How to defend against the argument 'religion is the cause of wars'

[Garyjohn2]

This is a stretch, indeed. Using the same reasoning, one could conclude that getting out of bed in the morning is caused by religion: I have to get out of bed to meet my obligations. Meeting my obligations is an ethical imperative, and since ethics is motivated by religion, my getting out of bed was caused by religion. QED.

Yes, that’s right. We do whats right because of the way our society is formed…its moors and taboos. Religion is a cornerstone of our society. It might be off topic to go down that rabbit hole though.

 

[KathleenGee]

Redbaron,

I read so many comments from young (I’m over 60 now) agnostics who have no idea they are tools of the deliberate dumbing down by the far left who took control of our education system way back in the 60’s.

They don’t realize they have been indoctrinated with misinformation and prejudice.

 

[Big_Dummy]

I handle that claim with laugher and then I point out things like Socal Darwinism

Adolf Hitler In May 1913 Hitler left Vienna for Munich and, when war broke out in August 1914 , … this crude, half-baked hotchpotch of primitive Social Darwinism, racial myth, … causing the planned invasion of the British Isles to be postponed. …
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/hitler.html - Cached - Similar

google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&rlz=1W1ADBF_en&q=socal+darwinism+causes+war&rlz=1W1ADBF_en&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.&fp=ee7ae51cefa9981c

google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&rlz=1W1ADBF_en&q=atheistism+causes+war&rlz=1W1ADBF_en&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.&fp=ee7ae51cefa9981c

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/hitler.html

 

[1234]

I would assume the trauma of witnessing human sacrifice on such a scale had tremendous effect on the Spanish missionaries throughout the region that would last generations.

The story of Mary of Guadalupe and her effect, and the civilization of the Aztecan people had a great impact on me, and was the reason I studied Mexico and its history of peoples with great interest.

The Franciscan friars were complicit in the subjugation of the native tribes in New SPain, now New Mexico. The governors did abuse the peoples a great deal, taking tribute and essential foodstuffs and blankets from them, but the friars conscripted their labor in building all of their missions, including the one on top of Acoma. The Acoma indians were forced to carry on foot long tree trunks from Mt. Taylor, 40 miles away, without letting them touch the ground. Indians were routinely flogged. Fr. Serra, now a saint, used to flog Indians. Not such a pretty picture.

 

[Ranklyfrank]

The Franciscan friars were complicit in the subjugation of the native tribes in New SPain, now New Mexico. The governors did abuse the peoples a great deal, taking tribute and essential foodstuffs and blankets from them, but the friars conscripted their labor in building all of their missions, including the one on top of Acoma. The Acoma indians were forced to carry on foot long tree trunks from Mt. Taylor, 40 miles away, without letting them touch the ground. Indians were routinely flogged. Fr. Serra, now a saint, used to flog Indians. Not such a pretty picture.

Neither were some of the requirements for “salvation” a few California missionaries made of young Indian girls.

 

[bogeydogg]

As the title suggest, how do you defend against this argument to the atheist?
Just curious how CAF will defend it.
Because in another forum (my local country forum), I’ve seen a lot of argument of the atheist, and one of the most common used argument is
‘Religion is the cause of wars. When two people from different religion disagreeing with each other, they start to force their beliefs on others, and eventually they fight, and then it leads to war’.

They did not specify which war but I don’t think they are ignorant of the Crusades (Christianity vs Muslims), the current on going Israeli-Palestinian war (my country is pro-Palestinian, after all it’s a Muslim country), and even my local country issue where due to the local issue of the word ‘Allah’, eleven churches, a Catholic school, a Sikh temple, two mosques and two Muslim prayer rooms so far have been hit by arson and vandalism attacks, as well as throwing a pig head into a muslim mosque.

These have really convinced the atheist that religion is the source of war and they believed religions should be removed for world peace.

How do you defend against this claim?

In the 20th Century over 100 million people died in war social oppression and that was because of socialism which denies God exists at all.

