How to convince wife to go to marriage counseling?

[Joseph_L_Varga]

And the picture that is emerging is a very different one than his initial post.

Joe, now that you say she’s the one refusing intercourse because she doesn’t want to become pregnant, it puts your lack of affection in a different light. No, it isn’t fair to demand your husband hug, kiss and cuddle you and then tell him he can only have intercourse once every 53 days. Not in words, but in fact.

That’s being a tease. And it’s very unfair.

Sounds like the lack of affection was a two-way street. She has behaved like a single woman for quite a few years. You can’t be married alone. And it sounds like you have been.

Your honesty here is very appealing and very refreshing to hear. Those of us who had husbands who blamed us for everything they did wrong would have loved to have a chance to fix our marriages with someone who wanted it to work. It seems your only-child wife has been the center of her own universe for a long time. To the point she doesn’t even want to have a child. Lots of selfishness going on there.

From what you’ve said, her contracepting from the wedding onward for a year and her denying you marital rights for 4 years deliberately avoiding pregnancy for a total of 5 years and her comments about not wanting children… you might want to talk to a priest about an annulment possibility. Do you love HER, or the person you want her to be? Or the person you once thought she was? You seem to be more than patient. She’s been abusing that patience.

I went back and reread your original post and I was right. There is more to this story. And it’s really not about her socializing or your not wanting to give her a hug now and then. This problem runs much deeper. She’s right. You won’t make her happy. But do you know something? I dont’ think anyone will. But she’s going to have to find that out the hard way. I’ve seen nothing but humility and respectfulness in your responses, no matter how much I’ve poked at you. You genuinely want to keep your vows. I don’t think she does. Did she ever is the question.

Don’t you think you deserve better in life, Joe, than someone who wants the company of everyone else but you and doesn’t seem to have made any effort to build a life with you in your new post-graduate home? Was that when things changed? You moved from her academic world and her party circle to the world of grown-ups and responsibility and she didn’t want any part of it?

You seem like a genuinely nice guy. Whatever insecurities you have from your teen years, you need to talk to someone about that. Your self image took a beating when you were younger. Your wife’s behavior can’t do anything but hurt it more. Do you know there are many women out there who would appreciate a kind man who is open to growing in his faith and improving himself? Is this the woman who will help you save your soul? In all her church activities, is her vow to help you achieve sanctity through marriage to her even on her radar? Even above children that is the primary aim of marriage.

If she can’t commit to keeping the vow to helping her own husband save his soul, all her medals from Church are worthless. There is a word for people like her… hypocrite.

She may be doing you a massive favor, letting you free while you are still young.

Gosh, these words seem so true to me. You had issues going on in your marriage for years now, but you are really a nice guy, Joe, and you could have worked out everything if your wife wanted to. And now my working hypothesis is this: she was unhappy and emotionally distant in this marriage (not primarily your fault, as Liberanosamalo pointed it out), and then suddenly someone else came along. That would explain why she suddenly wants to separate and doesn’t want to cooperate with you (priest, counseling) to fix the marriage…

 

[Sillara]

Again, what have YOU done to make being married to you better than being single for her?

I’m sorry, but that attitude is a recipe in and of itself for a rotten marriage. What do I get out of this? What is in it for me? If I had had that thought, I would have left my husband long ago, when things got “tough.” Now I would not have the wonderful marriage I do. I agree that the OP needs to try to work on showing more affection, and I agree that he should try to socialize with his wife. Growing apart is a very bad thing indeed. I just think that this idea of “what do I get out of this” is a poor foundation for marriage.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

I think Joe sounded in the beginning like he was taking on 80 to 90% of the blame for this situation. I think it’s way more on the other side.

Divorcing for frivolous reasons is a gravely serious matter. If she goes through with it, she endangers her soul. I would predict when she leaves you, her “church activities” will also nosedive. It sounds like it was more about her fellow man than God.

Now is the time for you to ask her point blank: “Did you ever believe marriage was permanent and exclusive?” (Critical to making your marriage legitimate.) If she believed so, she has to live that. If not, you never really were married canonically with the grace of the sacrament to help you along.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Sillara, my comment was for him about how much he GAVE, not for her, about what she gets. Of course no marriage can survive if that is the motivating goal… what’s in it for me. But if there was nothing in it for us to be married, who would do it?

As the many posts have borne out since then, this matter is more complicated than first indicated.

