How to counter the LGBT/leftist onslaught?

[TaylorDonBarret]

Hello, all. I don’t know about you, but I’m outraged/terrified at the incredible aggression that we’ve been seeing from the anti-christian left over the past few years.

Here’s a quick summary of the overall trends I notice:

• The LGBT crowd is convincing the world that Christians and specifically Catholics are the villains of this story, simply because we hold to the revealed truth about sodomy and similar forms of sexual dysfunction.
• Meanwhile, the pro-abortion crowd has been quite successful promoting the claim that the Catholic Church is against women’s freedom.
• Catholics and Christians in general are being fired from their jobs, harrassed, fined, jailed, and even physically assaulted for proclaiming the truth about these issues. (See what liberals are doing to the Freedom Bus if you want a recent reminder.)
• Massive social media companies such as Google, DeviantArt, Facebook, and Twitter are deploying attrition tactics to gain more converts for these twisted ideologies on a daily basis.
• All over the world, activist pro-LGBT legislation is having our children indoctrinated into the SOGI ideology, and passing “gag laws” that impose criminal penalties on anybody who dares contradict the Rainbow Fuhrer.
• Catholic voices are being systematically ridiculed, marginalized and criminalized worldwide.

So the question is… what are we to do? How can we, as lay Catholics, come up with effective strategies or tactics to do our part in the culture wars, and fight for the Kingdom of God in the midst of this grim ideological battle?

To begin with, I think it important to understand that sin requires full knowledge and voluntary consent.

Many within the LGBT community simply do not believe that their behavior is wrong.

Thus, while the behavior is indeed objectively sinful, many simply aren’t culpable for their actions.

And I do not think it possible to minister to this community, or to speak the truth on this issue, until we fully realize the implications of this.

 

[Cherripeeps]

@SuperLuigi

Hey! Thank you very much for sharing your insights; I really appreciate them. I agree with you on most of your obsevations, and I think that you’re bringing up important issues I wasn’t seeing before. I’d just like to respond to some of your comments in more detail:

…[K]now that a lot of this stems from excuse-making and Christians and other religious not understanding the arguments. The arguments in terms of so-called gay “marriage” were woefully inadequate and embarrassing frankly outside of what myself and Adam Kosalinski were making. They were nothing more than just appeals to authority (because Bible says so) and arm-chair moral activism by thinking the government would fix the problem.

Perhaps the reason why the Bible was held up as a source of authority in the gay “marriage” debate is because many liberals and LGBT supporters are Christians of some kind. Inherently, there’s nothing wrong with Biblical arguments: The Bible is our official source of revealed truth, and right faith can correct the errors of reason poorly used.

However, Biblical arguments are unlikely to be very convincing to non-Christians. So you bring up a good point there – being able to wield a broad range of arguments correctly is crucial. If we aspire to be effective, we need to be able to put forth a solid case for the truth, no matter who we’re talking to. After all, the truth is reasonable.

The skeptic community in general has taken up the mantle and is fighting back on social media and with some urgency as they see the threat for what it is.

I wasn’t aware that the skeptics were also getting involved, pushing back against the left’s transgressions. That’s interesting.

1. Learn about post-modernism. Read “Explaining Post-Modernism” by Steven Hicks and watch some videos created by Dr. Jordan B. Peterson. I will say this only once: If Catholics cannot be bothered to understand this, they have little chance of getting anywhere with anyone.

I know about post-modernism! I was a raving postmodern when I went to college, a few years ago. But I’ll go right ahead and posit that postmodernism is not the only problem. The issue is that there’s a cluster of neomarxist discourses that are being taught at universities. And you’re right; these are what’s destroying our young and our societies, and the challenges that they pose need to be addressed.

I really like your zero-tolerance approach to Christian laziness. Making excuses to escape our prophetic obligation will get us nowhere.

I’m about to start a lay apostolate that’s all about disseminating the Truth and countering the ideologies of error on the interwebz. The aim is to produce material that non-academics can understand and use to empower themselves in the cultural wars. Could I possibly interest you in being part of it?

 

[Cherripeeps]

TaylorDonBarret:

To begin with, I think it important to understand that sin requires full knowledge and voluntary consent.

Many within the LGBT community simply do not believe that their behavior is wrong.

Thus, while the behavior is indeed objectively sinful, many simply aren’t culpable for their actions.