Those who would argue religion causes war conveniently ignore this fact.

Furthermore religion has given us hospitals, universities, and orphanages which afr more than can be said for any “human” system.

God Bless

 

[Ranklyfrank]

In the 20th Century over 100 million people died in war social oppression and that was because of socialism which denies God exists at all.

Those who would argue religion causes war conveniently ignore this fact.

Furthermore religion has given us hospitals, universities, and orphanages which afr more than can be said for any “human” system.

God Bless

Socialism is not a system relative to God or religion. It is and economic theory and practice.

Religion itself is a human system, then, because if you hold that there is only one “true” one, then a LOT of non-true, therefore human, religions have done what you attribute to religion.

How old are you, btw?

 

[Skeptic92]

Socialism is not a system relative to God or religion. It is and economic theory and practice.

Religion itself is a human system, then, because if you hold that there is only one “true” one, then a LOT of non-true, therefore human, religions have done what you attribute to religion.

How old are you, btw?

Have you read the communist manifesto? Yes, Socialism is relative to religion, it wants it’s total annihilation, Communism or it’s lesser form Socialism, even in it’s modern form, is Anti-Catholic, Anti-Christian, and Anti-Religion in general, and it has byfar caused the most deaths of any Ideology, whether it is political or religious.

 

[KathleenGee]

Both communism and socialism are condemned because the state is made a god.

Liberalism is condemned because there are no absolutes, no right or wrong, relativism.

Certain types of capitalism are condemned if the workers are not being given just wages, and working in slave like conditions.

Beyond these, the Catholic Church favors no government as long as they permit freedom of religious expression.

 

[KathleenGee]

I read some materials online regarding New Mexico and Arizona, and again, for the most part the Franciscan missionaries had the Indian peoples’ good as their foremost intention.

What is not noted is how the Franciscans, as well as Dominican priests during the Spanish Inquisition who defended and exonerated those accused, that the SW Indians were taught agricultural methods, and better self-sustenance.

There were more difficulties in establishing a more solid missionary presence and works in New Mexico. The articles mentioned nothing of priests sleeping with women or abusing Indians.

The Indians themselves built their dwellings on cliffs…so again, you have to consider the source.

While there are those who like to point the finger at clergy abuse – this caused by a most costly division between clergy and lay and ineptness at higher levels in the Church, the actual count of clergy abuse after so extreme publicity, the actual count of guilty has dropped dramatically. I am now reading the actual number of abusers are around 1,000. Of course, the vast majority of priests condemned such behavior themselves.

And on the other hand, the sexual abuse in the secular/atheist dominated world of our education system is 100x’s that of any clergy abuse, as well as over 50% of the cases in Los Angeles have been proven fraudulent to discredit and gain money through false accusations.

Not only that, but the atheist/secular/entertainment world is most responsible for the degradation of the human being and the sanctity of human life in this country. The STD rate of teens is now at 25%, the US first or second place in the practice of infanticide/abortion in the world, the greatest promoter of pornography in the world…how dehumanizing that is, the break up of families, the destruction of innocence…all for a false sense of freedom which in fact license.

 

[KathleenGee]

Finally, our young people have been so politicalized, they have no sense of geography and anthropology.

You have to develop an economy based on the people and their geographical resources.

You have only a certain strata of people in any given culture who have business smarts to start one, earn money, create jobs, manage people. Those factors are expenses in themselves.

It is fair if you expend all that work, your pay should compensate what you have actually worked for.

There are countries in Sub Sahara Africa who have been victimized by these same kind of arguments, costing natives millions of lives, and destruction of their own national infrastructures. So many are incapable of going beyond their own system of surviving and making a living.

The only solution to the poor countries is for generous hearts to come work with them, teach and develop them without exploitation.

And this is what the Catholic Church has done very well for hundreds of years. Afterall, it was the Church who first set up the hospices, hospitals, education for children, and set up universities for the common people…as what happened in Mexico.

