How to explain the promises of the Brown Scapular to "Bible-Only" Christians?

[DavidB]

hurst:

Sweet Heart of Mary, be my Salvation!

Hurst,

One has only to examine your signature line to summarize your heresy. You’re replaced Jesus, the ONLY Way of Salvation, with Mary. How tragic to come so close, but miss the true faith and accept a substitute false Gospel. Mary is not your salvation. If your trust is in her, she’ll let you down cause she has no power unto salvation.

David

 

[aspawloski4th]

lets keep in mind with the scapular, that the scapular that came out of private revelation, has an official Catholic church prayer that erolls one in it. It must be pretty legitimate for that.

 

[mcliffor]

I thought that if you wore the scapular and were in a state of mortal sin, the Blessed Virgin would provide the necessary grace at the moment of death for true contrition, essentially protecting someone from hell. Isn’t that why it’s such a popular devotion? Isn’t that also why we wear it in the shower and pool?

Also, are there any books on the scapular? I’ve been wearing one for a while with the understanding that this is what it was for, but I’l like to know more about it’s symbolism and significance.

 

[hurst]

DavidB:

Hurst,

One has only to examine your signature line to summarize your heresy.

On the contrary, Mary crushes all heresy. She is the one who has overcome the adversary. She is the Immaculate Conception. She is the great work of God.

DavidB:

You’re replaced Jesus, the ONLY Way of Salvation, with Mary.

What?! Are you so ignorant that you don’t know that Mary, the Mother of Christ, brings the salvation of Christ?

Also, you deny that Jesus would give anyone the power to save a soul by His merits.

I assert that He does, and yet that takes nothing away from the fact that it is Jesus who is the ultimate source of that salvation - whether the recipient is aware of it immediately or not.

You are limiting Christ, who is pleased to work through members of His Body. We faithful are all part of His Body, and thus constitute in ourselves through this union the means of salvation for our neighbor who is lost.

In fact, with such a disposition as yours, it is impossible to be truly Catholic, for we trust in the Church for our salvation, even today.

It does matter what we do in the world. It does have an effect on the salvation of others. For some, we may very well be their salvation.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation, which is in Christ Jesus, with heavenly glory.

Paul was their salvation in a very real way. True gratitude would not hesitate to heap it onto Paul, even as the faithful recipients rejoiced in God. Nor would God begrudge that fact, since He, too, would be rejoicing. Paul even looks forward to this:

1 Thessalonians 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of glory? Are not you, in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? 20 For you are our glory and joy.

2 Corinthians 1:12 For our glory is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity of heart and sincerity of God, and not in carnal wisdom, but in the grace of God, we have conversed in this world: and more abundantly towards you. … 14 As also you have known us in part, that we are your glory, as you also are ours, in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I am quite pleased to increase the glory of Mary by letting her apply the merits of Christ to save me.

Sweet Heart of Mary, be my salvation!

The problem is that today, there is not much gratitude toward those who bring us the knowledge of the faith. Instead, there is a sort of legalism that says “we are not allowed to be grateful to anyone except God directly”.

But like the Pharisees of old, you thereby make void the command of God to honor your father and mother.

Mark 7:2 And further you suffer him not to do any thing for his father or mother, 13 Making void the word of God by your own tradition, which you have given forth. And many other such like things you do.

Your very accusation speaks against yourself, does it not? You refuse to see Jesus in His faithful.

DavidB:

How tragic to come so close, but miss the true faith and accept a substitute false Gospel.

On the contrary, with Mary, I am so much more confident that I have found the true faith and the true Gospel.

But it is tragic that you reject the gifts that Christ merited for us at such a great price. It is one thing to know the formula for salvation, but quite another to put it into practice.

DavidB:

Mary is not your salvation.

As it happens, she has brought me closer to Our Lord than I could have ever hoped to even ask for myself. Loving her has truly brought me salvation, and it is because it pleases Our Lord to do so. It might be hard to love some people, but it is easy to love Blessed Mary, so sweet and loving. Thus it is easier to fulfill the commandment to love our neighbor by loving Mary.

Please stop trying to separate Mary from Jesus! They are united forever.