And I do not think it possible to minister to this community, or to speak the truth on this issue, until we fully realize the implications of this.

Well – the only answer is to tell them the truth.

You’re right – a person is culpable insofar as they know or have a clear sense that what they’re doing is wrong.

That’s why it’s a spiritual work of mercy to tell people that they are engaging in sin. To allow people to continue living an immoral life for fear of upsetting them is not mercy; it’s diabolical. If you love someone, you have to tell them the truth about their actions.

 

[Cherripeeps]

@jcrichton

I’m glad that our views overlap on various points!

Yes, I agree that the world is allergic to politically active Catholics who openly bring the faith into the public arena. And I agree that many Catholics refuse to enter the fray because they don’t want to be persecuted – because they see that persecution is the fate of Catholics who dare to exercise their prophetic duty in public.

You know, this Sunday’s Gospel reading – the parable of the wheat and the darnel – is so relevant to what you’re saying. The priest was saying that some people are wheat and choose to work for God’s Kingdom. But others are indifferent and/or just want to be friends of the world, have a fun easy life just minding their own business. This latter group Father equated to darnel, which chokes the wheat and saps the resources that it needs to grow. The very presence of the darnel sabotages the growing of the wheat, and the presence of lukewarm or traitorous Catholics definitely slows down the work of the truly faithful ones.

So yes, there’s definitely the problem of momentum. There’s ignorance, fear, and indifference in the Church. But in the field of physics, inertia only works against you when you’re pushing an object from completely motionless to slow motion. The more you keep pushing, the more inertia actually starts to work in your favor.

This is a perfect example of several factors at work: Faith, poor Catechism, lukewarm understanding and commitment, the snares of the world (Satan), Prayer and Faith at work, God’s Mercy and Patience, and finally humble Obedience to the Call of the Holy Spirit!

It’s also the story of so many other people. We just need to work very hard to get their story to end well.

This is excellent!

My one suggestion to you is that you avail yourself with as much support as possible. Even as a Catholic Lay person you will be representing the Church so you must be aware of Church Doctrine; this means that it is important for you to network… contact EWTN they have some experience in the Communication Field (television, radio, newspaper, internet…); then there are the advantages of having both Church and private experts to aide you both in content and in dissimilation.

Aye aye, gotta study so much. Bible, the Catechism, Church history, philosophy, apologetics… But, hey! Every surgeon has to know his anatomy.

Networking also seems like a good idea. I hope I can eventually reach out to Church Militant. I hear EWTN has given into the tyranny of the Church of Nice now that Mother Angelica’s gone, but Church Militant will remain a bastion of truth even if the rest of the Christian world goes down in flames.

 

[mkoopman]

Well – the only answer is to tell them the truth.

You’re right – a person is culpable insofar as they know or have a clear sense that what they’re doing is wrong.

That’s why it’s a spiritual work of mercy to tell people that they are engaging in sin. To allow people to continue living an immoral life for fear of upsetting them is not mercy; it’s diabolical. If you love someone, you have to tell them the truth about their actions.

Diabolic from many quarters, miscommunication is a key. This key unlocks not Pandora’s chest but pure gruesome hate. They will have their pagan amusement world.
I concur with the less than joyfully hopeful tone of the original post. We are all China now. Gee, isn’t two child policy wonderful?

 

[Cherripeeps]

Diabolic from many quarters, miscommunication is a key. This key unlocks not Pandora’s chest but pure gruesome hate. They will have their pagan amusement world.
I concur with the less than joyfully hopeful tone of the original post. We are all China now. Gee, isn’t two child policy wonderful?

As the OP, I say we militate. We’re the Church Militant! That’s what we’re here for.

Look at it this way: worst case scenario, you’re killed proclaiming the truth, which would make you a martyr. How cool is that?

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

Well – the only answer is to tell them the truth.

You’re right – a person is culpable insofar as they know or have a clear sense that what they’re doing is wrong.

That’s why it’s a spiritual work of mercy to tell people that they are engaging in sin. To allow people to continue living an immoral life for fear of upsetting them is not mercy; it’s diabolical. If you love someone, you have to tell them the truth about their actions.

We are not called to speak the truth. We are called to speak the truth in love.

There is a difference between the two. One draws a person into the love of Christ, one pushes them away from Him.

If you are ever going to serve God, and draw the LGBT person into His arms, you must begin with the same position that Christ began with when He first approached you.