 

[dulcissima]

The details that are coming out now paint the picture that I thought that they would. I want to encourage you, Joe, to go to individual counseling. What your wife has been doing to you is very, very wrong. I will even go so far as to say that it is abuse. I do think that when a wife withholds sex like that it is a very powerful form of abuse.

Your description of your marriage is identical detail for detail to the marriage that my boyfriend was in. I was in an abusive marriage myself and can see the strong similarities between a woman like my boyfriends ex-wife and my ex-husband…and your wife as well. I am now divorced and annulled and I hope that you will talk to your priest and then a counselor. There is a better life out there for you, and I think you need to have some hope.

My boyfriend was just absolutely crushed by his ex-wife, who held having kids over him, who made him a house slave just for the chance to maybe have some sex, who day after day ruthlessly chipped away at his self esteem and made him solely responsible for her feelings. Walking on eggshells is no fun for anyone. She finally made him move out, told him that it was his fault that she needed to find someone new. He did it to her. “Is it any wonder I had to look elsewhere?”

I really hope that you can see that all of the blame and shame she would pile on you is nonsense. I really hope that you might be able to see that an awful lot of what she puts on you is probably really her projecting. It certainly seems to be the case as far as who doesn’t pay enough attention to whom.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

I reread the whole thread. Joe you are beating yourself up for not communicating better. But seriously, kids of parents who fight all the time go two ways. Either they grow up and fight all the time or they bottle it up and do everything they can not to rock the boat. They don’t want that kind of marriage their parents had. So they don’t probe issues that are festering. Peace at any price. Your lack of communication takes on a different face when looked at from that background. That is the kind of thing a good Catholic therapist can help you work on. Just recognizing it is 50% of the battle.

This paragraph you wrote lept out at me:

The problem is that she has also admitted that she has done some wrong and should have acted sooner, but I can tell she doesn’t feel as bad as I do. I’m fearful that if she won’t admit and correct these mistake now that she will just end up in the same situation down the road with another man.

Joe, you also said you were honest about meeting with her mom because you didn’t want to cause problems for her with her mom down the line.

Joe, you are too good for her. She isn’t caring that this is tearing your heart out and you’re worried some guy down the road will hurt her and you don’t want to mess up her relationship with her mom. Darn, that’s about as nice as a man can get.

I know what it’s like to have a spouse walk out the door because he thought the grass was greener. It really wasn’t. He’s miserable now. He’s had two fiancees leave him since he left me. But his leaving me was better for me in the long run once I got over the initial grief. Please take care of yourself. And get custody of the dogs. I’m sure they adore you and know YOU are the one who takes care of them. Eat. Even small meals. Get sleep. Call your brothers and talk to them. You might find that now that it’s “safe” they’ll start telling you all sorts of things about her and insights they never wanted to say before. People who knew you both when you were dating and engaged will be important witnesses should you ever have need for an annulment. I hate to go there, but everything you’ve written doesn’t give the situation much hope. It takes two to make a marriage but only one to end it.

I’ll pray for you. Keep getting closer to God. That WAS a good thing you did for her. She should have tried more to get closer to God along with you, not leaving you in the dust as she went on without you.

Dulcissima has much wisdom in her post, as usual. Not knowing more about your wife’s specific behavior, I hesitate to pull out the narcissist label, but she seems to be skating the edges there.

I am sorry if I seemed harsh in my original probing questions. Someone like my xh would have been answering and TYPING IN ALL CAPITAL LETTERS AND !!! within two posts calling me vile names. You didn’t. Your real nature and genuine talent for expressing yourself in a calm easy manner came through. You really need to be less hard on yourself. You’re a good Joe.

Keep us posted. We care here.

 

[whatevergirl]

I’ve had a busy day Joe, but I wanted to pop in and let you know I’m praying for you and your wife…don’t have much more to add, except to say, when people share stories like this, they often get a lot of varying answers…

No one is close to the situation but you and your wife…and God. I hope things can get resolved. God bless.

 

[GhostMan]

Liberanosamalo: I do not pick fights with anyone; neither have I called you out in this thread. If you are taking something I’m saying as being directed to you, that’s all on you. I will say, however, that once the tone of the thread moved from a “you are a worthless bum” type of thing to getting to the root cause, we saw a very different situation from some of the accusations that flared in the first few posts. For that, I am pleased. A brother came here looking for advice, not abuse and now he seems to be getting that. If that somehow makes you angry at me, I can take that.

