How to deal with those "What if" thoughts?

[Schn]

Voice of [Un]reason, here it is not the place to sell such ideas. Disbelief in God and in the afterlife only brings despair and the sense of uselessness and absurdity of life. The only logical consequence is suicide. Atheists live with anguish inside, they do not even know
what inner peace is.
Readers of this thread, do not buy it.

Anna

That’s quite a statement you’re putting on all atheists. It could be considered quite offensive, really. I mean, replace ‘Atheists’ with ‘Catholics’ and you’d probably get a warning.
“Catholics live with anguish inside, they do not even know what inner peace is.”

That the only logical consequence is suicide is incorrect - as long as there is a perceived positive value on living the rest of their natural lives, people will not commit suicide, regardless of beliefs. Hmm, if suicide didn’t send you straight to hell, it would be perfectly logical to commit suicide as a Catholic, because you’d get into heaven. Oh well, too bad suicide is bad.

The thing I find hard to get around is that belief might somehow change the outcome. Is the argument not to ‘buy it’ based solely on the perceived psychological negatives to becoming an atheist, or is it based on fear of hell? In either case, the eventual outcome will not change based on your belief - why is it not logical to be agnostic?

 

[sawman]

I am always amazed at the lack of charity and solid reasoning expressed by atheists. Atheism is by it’s very nature materialistic. It allows nothing of the supernatural. So why should anyone listen or care about what an atheist says or thinks?Atheists included. Why does an atheist bother about a discussion on a Catholic forum? Atheism has no answers about anything, is full of very poor reasoning and borders on the edge of sanity. It is a faulty belief system and accounts for nothing that matters to believers.
If I were you, Seamus619, I’d dismiss these musings and try to get your mind on some constructive thoughts.

 

[brap]

Born and raised a Catholic, I lapsed for many years. In that time my mind was receptive to many ideas that might be called atheistic. Many suited my circumstances at that moment so I freely accepted them. They are still in me and I struggle with them each and every day. I will say that I have always believed in God and if anything my personal beliefs were turned away from any kind of organized religion rather then God Himself.

What has this journey taught me is that there is no logical arguement for or against an almighty. I FREELY CHOOSE to believe. I know the arguements for and against - and as blind faith accept God and Jesus. I do not feel the need to justify my beliefs to anyone and only in those moments of weakness remember why it’s called “Faith”.

 

[Anna1]

, replace ‘Atheists’ with ‘Catholics’ and you’d probably get a warning.
“Catholics live with anguish inside, they do not even know what inner peace is.”

QUOTE]

Eh no, you can’t do it. Atheists believe they are on earth by chance and that after death they will disappear into nothingness, like animals. That’s the source of their anguish.
If you can live in peace in this way, good luck.
Catholics know they have an immortal soul created by God, they know they are immensely loved by Him, they know that their Homeland is Heaven and they know that they have a sublime destiny of happiness with God for eternity.
That’s the source of their peace.

 

[Anna1]

What has this journey taught me is that there is no logical arguement for or against an almighty. .

Actually there is a logical way to arrive at the existence of an Almighty, and it is creation.
By observing creation and all its wonderful and perfect laws the natural reason concludes that there must be a Creator.

 

[SophiaLector]

2 Corinthians 2:15-17 (New International Version)
“15 For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing. 16 To the one we are the smell of death; to the other, the fragrance of life. And who is equal to such a task? 17 Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, like men sent from God.”

Don’t bother arguing with an athiest who is just out to insult your charity. Pray for him instead.

 

[Schn]

Eh no, you can’t do it. Atheists believe they are on earth by chance and that after death they will disappear into nothingness, like animals. That’s the source of their anguish.

You seem to be beating a strawman. Natural selection is not purely a process of chance. It does not follow that nothingness in death will cause anguish to the point where you suggest suicide.

If you can live in peace in this way, good luck.
Catholics know they have an immortal soul created by God, they know they are immensely loved by Him, they know that their Homeland is Heaven and they know that they have a sublime destiny of happiness with God for eternity.
That’s the source of their peace.

How do they know? There must be some rock of physical evidence, for it is possible to achieve temporary peace in many ways, some of which are illegal. Fear of the alternative is not evidence.