He did not come at you with condemnation, rather, He came at you with the message of forgiveness and love. Yes, it is important to inform people’s consciences. At the same time, someone who does not know the love of Christ should not be confronted with a sin they do not even believe is sinful. Such is only going to push them away from God, instead of draw them in.

If you must begin with ethics, begin with the ethics that they will agree are truly ethical. Only then will then understand their need for a Savior. But to try to get them to call out for saving by condemning them for a crime they do not even think is evil will only make them call into question the soundness of your reasoning.

The LGBT person will not usually respond to the idea that LGBT behavior is sinful. But they will agree that lying, cheating, and stealing are sinful. The point of the law is to make us aware of our need for Saving. Pointing to LGBT behavior will not make the LGBT person feel guilty. But it is possible it will make them feel as if God does not love them. It is only after they have come to know the love of God in Christ that they are likely to respond positively to the message of natural sexual ethics.

 

[Cherripeeps]

@TaylorDonBarret

Jesus was speaking the truth in love when he got himself a whip and chased the Jewish salesmen out of the Temple.

If you look at the Gospel you can see the Lord was extremely frank, even to the point of aggression sometimes. “Get away from me, Satan!”, “Woe to you, Pharisees,” “You brood of vipers,” and many other incidents would point to this.

Therefore I would say there’s a legitimate place for frankness and even harshness in truth-telling. People can and do respond when things are simply called by their right name, however impleasant that may sound.

Jesus never came at me in the sweet-and-gentle image lots of people have of him. On the contrary – I hated the Church because it was firm and uncompromising in things I did not want to be true. In my experience, people don’t benefit at all from being babied and pampered and fed with cherry-picked words. We’re talking to adults, and we need to treat them as such, engaging them in an honest and rational manner.

I never said, however, that we should tackle the matter from a place of condemnation. Not even the Church herself does this on the issue of homosexuality. Thus, while asserting our sympathy and respect for the individual sufferers of same-sex attraction or sexual dysphoria, we need to put forth compelling and honest arguments to denounce the open practice of homosexuality and transgenderism for what they are – that is, as things that are objectively wrong and that deprive the person of the fullness of human experience.

We should be able to make it clear that God loves the sinner, but hates the sin. If we can’t get this simple point across to the LGBT crowd, then we’ve failed as apostles and evangelists.

 

[reggieM]

@TaylorDonBarret

Jesus was speaking the truth in love when he got himself a whip and chased the Jewish salesmen out of the Temple.

If you look at the Gospel you can see the Lord was extremely frank, even to the point of aggression sometimes. “Get away from me, Satan!”, “Woe to you, Pharisees,” “You brood of vipers,” and many other incidents would point to this.

Therefore I would say there’s a legitimate place for frankness and even harshness in truth-telling. People can and do respond when things are simply called by their right name, however impleasant that may sound.

Jesus never came at me in the sweet-and-gentle image lots of people have of him. On the contrary – I hated the Church because it was firm and uncompromising in things I did not want to be true. In my experience, people don’t benefit at all from being babied and pampered and fed with cherry-picked words. We’re talking to adults, and we need to treat them as such, engaging them in an honest and rational manner.

I never said, however, that we should tackle the matter from a place of condemnation. Not even the Church herself does this on the issue of homosexuality. Thus, while asserting our sympathy and respect for the individual sufferers of same-sex attraction or sexual dysphoria, we need to put forth compelling and honest arguments to denounce the open practice of homosexuality and transgenderism for what they are – that is, as things that are objectively wrong and that deprive the person of the fullness of human experience.

We should be able to make it clear that God loves the sinner, but hates the sin. If we can’t get this simple point across to the LGBT crowd, then we’ve failed as apostles and evangelists.

Good points. Sometimes we all need that hard message. And Jesus will give it to us – He wants to correct us and often that is the only way.
What happens too often is that love of the sinner shifts over to tolerance or excuse of the sin. Correcting our neighbor or brothers and sisters is a very difficult thing to do well, however, and it’s a special calling. It needs to be led and directed by the grace of God, otherwise it can do a lot of harm.

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

@TaylorDonBarret

Jesus was speaking the truth in love when he got himself a whip and chased the Jewish salesmen out of the Temple.

If you look at the Gospel you can see the Lord was extremely frank, even to the point of aggression sometimes. “Get away from me, Satan!”, “Woe to you, Pharisees,” “You brood of vipers,” and many other incidents would point to this.