Young people here should broaden their personal education and read up on Catholic social doctrine.

The state exists to serve the people is the crux of Catholic teaching, and that society should constantly work to care for its weak and young and sick.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Neither were some of the requirements for “salvation” a few California missionaries made of young Indian girls.

Whatever do you mean by this remark?

 

[KathleenGee]

You young people know about the founder of Planned Parenthood…Margaret Sanger, the racist and eugenicists who didn’t think the poor and other minorities and the intellectually handicapped were not fit for human existence?

Or the great sex scientist, Kinsey…so great that one center of admiration known for being the porn center of our country, Los Angeles…made a movie about him…it was warped like him, though, and their adulation of him.

All his sex experiments on orphan babies…molesting them to the point of getting them to cry or have organisms, and have fits??? Certainly, you young people can work the search engine better than an old woman like me…

Go search the truth about Margaret Sanger and her complicity with the Naziis…about Kinsey and his criminal sex experiments on little children.

If you do bother to broaden your intellect and your moral fiber, look them up, and then you will see why many want Planned Parenthood de-funded…all the work of the secular state…

How many young people are alive, but physically and sexually used, morally and emotionally broken because of the secular agenda who cares truly nothing about them, but promotes sex on them, because people don’t like teens having babies…and are somewhat lenient about abortion in these cases…they don’t want kids to be virgins, chaste, clean, moral, achieving…

I met a young woman a few weeks ago who travelled to Europe. She said the young people there talk so much more respectfully. When I was growing up, we never disobeyed or talked back to our parents or mistreated them like you see today…this is a wide, wide problem affecting so many, many families.

Our country needs to restore its moral fiber and its families…the foundation of society.

 

[strgzr99]

deleted

 

[Ranklyfrank]

Whatever do you mean by this remark?

I won’t write it on here as it would be scandalous. Go read some history of the California missions and the relations of the missionaries with the aborigines. And I don’t mean the bowdlerized stories from the Church itself; I mean actual histories.

 

[Contarini]

I read some materials online regarding New Mexico and Arizona, and again, for the most part the Franciscan missionaries had the Indian peoples’ good as their foremost intention.

Are these apologetics materials?

And I don’t dispute that generally they had the Indian peoples’ good as their foremost intention–at least their eternal good. That’s precisely what is terrifying. Any organization can have rotten apples who act out of bad motives. What scares me about Catholicism (and historic Christianity generally) is the number of horrible things done out of good motives. (The same is true, for instance, of Communism. That many Communists were corrupt is not really an argument against Communism–it’s the atrocities committed by sincere Communists that condemn the ideology most thoroughly.)

What is not noted is how the Franciscans, as well as Dominican priests during the Spanish Inquisition who defended and exonerated those accused, that the SW Indians were taught agricultural methods, and better self-sustenance.

This isn’t actually a sentence–sorry to be snooty, but the fact is relevant, because tehe confusing syntax makes it hard for me to understand your argument. If they were taught “better self-sustenance,” then why did their numbers plummet? Or is that just leftist propaganda according to you?

Maybe they were doing OK practicing their traditional methods of sustenance. Who gave the Franciscans the right to force them to become European-style farmers?

The Indians themselves built their dwellings on cliffs…so again, you have to consider the source.

What on earth does this mean? How is this supposed to be relevant?

The charge against the Franciscans is that they came in with the arrogant assumption that they knew what was good for the Indians better than the Indians themselves did, and that they were willing to subjugate and beat the Indians and force them into a mode of life not conducive to their physical well-being in order to save their souls.

This is a two-part charge–you can show that they did in fact promote the Indians’ well-being, and you’ll still have to deal with the claim that they had no business forcing well-being on the Indians against their will. However, you have not so far shown that their actions did tend to promote the Indians’ physical well-being.