I do believe, back to the OP, that there is probably something going on outside the marriage, and have since the first post. Now, we see she’s going away for a few days. Do you know why? Can you get in touch with her? What if you went to be with her this weekend, would she like that.

Friend, is she headed out this weekend for a clandestine tryst? If you do not have independant confirmation of her where-abouts, then I’d suggest you get it. Her behavior smacks of abuse: emotional and sexual.

You cannot repair a marriage while the other person is having an affair. You must absolutely rule out affair before taking another step. You can plant flowers and put a new coat of paint on a house that’s on fire - you put out the first first.

 

[JoeKR]

Joe, now that you say she’s the one refusing intercourse because she doesn’t want to become pregnant, it puts your lack of affection in a different light. No, it isn’t fair to demand your husband hug, kiss and cuddle you and then tell him he can only have intercourse once every 53 days. Not in words, but in fact.

From what you’ve said, her contracepting from the wedding onward for a year and her denying you marital rights for 4 years deliberately avoiding pregnancy for a total of 5 years and her comments about not wanting children… you might want to talk to a priest about an annulment possibility. Do you love HER, or the person you want her to be? Or the person you once thought she was? You seem to be more than patient. She’s been abusing that patience. .

I wouldn’t say she refused intercourse just to avoid pregnacy. I think overall she just isn’t interested much in intercourse. But, I do believe that avoiding pregnacy and withholding intercourse because of the lack of affection were PART of reason that she refused me intercourse.

The other thing I should clarify is that we both weren’t ready for children and I think we agreed on that. We wanted to wait until we were settled in our careers and financially stable. I wasn’t bugging her to have children and she was bugging me. But as I mentioned in a previous post, in the back of my mind recently I started to wonder when we would be ready, that we weren’t getting any younger, and it was odd that she wasn’t bringing up the subject.

 

[JoeKR]

I think Joe sounded in the beginning like he was taking on 80 to 90% of the blame for this situation. I think it’s way more on the other side.

Divorcing for frivolous reasons is a gravely serious matter. If she goes through with it, she endangers her soul. I would predict when she leaves you, her “church activities” will also nosedive. It sounds like it was more about her fellow man than God.

Now is the time for you to ask her point blank: “Did you ever believe marriage was permanent and exclusive?” (Critical to making your marriage legitimate.) If she believed so, she has to live that. If not, you never really were married canonically with the grace of the sacrament to help you along.

I think I’m starting to realize that I was taking on too much of the blame. I guess its just my easy going personality. I know she has admitted to much of the blame too, and I can’t forget that fact.

 

[JoeKR]

I reread the whole thread. Joe you are beating yourself up for not communicating better. But seriously, kids of parents who fight all the time go two ways. Either they grow up and fight all the time or they bottle it up and do everything they can not to rock the boat. They don’t want that kind of marriage their parents had. So they don’t probe issues that are festering. Peace at any price. Your lack of communication takes on a different face when looked at from that background. That is the kind of thing a good Catholic therapist can help you work on. Just recognizing it is 50% of the battle.

When this whole situation blew up between me and my wife this past weekend one of the things she said she had problems with is that I would just stop talking and shut up when we would start to argue about something. There are two main reasons for this. Liberanosamalo, I think you are correct in that since my parents fight all the time, I want to be different and not “rock the boat.” The second reason is that my wife is very difficult to argue with, and very stubborn. Many people over the years have told me in private conversations (and also a few times even when my wife was around) that essentially my wife was someone “you didn’t want to get into an arguement with.” They are always polie when they tell me this. I’ve seen it even with her mom. They would start to really argue about something and it would go on for a while and escalate, then when her mom saw it was useless and my wife would never compromise and fully understand, her mom would simply end the arguement by just saying “OK, you’re right. I’m sorry.”

 

[JoeKR]

I do believe, back to the OP, that there is probably something going on outside the marriage, and have since the first post. Now, we see she’s going away for a few days. Do you know why? Can you get in touch with her? What if you went to be with her this weekend, would she like that.

Friend, is she headed out this weekend for a clandestine tryst? If you do not have independant confirmation of her where-abouts, then I’d suggest you get it. Her behavior smacks of abuse: emotional and sexual.