Therefore I would say there’s a legitimate place for frankness and even harshness in truth-telling. People can and do respond when things are simply called by their right name, however impleasant that may sound.

Jesus never came at me in the sweet-and-gentle image lots of people have of him. On the contrary – I hated the Church because it was firm and uncompromising in things I did not want to be true. In my experience, people don’t benefit at all from being babied and pampered and fed with cherry-picked words. We’re talking to adults, and we need to treat them as such, engaging them in an honest and rational manner.

I never said, however, that we should tackle the matter from a place of condemnation. Not even the Church herself does this on the issue of homosexuality. Thus, while asserting our sympathy and respect for the individual sufferers of same-sex attraction or sexual dysphoria, we need to put forth compelling and honest arguments to denounce the open practice of homosexuality and transgenderism for what they are – that is, as things that are objectively wrong and that deprive the person of the fullness of human experience.

We should be able to make it clear that God loves the sinner, but hates the sin. If we can’t get this simple point across to the LGBT crowd, then we’ve failed as apostles and evangelists.

While I agree with everything your saying, your entire tact and approach to even myself, someone who began with the explicit statement that LGBT behaviors are objectively sinful, indicates to me that your understanding of how to approach this issue with LGBT people is inadequate.

Jesus could be extremely frank and aggressive if He wanted to do so. He is God. Such behavior would not be hypocritical for Him; and He would know the proper circumstances in which such an approach would have the potential to produce fruit in the lives of those being addressed.

But Jesus is not the sort of man who would be extremely frank and aggressive with someone if they did not understand that what they were doing was wrong. He would only do so when He knew for certain that the people knew what they were doing was wrong and were doing it anyway. And such is not the case with you and me when we address LGBT people in this day and age.

What did the Apostle St. Paul say? “I determined to know nothing among you except Christ crucified.” The message to the unbelieving world is that “God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.” The message to the unbelieving LGBT community is that Christ loves them and that Christ died for them. Once they come to know Him and His Love, only then should we even expect them to listen to what Christ thinks about ethics.

 

[Cherripeeps]

@TaylorDonBarret

Hey! I’m glad we’re on the same page on most of the essential aspects of this issue.

Of course, the Lord Jesus was very prudent in applying his temperament. He spoke harshly and He spoke kindly at the times when each tone was warranted. And indeed we should do the same, and we need to develop an acute evangelical intuition, to speak the truth effectively in every situation. I’m only trying to make the point that speaking the truth in love sometimes entails upsetting your neighbor.

I was actually a staunch LGBT supporter before I reverted to the faith. Like you, I care deeply for LGBT people and wish for their happiness – and most especially, I wish for them to have eternal life.

I apologize if I sounded a little harsh in my previous post. Still, I insist: We need to reject the attitude of protectionism that has come to pervade the air whenever the LGBT crowd is mentioned. We act like they’re these poor, fragile things: gotta keep them in “safe zones”, never say the word “sin” around them, or they’ll break. In truth, I think even the harshest Christian upbraiding wouldn’t even come close to the things they’re doing to Christians – getting people fired or put out of business or sent to prison, burning chapels, assaulting civilians, issuing death threats against pro-family academics, suing pastors, vandalizing property, ghost-banning Catholic pages from social media, bullying pro-family people online…

I’m not advocating for a spirit of vindictiveness. I’m only saying that LGBT peeps are not a victim group and we shouldn’t treat them like that. They’re people who are opting for a certain lifestyle, and we need to do our job and let them know that said lifestyle is wrong, and it’s harmful to its own practitioners.

So, I firmly believe we need to exercise our prophetic duty - for the sake of LGBT people themselves. Proposing Jesus as their savior is vital, but it’s not enough; after all, in our era it’s easy to profess faith in Jesus and support the slaughter of children in the womb. St. Paul himself noted that even the demons in Hell believe in Jesus, so simply believing in him won’t necessarily get you to Heaven. In the end, “Not all who call me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in Heaven.”

Is it true that God judges each man according to how he responded to Him in his heart? Yes, absolutely. Nonetheless, we should be deeply concerned that an entire generation of people is being deprived of access to Truth, because spiritual ignorance leads to habitual sin, which in turn entails an ever greater risk of eventually forfeiting one’s salvation. And we need to do something about this problem.