Edwin

 

[sedonaman]

… What scares me about Catholicism (and historic Christianity generally) is the number of horrible things done out of good motives. …

These motives aren’t Christian, for Christianity teaches that God gave man free will because He wants man to come to Him freely because love is not genuine if it is forced. So you can’t hang that hat on Christianity, perhaps the misguided Christians who committed the horrible things, but not Christianity.

…(The same is true, for instance, of Communism. That many Communists were corrupt is not really an argument against Communism–it’s the atrocities committed by sincere Communists that condemn the ideology most thoroughly.)

Perhaps. I think that the case can be made that the “sincere communists” were not the ones who perpetrated its atrocities but the bully-boys, the ones who knock heads together. First come the intellectuals who postulate a new system, and when people resist, the intellectuals shrink to the background and let the bully-boys take over. This is what happened in Nazi Germany. Therefore, I think that atrocities committed by communists are a by-product of the ideology; i.e., to make the system work, you must take away peoples’ rights. People naturally resist this, and so you have laws that demand atrocities if broken. Note this is the same with Islam [to make it work, you must take away peoples’ rights], and that’s why it specifies the death penalty for apostasy, blasphemy, etc. The result is rule by fear. It is not necessary to take away rights in order for Christianity to work. On the contrary, peoples’ rights increase under properly practiced Christianity.

 

[GaryTaylor]

There’s no sense in stopping with New-Mexico, we might as well throw the entire American Indian slaughter in the pot. Who’s responsible for that?

The idea that religion is the root of war to raise atheism up as the shining beacon of light is insanity.

Who commits the first murder in recorded mankind? Where do you find atheism and a course of upright moral conduct together to give us a new moral code for society? What world did this take place in?

The idea of reducing religion to a confirmed kill death count does little to inflate the wonderful world of atheism. Not sure whats being said here? The bottom line of the question is a Atheism vs Religion debate. I wouldn’t be so quick to step up and claim any victory awards, matter of fact we are positive we won’t see that happen.

There are corrupt men in every single walk of life, and none are excluded from the hard fast rule. Regardless of what “ism” one would like to shine a light on, I’m pretty sure I’ll find a fool among them.

So we should worship the creature instead of the creator? So does the weekly publication of Atheism from their camp undo the work of a score of Catholic/Christian missionaries? Does finding the ardvark place all in the wrong column?

Civilized man is not the product of atheism. The fact that atheism hasn’t controlled a civil society is only a indication of its utter failure. What countrys do we have to hold up as a victory for atheism? France, Russia and should we go on?

There is not a noble influence known to humanity that is not the emphasized product of Christianity. The fact that we may bicker among ourselve’s is only the process which works out the flaws among us. The greater good is God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. If theres a clearer path to the moral conscious of Good? I must have missed it. You’ll just have to enlighten me and us.

The Christian faith, and its one and true God and Holy Bible, has brought to the world more light, and has given to living men, more happiness than all the philosophies of unbelieving men combined. The crime of the ages is not the murder of individuals, now characterized in this thread as “the problem” of society in the name of religious war.

The problem is the sinister doctrine of atheism, which is like a creeping disease in the halls of every university in the land and of all civilized society. And promoted in slick speech and in the name of “Science,” but better named and defined as “atheism”. And its determined goal is to destroy the faith of “Christianity” and mankind rooted in God and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in His revealed Word called, the Holy Scriptures.

And the very moral issues which atheism is so willing to toss to the side? They are going to be the very issues which make or break this years political canidates. You could take that to the bank. Its 2011 and the sleepwalking is over. The state credit cards are maxed out, we’re all done with the materialistic nonsense, and the corrupt backward thinking, abortion, same-sex marrige, legalize dope, prostitution. How about we just hand over society to satan without a fight? Let me know how you make out with atheism.

 

[sedonaman]

…The idea that religion is the root of war to raise atheism up as the shining beacon of light is insanity. …

Mega

 

[Suni_Moon]

There’s not much to defend there. Religious extremists ARE the cause of a lot of wars.
You cannot possibly blame religion as a whole, but there are more than enough hypocrites claiming to be christian to go around.