You cannot repair a marriage while the other person is having an affair. You must absolutely rule out affair before taking another step. You can plant flowers and put a new coat of paint on a house that’s on fire - you put out the first first.

She went away for one night last weekend after she announced she wanted a separation. She told me where she was going, but I’m not sure it was the truth. I think there are a couple reason why she is trying to stay away. One is that she wants to move on with her life, and another is that she likely wants the separation to be official under civil law. The last reason that I fear is that there is another man as many people who responded here have thought. She will be at least around, if not staying with this particular man for these next few days. I asked her several times about him and the extent of their relationship. She always states that he is her “best” friend right now. He is also going through a separation with his wife. I find it odd that he is her “best” friend now. She has many long time friends, but this man has really only been her friend for maybe a year at most. I can understand how they could connect if they are both going through a separation, but their closeness is a bit too much and sudden.

I have some suspicions and evidence now that they are more than friends but i wont go into the details at this point on this forum. Maybe when I know more I will reveal the information.

 

[JoeKR]

I got some rest last night, but really didn’t sleep much as I had so many thoughts running through my mind again. Another thing I thought of and wanted to admit to is that there was a period of about one year where I was sleeping in a different room than my wife. There are a couple reasons for this in my mind. First, the younger dog was sleeping in our bed on a regular basis. I’m an extremely light sleeper and have enough trouble sleeping when the conditions are perfect. The dog on the bed was keeping me awake and I wasn’t getting much sleep over the course of many months. I found myself needing to sleep very late on the weekends to catch up on sleep that I missed during the weekdays. i know I should have corrected the situation and got the dog off the bed. My wife wasn’t helping much, but I do admit we BOTH at least tried a few times and obviously failed. As you can imagine the other reason for me moving to another bedroom was that I was upset that my wife was constantly rejecting my sexual advances and it was catching up with me. My wife asked me many times to start sleeping in the same bed again and that it was wrong that we weren’t sleeping together. I knew it bothered her to a great extent. I’m not sure what changed my mind, but I think I eventually gave into my wife’s request and started sleeping in the same bed again about a year ago. I’ve learned to just live with the situation. The dog is still in the bed, but is older now and doesn’t bother me as much as before.

I (and my wife too) was wrong for not correcting the sleeping situation, I know that now. But I also recognize there are deeper problems that we weren’t dealing with in our marriage.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Joe, many of us have had to go through that, but not with a dog, with a baby. Sometimes if dad has to get up early, he sleeps where he can get his sleep while the baby moves and makes noise. Stop apologizing for that. That didn’t ruin your marriage.

Did your wife meet her “best friend” at church? If he’s a church guy, you need to talk to your priest. Not to tattle, but to let him know there is the potential for scandal. If they are on committees together or something, and she has left you and is hanging out with him, the pastor has the right to know. Otherwise he looks like he’s condoning it.

You should be her “best friend.” I think you know that. And what you’ve said about her arguing tactics… been there done that. It’s easier to give up and tell them “yes, of course” than continue.

I know this hurts. Maybe the new friend dude can take her off your hands. Stop and ask yourself… do you REALLY want her back? If you know she’s having some kind of affair, if she came back, would you ever trust her again? Or would every time she went off to a “church meeting” you’d grow an ulcer wondering where she really was. And then she’d come home and blame YOU for being “paranoid” and “suspicious” and tell you she’s “insulted by the implications of your questions.” (I got that from a husband who was coming in at 2:30 am one night.)

Seriously, I think her “best friend” should be your “best friend.” He has no idea what he has taken off your hands. A mirage… an untrustworthy one. She’s playing a big fake game. You’ve known her for years. You know and love the real her. He loves a chimera.

Her combative personality was attracted to your easy-going laid back personality because she got to have center attention and you were content to let her take the spotlight. And she took advantage of that. As long as you dont’ disagree with her, everything is great.

Change the genders, that was my marriage. And he did the same thing about withholding affection. I spent the last 3.5 years of my marriage living as his maid with no marital relations. Lies, lies, lies and a secretive life that he claimed was “going to work.” I was not a part of it. Till he announced he was leaving and needed to be on his own for six months to sort things out. Yeah, right.

You’ve had a chance here to sort through a lot of ideas and present and re-present your situation to get to the root of the matter. That’s the kind of thing a counselor will do for you and the kind of information you’ve given us is the kind of thing a lawyer will be interested in. And the priest. And a tribunal if it gets to that.