And we don’t even need to be like, super overbearing about it. I can talk to an openly homosexual person and tell them: “This is absolutely not an attack on your dignity as a person, but I have to tell you that the homosexual lifestyle that you’re pursuing is wrong. It’s doing you more harm than good, and I have the data to prove it if you want me to. If I tell you this, it’s because as a Catholic I care about you and I desire your well-being.” Of course, one needs to be armed with knowledge, facts, and solid arguments before approaching people in this manner – and as you rightly point out, we should strive to speak in a charitable and reasonable way. But the fact is, if I love my neighbor, I need to help him out of his misery.

Again, it all comes down to this: God loves the sinner, but hates the sin. We need to speak up and let LGBT people know the truth about their condition with this axiom in mind.

 

[Cherripeeps]

reggieM:

Good points. Sometimes we all need that hard message. And Jesus will give it to us – He wants to correct us and often that is the only way.

What happens too often is that love of the sinner shifts over to tolerance or excuse of the sin. Correcting our neighbor or brothers and sisters is a very difficult thing to do well, however, and it’s a special calling. It needs to be led and directed by the grace of God, otherwise it can do a lot of harm.

I really like your point of view. Except, I think actually everyone should be engaged in the practice of correcting our neighbor, for their own sake. After all, the Lord Jesus commanded us to do it (Mt 18:15).

I do agree, though, that telling the uncomfortable truth to one’s neighbor is an art that demands care and honing. Correction should ideally be deployed with just the right balance of charity, firmness, and clarity of mind. Then again, I believe that you can only really achieve that balance through practice and education in the faith. St Peter wrote: “Always be ready to give reason of the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and reverence.” (1 Pt 3:15.)

 

[jcrichton]

To begin with, I think it important to understand that sin requires full knowledge and voluntary consent.

Many within the LGBT community simply do not believe that their behavior is wrong.

Thus, while the behavior is indeed objectively sinful, many simply aren’t culpable for their actions.

And I do not think it possible to minister to this community, or to speak the truth on this issue, until we fully realize the implications of this.

Hi, Taylor!

I would by that from children around age 3 and 5… but when people claim to want to be in the Church or fight to silence the Church… well, that’s not because they are ignorant of Sacred Scriptures, the Ten Commandments or Church Doctrine… it is because they reject it…

…a few weeks ago a man took a car and crashed it on a display of the Ten Commandments… cause his sensibilities were creased; he had done the exact same thing in another state… defacing a Christian symbol because he is against it–even if he never ever read the Bible and even if he never ever had a single person mention the word “Jesus,” this man is acting out against Faith/God… ignorance is not bliss and always the means to excuse unrighteousness!

…ever notice how young children quiet down when they are up to no good? They determined to get into whatever it was commanded of them to keep their hands off… so they go into the that silence mode… when parents/guardians follow the silence… they meet up with a rebellious act!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Cherripeeps]

Hi, Taylor!

I would by that from children around age 3 and 5… but when people claim to want to be in the Church or fight to silence the Church… well, that’s not because they are ignorant of Sacred Scriptures, the Ten Commandments or Church Doctrine… it is because they reject it…

…a few weeks ago a man took a car and crashed it on a display of the Ten Commandments… cause his sensibilities were creased; he had done the exact same thing in another state… defacing a Christian symbol because he is against it–even if he never ever read the Bible and even if he never ever had a single person mention the word “Jesus,” this man is acting out against Faith/God… ignorance is not bliss and always the means to excuse unrighteousness!

…ever notice how young children quiet down when they are up to no good? They determined to get into whatever it was commanded of them to keep their hands off… so they go into the that silence mode… when parents/guardians follow the silence… they meet up with a rebellious act!

That’s a great point. That’s exactly what I did when I was a child, lol

I think it’s hard for someone to innocently commit sin. Especially when it comes to public lifestyle sins like embracing abortion and gender ideology. Natural law is just written in our hearts, so even when one is uninformed, the conscience always goads. But then on the other hand, it’s possible, when one is young, to be induced into evil in such a way that the voice of natural law can be silenced as the conscience becomes completely distorted.

Of course we don’t have the authority to tell exactly how culpable other people are – that’s up to God alone – but what we should be doing is to give them the information they need to identify sin for what it is and reject it from their lives.

 

[jcrichton]

@jcrichton

I’m glad that our views overlap on various points!