 

[mark_a]

Very occassionally I will get those What If feelings. What If all those Atheists you see in the media and in your college science department and who jump out of nowhere whenever anybody says anything remotely religious are correct in there may be nothing after we die. It is a scary thought. I do believe in God, and wich you build my faith even more. When you guys get those feelings or thoughts, how do you best deal with them? I admit I am an imperfect human.

When you find the answer, please pm me with it!

 

[Voice_of_Reason_1]

HA! That’s totally dishonest, Voice of Reason. You should have stated what you’re really pushing,

Do I have some hidden agenda? Are there any misconceptions as to whether or not I’m Catholic? No.

what you’re really pushing, “Be satisfied with Atheiem, whatever shape it may take.”

My point about being satisfied with truth is meant to encourage being satisfied with the conclusion met by reason, and ***without partiality ***to which conclusion each person’s brand of reason appeals.

You clearly cannot stand that anyone would be Catholic, well-educated, and at peace with Divine Wisdom.

If by ‘stand it’ you mean to say that I can’t deal with it intellectually, as it confounds my sense of what’s true, or emotionally, as it contradicts my personal beliefs, then certainly I haven’t indicated that this is the case (and, as such, it isn’t the case). But if by ‘stand it,’ you mean allow people to proffer half-baked rationalizations about Religion’s problems and oppositions, then you’re right. If I think I’ve gained some insight into why such rationalizations aren’t effective or truthful, I’ll probably want to communicate them.

Sorry you find us idiots so threatening.

It’s interesting that you consider this to be my mindset. Most people assume the opposite - that I’m unfairly sharpening my teeth on believers for sport. Neither is true, in fact. I feel almost compelled to offer other motives as to why this claim is false, but I have a feeling you don’t particularly believe this about me anyway.

We’re really just here to love you.

In what way do you love me - someone so obviously antithesis to you’re position - someone you see as being a contentious liar? Honestly, these are the things that baffle me about Christianity. You might love me to the extent that you wish me the best (that I live free of harm or adopt your dogmatic views), but you don’t have any grounds on which to love me in the way that would warrant suggesting it.

 

[Voice_of_Reason_1]

Voice of [Un]reason, here it is not the place to sell such ideas.

It’s not a pitch; it’s a stance. And if you haven’t taken a close look at the OP’s issue, this is exactly the place to discuss the idea.

Disbelief in God and in the afterlife only brings despair and the sense of uselessness and absurdity of life. The only logical consequence is suicide. Atheists live with anguish inside, they do not even know
what inner peace is.

Who are you describing? Not any atheists I know. I find it ironic that, if you knew me in person, you would be surprised at the level of exuberance and satisfaction with which I live my life.

Readers of this thread, do not buy it.

I agree with this. Take it free of charge. If only for an hour; if only for 15 minutes, consider the alternative.

 

[Voice_of_Reason_1]

Born and raised a Catholic, I lapsed for many years. In that time my mind was receptive to many ideas that might be called atheistic. Many suited my circumstances at that moment so I freely accepted them. They are still in me and I struggle with them each and every day. I will say that I have always believed in God and if anything my personal beliefs were turned away from any kind of organized religion rather then God Himself.

What has this journey taught me is that there is no logical arguement for or against an almighty. I FREELY CHOOSE to believe. I know the arguements for and against - and as blind faith accept God and Jesus. I do not feel the need to justify my beliefs to anyone and only in those moments of weakness remember why it’s called “Faith”.

Written with true sobriety.

Eh no, you can’t do it. Atheists believe they are on earth by chance

Not Chance; probability. An intro in statistics completely annihilates beliefs about earth created by chance and ever-widens the prospects of probability.

and that after death they will disappear into nothingness, like animals. That’s the source of their anguish.

Not disappear; become reduced into the fundamental elements for which our bodies are made, and which share the elemental appetite with everything else on earth. I find no anguish in this. I am happy to be alive now.

If you can live in peace in this way, good luck.

In what way do you mean ‘live in peace’?

Catholics know they have an immortal soul created by God, they know they are immensely loved by Him, they know that their Homeland is Heaven and they know that they have a sublime destiny of happiness with God for eternity.
That’s the source of their peace.

Without getting into the obvious philosophical problem of simply knowing, the kind of certainty you’re suggesting doesn’t seem typical of Catholics at all, or any believer. Faith is fraught with doubts and trials, which most believers attest readily - that is part of the Christian journey.