There’s a few other threads here with women going through the kind of beat-down you’ve been given. You might want to read them and the embedded thread there about narcissists. Might ring a few bells for you and clarify your thoughts to see how it looks from the outside looking in from people who’ve walked in your shoes. I don’t often get to hear about women narcissists. Most of them are men. But the women do things in a different way. They don’t beat you up, but they find different ways to shred your soul.

You will live through this, you know. She’ll do the same thing to her “best friend” eventually. Never happy with what she has? Yeah, you don’t need that.

 

[whatevergirl]

Joe, I’m so sorry this is happening. My dh and I had our share of problems, and I largely take the blame…as I wasn’t always an affectionate and caring wife to him. Through God, prayer and counseling…we got help, and our marriage was rescued literally by God. That being said, it takes two as you know, to make that happen.

I hate to sound suspicious, we don’t know one another…nor do I know your wife…but typically…TYPICALLY…if communication is the problem in a marriage, people can find a way to get help and save their marriage…if they are willing. But, your wife’s refusal to work on things, and wanting a separation, and going away for the night…I don’t think she involved with a man, per se…but, I have a feeling…just a hunch, that someone is turning her head. Telling her nice things, that perhaps you stopped saying along the way. Hey, I don’t blame you, please know I don’t mean it like that. But, marriage isn’t always a walk in the park…gazing into one another’s eyes…as if it were the second date. Marriage has ups and downs, and if she is looking for no downs, she will be disappointed in ANOTHER man and relationship, should she divorce you.

But, that’s a big leap…we don’t know. But, when women in particular turn their backs on their marriage over communication, as that being the excuse…and an unwilling nature to work on things…typically, another person has come into play.

I hope that is NOT the case, but just keep your eyes and ears open. Don’t accuse, but I wouldn’t play naive either.

I will praying hard that your wife is enlightened to coming back to you.

God bless.

 

[JoeKR]

Thanks again to everyone for the thoughtful responses and taking the time to help me sort this situation out. I will be contacting the two priests at my Church and asking to talk to at least one of them soon. Does anyone see any problem with me sending them a link to this forum and thread so they can maybe read through all the information I provided prior to me meeting with them? I realize there is some very personal stuff that I have revealed here, but if that information helps them understand what is going on then I’m OK sharing it. There is LOTS of information and I’m afraid of leaving stuff out in a face-to-face chat.

 

[kage_ar]

My guess, she married you and thought she could change you, make you into her ideal “perfect man” who is mr social butterfly. She craves attention because she has little or no self esteem.

She has found a man who is feeding her fantasy.

Prayers that God can heal your marriage.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Joe, why don’t you go through the thread and cut and paste anything you feel is relevant to helping sort things through on a Word document. That might present a better appearance than giving them a thread. And as you sort through it, you can add anything private that you would rather not put on a public forum but would be important to discuss with the priest.

 

[Island_Oak]

…Both parties in a marriage age called to serve the other. Find ways to be her servant and love her. Don’t tolerate emotional abuse. Start acting like a man, not the macho angry stereotype so many people have, but the strong, loving, patient man who can stand up for himself in a positve way, yet can also be a humble, penitent man when he is in the worng.

…This problem runs much deeper. She’s right. You won’t make her happy. But do you know something? I dont’ think anyone will. But she’s going to have to find that out the hard way. I’ve seen nothing but humility and respectfulness in your responses, no matter how much I’ve poked at you. You genuinely want to keep your vows. I don’t think she does. Did she ever is the question.

Some good points. Best wishes, Joe. I’m so encouraged that you are taking this to a priest for some support and perhaps guidance. I sincerely hope you find a way to resolve your dilema.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

…I don’t think she involved with a man, per se…but, I have a feeling…just a hunch, that someone is turning her head. Telling her nice things, that perhaps you stopped saying along the way.

I will also add, I know someone who got infected with gonorrhea and that was the final thing that made him understand that his wife was cheating on him, because she was denying it. (Well, that was me some 20 years ago ) Gonorrhea can be treated and cured with antibiotics. HIV/AIDS, HPV, and genital herpes CANNOT. If you have a suspicion of your wife having a “best friend”, you must abstain from her. You never know what’s going on, what is she not admitting to you, and you should play it safe. Also, you may need to talk to a lawyer. Fortunately you don’t have kids.