Yes, I agree that the world is allergic to politically active Catholics who openly bring the faith into the public arena. And I agree that many Catholics refuse to enter the fray because they don’t want to be persecuted – because they see that persecution is the fate of Catholics who dare to exercise their prophetic duty in public.

You know, this Sunday’s Gospel reading – the parable of the wheat and the darnel – is so relevant to what you’re saying. The priest was saying that some people are wheat and choose to work for God’s Kingdom. But others are indifferent and/or just want to be friends of the world, have a fun easy life just minding their own business. This latter group Father equated to darnel, which chokes the wheat and saps the resources that it needs to grow. The very presence of the darnel sabotages the growing of the wheat, and the presence of lukewarm or traitorous Catholics definitely slows down the work of the truly faithful ones.

So yes, there’s definitely the problem of momentum. There’s ignorance, fear, and indifference in the Church. But in the field of physics, inertia only works against you when you’re pushing an object from completely motionless to slow motion. The more you keep pushing, the more inertia actually starts to work in your favor.

It’s also the story of so many other people. We just need to work very hard to get their story to end well.

Aye aye, gotta study so much. Bible, the Catechism, Church history, philosophy, apologetics… But, hey! Every surgeon has to know his anatomy.

Networking also seems like a good idea. I hope I can eventually reach out to Church Militant. I hear EWTN has given into the tyranny of the Church of Nice now that Mother Angelica’s gone, but Church Militant will remain a bastion of truth even if the rest of the Christian world goes down in flames.

Hi!

…yeah, we have many points of congruence… it is one of the thins you’re going to need… search for people who are willing to be active Catholics… not just lumps on a log.

…as for the parable of the wheat, did you note that both elements were allowed to grow together… God can use Believers to help Convict non-Believers; so it is important to remain active in spite of how difficult it might get in the trenches!

…don’t be afraid of the enormity of project–you don’t need to become an “expert” in every subject… allow the Holy Spirit to Assist you and Guide you!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

We are not called to speak the truth. We are called to speak the truth in love.

There is a difference between the two. One draws a person into the love of Christ, one pushes them away from Him.

If you are ever going to serve God, and draw the LGBT person into His arms, you must begin with the same position that Christ began with when He first approached you.

He did not come at you with condemnation, rather, He came at you with the message of forgiveness and love. Yes, it is important to inform people’s consciences. At the same time, someone who does not know the love of Christ should not be confronted with a sin they do not even believe is sinful. Such is only going to push them away from God, instead of draw them in.

If you must begin with ethics, begin with the ethics that they will agree are truly ethical. Only then will then understand their need for a Savior. But to try to get them to call out for saving by condemning them for a crime they do not even think is evil will only make them call into question the soundness of your reasoning.

The LGBT person will not usually respond to the idea that LGBT behavior is sinful. But they will agree that lying, cheating, and stealing are sinful. The point of the law is to make us aware of our need for Saving. Pointing to LGBT behavior will not make the LGBT person feel guilty. But it is possible it will make them feel as if God does not love them. It is only after they have come to know the love of God in Christ that they are likely to respond positively to the message of natural sexual ethics.

Hi, Taylor!

…that’s the sin of hubris!

…regardless upon the sin, the sinner rejects any responsibility… it is hollowood’s spirituality: everything is acceptable to God and if you do not accept responsibility you did not commit the sin… yeah, right!

…did you know that there are some in the US who relish the idea of being “anarchists?” They actually believe that if they claim that they do not accept the US government’s authority that they can refuse to pay taxes and abide by any and all civil laws?

Ignorance (or pretense) is not a blanket “get out of it free” seal!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Good points. Sometimes we all need that hard message. And Jesus will give it to us – He wants to correct us and often that is the only way.
What happens too often is that love of the sinner shifts over to tolerance or excuse of the sin. Correcting our neighbor or brothers and sisters is a very difficult thing to do well, however, and it’s a special calling. It needs to be led and directed by the grace of God, otherwise it can do a lot of harm.

Hi, Reggie!

…then there’s that “don’t judge me, and I won’t judge you” philosophy–Catholics are buying into to this one… it began with contraception and divorce… now it’s in the abortion and civil unions facets…

That’s a great position to hold–one hand whitewashes the other!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

While I agree with everything your saying, your entire tact and approach to even myself, someone who began with the explicit statement that LGBT behaviors are objectively sinful, indicates to me that your understanding of how to approach this issue with LGBT people is inadequate.