DavidB:

If your trust is in her, she’ll let you down cause she has no power unto salvation.

David

But she has not let me down!

She rewards those who have confidence in her. She has great power with God, and she is a real person! She has a will, an intellect. She is a creature of God and responds to our love. And she is powerful and full of grace! Please stop ignoring her! If you truly wish to be please Jesus, love Mary.

Your statement just shows ignorance of Christ. Nor are you being charitable to the Blessed Virgin Mary in that statement.

It is rather tragic that you would accuse the Queen of Heaven, faithful Mother of Jesus who through her cooperation and intercession with God bore our Redeemer, as someone that could possibly let us down! May God have mercy on you.

hurst

 

[hurst]

mcliffor:

I thought that if you wore the scapular and were in a state of mortal sin, the Blessed Virgin would provide the necessary grace at the moment of death for true contrition, essentially protecting someone from hell. Isn’t that why it’s such a popular devotion?

Yes, if your devotion pleases her and God, she will obtain the necessary grace for contrition and reconciliation with God. But you have to be trying.

It is especially for those with scruples, who are not sure whether they are doing the right thing or not, even though they try. Read the original story of the Carmelites, who were afraid of hell.

But if you are wearing it in order to continue in sin with impunity, then that is pure folly. God is not mocked.

mcliffor:

Isn’t that also why we wear it in the shower and pool?

It is worn at all times because that is one of the conditions. It is only a coincidence that it also makes sense to wear it at all times in case you die.

mcliffor:

Also, are there any books on the scapular? I’ve been wearing one for a while with the understanding that this is what it was for, but I’l like to know more about it’s symbolism and significance.

There must be. If you are wearing it for the reasons you stated, then that is correct. But you should also be trying to stay out of mortal sin.

If you were aware of a mortal sin you are in now, and think that you don’t need to worry about it hurting you due to your wearing of the scapular, then you would be misguided. I think this is obvious, though.

hurst

 

[Church_Militant]

DavidB:

It’s truth. It’s not anti-Catholic and it’s not allegation. If I were anti-Catholic, I wouldn’t be here. Sometimes hearing the truth hurts. Often, telling the truth hurts as well. It causes one to endure people who misinterpret your intentions and misunderstand your points.

It is indeed an allegation and untrue. I can hack truth, but when you flatly allege that the Catholic Church teaches a false gospel, you are over the line both with respect for catholics and tehir beliefs and with the errors that you allege.

If everything everyone here has already said were true, that the wearer must be a faithful Catholic in good standing and not have unconfessed mortal sin in their life in order for the promise of the scapular to be valid, then the scapular is useless

, because such people ALREADY have scripture promises that they will inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. Thus the scapular provides no assurance beyond what they’ve already received. Why don’t you willfully “misunderstand” some more Catholic beliefs? The devotion has been explained to you in plain English, by people who know…

But that’s not how the scapular is understood across the majority of Catholics is it?

Don’t most Catholics think they are guaranteed salvation by wearing it regardless of their sin condition? Aren’t the official words of the promise “whoever wears the scapular until death, will be preserved from hell”. …By substituting faith in Christ’s Word with faith in a piece of wool, the Catholic Church has, at least in this case, preached a false Gospel. The Catholics that I know all hold to the same beliefs concerning this as I have stated. If this is not what you believed then you were wrong…just as you are now.

There is No Catholic teaching anywhere that ever teaches that ther is a way to heaven “regardless of their sin condition”. In fact that is more in line with non-Catholic teaching that says that a person can pray a one-time “sinners prayer” and be made ready for heaven from then on…literally “regardless of their sin condition”. It’s called OSAS by some and Eternal Security by others. Which one are you? So who’s preaching a false gospel here?

cont’d

 

[Church_Militant]

In addition, the scapular is not a specific reminder of Christ and the Cross, as you’ve mis-stated