 

[Luke_K]

I think if you end up losing your faith, you’ll be pleasently surprised at how liberating it is to be completely free-thinking - unbound by any obscure dogma. I was surprised, in any event.
.

I personally find Catholicism to be very liberating. The freedom to draw a giraffe or solve mathematical problems depends on following certain rules. Similarly, the freedom to find one’s soul at rest depends on following certain dogma.

The truth will set you free.

 

[Voice_of_Reason_1]

I personally find Catholicism to be very liberating. The freedom to draw a giraffe or solve mathematical problems depends on following certain rules. Similarly, the freedom to find one’s soul at rest depends on following certain dogma.

The truth will set you free.

So your liberation comes from your soul being at rest. I have to wonder - in what way is a soul rested or tormented, as humans can experience it? Surely I, a non-Catholic, must have a soul that is rife with turmoil, and yet I would never know it; the soul, if it exists, must surely have no mechanism in the human mind or body through which it perceives. If it did, then I wouldn’t be numb to it’s waning and pining and toiling or whathaveyou.

You [Catholics] must be able to see my difficulty in buying into such metaphysical contrivances.

 

[Major_Tom]

Disbelief in God and in the afterlife only brings despair and the sense of uselessness and absurdity of life. The only logical consequence is suicide. Atheists live with anguish inside, they do not even know
what inner peace is.

Anna

Wow. Have you got polls or any data to back this up? I couldn’t disagree more…

I’m a cradle Catholic. I believe in God, but the details beyond that remain a work in progress to me. I spent years of trying to tell myself that I believed in the Trinity, transubstantiation, etc. and it never really worked. Then I said, “You know what, I just don’t believe it”. It was awesome! I felt liberated of trying to parse words and rationalize things that I just didn’t believe. Prior to that, there was always a nagging feeling of “Yikes, I’m not supposed to be thinking this way…stop … suppress stray thoughts… mortal sins will send me to helllllll…!”

Every now and then, I ponder atheism. Instead of denying it, I ponder it, wrestle with it. Every time, it’s gone away. I encourage you not to be scared of “what if” thoughts… I recall a line from a favorite song: “Know your pain by it’s real name”. I think if you deny those thoughts, they will only remain and gnaw at you. Let them out, wrestle with them. When I did, I realized that I was scared to think that my parents (who are deceased) might actually be gone. Not just physically, but gone. Spiritually gone. Forever. It was shocking and unnerving. But that helped me realize something: even if the atheists are right, they are still around (in a sense, thru me). And I’ll still be around after death (thru my kids, thru my neighbors, and everyone else that I’ve met). I wrestled with it, the fear left, I still seek God every day … happy ending!

The only logical consequence is suicide. Atheists live with anguish inside, they do not even know
what inner peace is.

Anna

Seriously, what are you afraid of? That argument is so stale. Your vehemance is shocking. For the three and a half days that I pondered being an atheist, I still read books to my kids, held the door open for little old ladies, enjoyed the sunshine… To think that the two are mutually exclusive is silly.

Hey, let’s all hold hands and sing ‘Imagine’ by John Lennon… everybody now … “Imagine there’s no heaven… it’s easy if you try…”

 

[Luke_K]

So your liberation comes from your soul being at rest. I have to wonder - in what way is a soul rested or tormented, as humans can experience it? Surely I, a non-Catholic, must have a soul that is rife with turmoil, and yet I would never know it; the soul, if it exists, must surely have no mechanism in the human mind or body through which it perceives. If it did, then I wouldn’t be numb to it’s waning and pining and toiling or whathaveyou.

You [Catholics] must be able to see my difficulty in buying into such metaphysical contrivances.

I would say that humans experience a torment of the soul as the awareness that one is acting in a way that is pleasing, yet feels that he ought not to be doing so. The will of the person becomes involved in a tug-of-war between two opposing wills, i.e. a man in the privacy of his room who wishes to indulge in pornography yet feels for a moment that he shouldn’t, though he doesn’t know why.

I think St. Padre Pio questioned whether everyone feels a calling to God like he did. It is difficult for people who have a strong sense of a relationship with God to understand why others don’t bother with Him, even if they themselves used to be in that position. If you absolutely, truly have never felt a calling to change the way you live or feel a tug at your conscience, then I don’t really know what to say. Otherwise, all I can say is be honest with yourself. In my personal experience, being honest with myself leads me to conclude that Catholicism has the truth.