Jesus could be extremely frank and aggressive if He wanted to do so. He is God. Such behavior would not be hypocritical for Him; and He would know the proper circumstances in which such an approach would have the potential to produce fruit in the lives of those being addressed.

But Jesus is not the sort of man who would be extremely frank and aggressive with someone if they did not understand that what they were doing was wrong. He would only do so when He knew for certain that the people knew what they were doing was wrong and were doing it anyway. And such is not the case with you and me when we address LGBT people in this day and age.

What did the Apostle St. Paul say? “I determined to know nothing among you except Christ crucified.” The message to the unbelieving world is that “God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.” The message to the unbelieving LGBT community is that Christ loves them and that Christ died for them. Once they come to know Him and His Love, only then should we even expect them to listen to what Christ thinks about ethics.

Hi, Taylor!

…so if my brethren does drugs and alcohol I should pour out the drinks and get them the pipes and other tools?

There’s one experience which I’ll not soon forget… there’s this kid I know; he is mentally challenged… one day thei brought him to school and the people there decided to celebrate the coupling of these same sex partners… remember the kid is mentally challenged… he was forced to partake of this event… he became very frustrated, angry even… his mom had to go and get him… there was no explanation… nothing wrong was done to him… it was a day as usual… with the exception of the same sex celebration… this young man who is mentally challenged knew in his mind and heart that two of the same does not make a “marriage.”

…yet, you are saying that people with healthy minds are unable to discern that they are doing something detestable to God… not only that but those who claim to be Christians cannot understand, from Scriptures, that they are following Satan’s counsel by embracing homosexuality?

…and are you aware that “God so loved the world…” is closely followed by “they would not come into the Light because they loved sin rather than the Light?”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

That’s a great point. That’s exactly what I did when I was a child, lol

I think it’s hard for someone to innocently commit sin. Especially when it comes to public lifestyle sins like embracing abortion and gender ideology. Natural law is just written in our hearts, so even when one is uninformed, the conscience always goads. But then on the other hand, it’s possible, when one is young, to be induced into evil in such a way that the voice of natural law can be silenced as the conscience becomes completely distorted.

Of course we don’t have the authority to tell exactly how culpable other people are – that’s up to God alone – but what we should be doing is to give them the information they need to identify sin for what it is and reject it from their lives.

Hi!

…there’s no way that we can pass judgment on people–not even on ourselves; but knowing that something is not right and pretending that it is ok is not the same thing… yes, if a child is brought up in a behavior and he/she is taught that that is correct, there’s little that that child will be able to glim from any source that would not support his/her understanding…

Yet, you’ve mentioned a little thing called conscience; God actually appeals to us through our conscience… and He places us in situations to bring up the issues so that we can be reinforced…

The first thing about homosexuality is that it rejects anything that points to it being wrong; the second thing is that it exerts itself forcefully into the environment; the third thing is that it has a very low threshold for anger and violence; the fourth point is that it demands that it be accepted as a correct “Christian” alternative lifestyle.

This is the starting point for viewing and dealing with homosexuality.

…it’s much like the “Catholic” couple who live together or who gets divorced and remarried but insists on having the right to the Sacraments, without giving up the sexual elements in their immoral relations.

…it seems that the Pope, out of the “goodness” of his heart wants to do away with restrictions: ‘hey, who am I to judge?’

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[reggieM]

Hi, Reggie!

…then there’s that “don’t judge me, and I won’t judge you” philosophy–Catholics are buying into to this one… it began with contraception and divorce… now it’s in the abortion and civil unions facets…

That’s a great position to hold–one hand whitewashes the other!

Maran atha!

Angel

Hi Angel - great point.
We have many people who do that.
As a result, we no longer have a firm voice against these serious problems.
We do have to be careful about judging the speck in another’s eye and missing the plank in our own - but the idea is to be aware of both and seek to help those who do have the speck in their eye - not to let them suffer in an error based on false-compassion!

Helping someone turn away from sin - in a friendly, trustworthy manner - is the best love we can give to them. Of course, we have to do it to ourselves also. A gentle but firm approach is good. It’s very difficult to do it without actually showing anger against the person! But that’s the challenge. We have to be patient, forgiving, loving - and also unwilling to compromise about what is true, and willing to actually tell people what is a sin and what is good.