, it’s actually a symbol of one’s devotion to Mary and relying on her to acquire grace for salvation and forgiveness of sins on your behalf. At least that’s the way New Advent.org describes it. **So you’ve twisted it’s meaning into something less offensive in order to try to pass this off to those who know heresy when they see it. **We are not called to devote ourselves to Mary, but to Christ. Only through Christ are we saved. So not only is it false to put your faith in this scrap of wool, but to put your faith in Mary is also false. I have mistated nothing at all. I know what the meaning of the brown scapular is and I know it intimately. I don’t care what you think you read on New Advent…but let’s have a look at what it really says about the brown scapular and not YOUR misrepresentations of it…
Link to entire article on scapulars
C. The Scapular of Our Lady of Mount Carmel. Also known as the Brown Scapular, this is the best known, most celebrated, and most widespread of the small scapulars. …

Nevertheless, even should we admit that the small scapular of Our Lady of Mount Carmel originated even as late as the beginning of the sixteenth century, yet the above promise, which is designated the first privilege of the Carmelite Scapular, remains unimpaired. For this privilege declares nothing else than that all those who out of true veneration and love for the Blessed Virgin constantly wear the scapular in a spirit of fidelity and confiding faith, after they have been placed by the Church itself with this habit or badge under the special protection of the Mother of God, shall enjoy this special protection in the matter and crisis which most concerns them for time and eternity. **Whoever, therefore, even though he be now a sinner, wears the badge of the Mother of God throughout life as her faithful servant, not presumptuously relying on the scapular as on a miraculous amulet, but trustfully confiding in the power and goodness of Mary, may securely hope that Mary will through her powerful and motherly intercession procure for him all the necessary graces for true conversion and for perseverance in good. **Such is the meaning and importance of the first privilege of the Carmelite Scapular, which is wont to be expressed in the words: “whoever wears the scapular until death, will be preserved from hell”.

Clearly it is an expression of the desire for the intercession of the Blessed Virgin for the graces of a true conversion to her Son. So just where is that wrong? it’s no more wrong than asking for the prayers of believers for the conversion of anyone. But YOU would allege so.

Not a symbol of faith in Christ? Then why the wool to remind us of the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

It’s known as “the yoke of Christ”…how then is it “a false gospel”? It speaks of committment to Christ Himself as He called us to here in Matthew 11:28 Come to me, all you that labour, and are burdened, and I will refresh you. 29 Take up my yoke upon you, and learn of me, because I am meek, and humble of heart: and you shall find rest to your souls. 30 For my yoke is sweet and my burden light.

YOU know heresy when you see it? Really? The why are yoy still Episcopal when they deny the Eucharist and even were the first Christian church to make artificial birth control “a matter of personal conscience” in 1930, when it had never been accepted by Christians (or even pagan philosphers!). Maybe your heresy meter is defunct.
Pax vobiscum,

 

[DavidB]

Church Militant:

Clearly it is an expression of the desire for the intercession of the Blessed Virgin for the graces of a true conversion to her Son. So just where is that wrong? it’s no more wrong than asking for the prayers of believers for the conversion of anyone.

But YOU would allege so.

Not a symbol of faith in Christ? Then why the wool to remind us of the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

It’s known as “the yoke of Christ”…how then is it “a false gospel”? It speaks of committment to Christ Himself as He called us to here in Matthew 11:28 Come to me, all you that labour, and are burdened, and I will refresh you. 29 Take up my yoke upon you, and learn of me, because I am meek, and humble of heart: and you shall find rest to your souls. 30 For my yoke is sweet and my burden light.
Nothing in your response indicates my assessment was wrong in the least. You’re the one adding explanations about the scapular’s supposed focus on Christ when in reality it represents devotion to Mary. You then attempt to draw those connections based on wool as a material being symbolic and the representation of it being a yoke - very weak indeed. By the words on the devotion, the yoke is to Mary, not Christ.
Church Militant:

YOU know heresy when you see it? Really? The why are yoy still Episcopal when they deny the Eucharist and even were the first Christian church to make artificial birth control “a matter of personal conscience” in 1930, when it had never

been accepted by Christians (or even pagan philosphers!). Maybe your heresy meter is defunct.
Pax vobiscum,

My heresy meter is just fine. Apparently your fact meter needs some adjustment though. The Charismatic Episcopal Church is not in any way related to the Episcopal/Anglican Church. We use “Episcopal” only to denote the fact that we’re led by an espicopate form of government - bishops. We celebrate a fully valid Eucharist in which we recognize the Real Presence in the same terms as the Orthodox. The valid Apostolic Line is from a Catholic bishop who ordained our bishops. The Vatican views our priesthood and sacraments as valid, but illicit, since they were acquired from the Catholic Church of Brazil. As for birth control, I’m not honestly sure of the CEC’s official stance. I know that the Orthodox also accept birth control.