Particularly in regards to lust and masturbation, I extremely enjoyed doing them, yet I still felt that I shouldn’t. I tried to rationalize in my mind that they were natural and OK to do, and I even considered that I wouldn’t feel bad about it if I just completely stopped caring about whether it was right or wrong. I eventually convinced myself that doing it wasn’t making me happy, so I chose to follow the Church’s teaching regarding sexuality. It was an arduous process to give it up and practice chastity, but now that I do, I find that I’m happier with it than I ever was masturbating.

It’s matters like this which describe the sense of being at rest for me. Practicing other teachings of the Church have had the same effects. I have felt the peace that I have expected will intrinsically occur when the truth has finally presented itself. The searching is over for me.

 

[Anna1]

God created all souls and placed in them two powerful “tools” so that they can search and arrive at Him: the desire of truth and the desire of happiness.
These two desires drive us for all our life. When we arrive at the knowledge and the love of the true God we feel peace and fulfillment. If we remain attached to creatures and created things hoping this will quench our thirst, we will get disappointed. Satan knows of these two desires and tries to allure people into every kind of passions and errors, in order to distract them from God. After trying the pleasures of this world, many remain bitterly deluded and eventually start their search for God. He reveals Himself to those who seek Him with a sincere heart, something the atheists cannot understand.
God also places in every heart His law, this is why we know, deep in ourselves, that something is wrong, even if others try to convince us that it is ok and we force ourselves to rationalize. We can suffocate our conscience, but we cannot deny that it exists.
But God gave us a free will and does not force us to seek for Him.
As the Pope said: "What is the reason that some see and find (Christ) and others don’t? What opens one’s eyes and heart? What is lacking in those who remain indifferent, those who know the way, but do not take it?
People do not accept Christ’s invitation to come to Him when they are too self-assured and display the “pretentiousness of understanding reality perfectly well and the presumption of already having come to a definite judgment about things, which makes their hearts closed and insensitive to the novelty of God”

 

[exoflare]

The “what if” thoughts by themselves are meaningless without evidence of some sort… I guess you’ll have to be more specific about just what it is that convinces you so much that atheists are really onto something. Aside from all that, let’s just assume for a moment that atheism IS correct… in which case, everything you ever do in your life will be ultimately meaningless in the grand scheme of the universe so there would be no point in worrying about it anyway.

 

[Anna1]

Not Chance; probability. An intro in statistics completely annihilates beliefs about earth created by chance and ever-widens the prospects of probability.

Ah, that makes me feel better.

Not disappear; become reduced into the fundamental elements for which our bodies are made, and which share the elemental appetite with everything else on earth. I find no anguish in this. I am happy to be alive now.

How nice to know that the ultimate scope of my life is to fertilize the soil…

In what way do you mean ‘live in peace’?

peace in your heart

Without getting into the obvious philosophical problem of simply knowing, the kind of certainty you’re suggesting doesn’t seem typical of Catholics at all, or any believer. Faith is fraught with doubts and trials, which most believers attest readily - that is part of the Christian journey.

Thank you for teaching me what the Christian journey entails. I have had my share of doubts but now I do not have anymore so that I can firmly contradict atheists everytime I meet them.

 

[brap]

Actually there is a logical way to arrive at the existence of an Almighty, and it is creation.
By observing creation and all its wonderful and perfect laws the natural reason concludes that there must be a Creator.

All logical arguments for or against a Divine Creator fall short of one thing - proof. One can say that (and I beleive) that life itself is proof of the Almighty but where is the physical evidence? Likewise one can refute God with the “Big Bang Theory” (of which evidence abound all about us BUT what about before that? Actually they both lead to some kind of faith not sound logic.

I like to think that those people who think that like somehow we got here by chance will someday find the Great Pyramids or the Empire State Building (constructed by chance) on some distant planet, The improbabilty of which seems to me much less great then having life on this earth.

 

[Anna1]

All logical arguments for or against a Divine Creator fall short of one thing - proof. One can say that (and I beleive) that life itself is proof of the Almighty but where is the physical evidence?.

But why people claim physical evidence? God could say: “Tah, dah! Here I am, look at me, I really exist” and all the doubts would vanish. But it does not work in this way and we must not demand physical proofs in order to believe. If we seek for Him and we pray for the gift of faith, He will grant us.
“Have you come to believe because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed.” Jesus said to Thomas.