 

[DavidB]

mcliffor:

I thought that if you wore the scapular and were in a state of mortal sin, the Blessed Virgin would provide the necessary grace at the moment of death for true contrition, essentially protecting someone from hell. Isn’t that why it’s such a popular devotion? Isn’t that also why we wear it in the shower and pool?

Also, are there any books on the scapular? I’ve been wearing one for a while with the understanding that this is what it was for, but I’l like to know more about it’s symbolism and significance.

This is exactly my point. Thanks for confirming it. This is the general understanding of many, if no most, wearers of the scapular.

 

[Fiat]

DavidB:

This is exactly my point. Thanks for confirming it. This is the general understanding of many, if no most, wearers of the scapular.

If this is your point, then Hurst very clearly posts explanations as to why this is not contrary to the Christian faith.

Fiat

 

[Subrosa]

DavidB:

This is exactly my point. Thanks for confirming it. This is the general understanding of many, if no most, wearers of the scapular.

The official teaching of the Church, from the Catechism…

**IV. “YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FOR YOURSELF A GRAVEN IMAGE . . .” **

**2129 **The divine injunction included the prohibition of every representation of God by the hand of man. *Deuteronomy *explains: "Since you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure. . . . "66 It is the absolutely transcendent God who revealed himself to Israel. “He is the all,” but at the same time "he is greater than all his works."67 He is "the author of beauty."68

**2130 **Nevertheless, already in the Old Testament, God ordained or permitted the making of images that pointed symbolically toward salvation by the incarnate Word: so it was with the bronze serpent, the ark of the covenant, and the cherubim.69

**2131 **Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified against the iconoclasts the veneration of icons - of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new “economy” of images.

**2132 **The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it."70 The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone:

Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.71

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Since the Brown Scapular is a private revelation, one does not have to believe the claims of the revelation in order to be a Catholic of good standing. It is, however, considered ‘worthy of belief’ (i.e. it does not contradict any principles set forth in the Gospel). So you can be a Catholic and be in good standing if you choose to disbelieve the claims of the revelation, so this whole talk of “another gospel” is moot and simply anti-Catholic rhetoric.

 

[DavidB]

Subrosa:

The official teaching of the Church, from the Catechism…

**IV. “YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FOR YOURSELF A GRAVEN IMAGE . . .” **

**2129 **The divine injunction included the prohibition of every representation of God by the hand of man. *Deuteronomy *explains: "Since you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure. . . . "66 It is the absolutely transcendent God who revealed himself to Israel. “He is the all,” but at the same time "he is greater than all his works."67 He is "the author of beauty."68

**2130 **Nevertheless, already in the Old Testament, God ordained or permitted the making of images that pointed symbolically toward salvation by the incarnate Word: so it was with the bronze serpent, the ark of the covenant, and the cherubim.69

**2131 **Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified against the iconoclasts the veneration of icons - of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new “economy” of images.

**2132 **The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it."70 The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone:

Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.71

I hadn’t even mentioned anything about worshipping graven images. The “point” I was making is the understanding that the promises of the scapular are taught in a way that leads most to believe that they can have unconfessed mortal sin in their life when they die, yet Mary will forgive that sin and guarantee they’ll be in Heaven if they are wearing the scapular at their death. I was told that I was wrong and that people don’t believe that at all. Here’s proof that I was correct in my understanding.

David

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Here is a great essay which describes the history of the Scapular and what it exactly is and what it entails:

cmri.org/05-brownscap.html

 

[DavidB]

Fiat:

If this is your point, then Hurst very clearly posts explanations as to why this is not contrary to the Christian faith.

Fiat

But it is contrary to your claims earlier in the thread that said Catholics don’t actually believe this. They obviously do and now you’re OK with it cause it’s not contrary to your faith . . . so you’re changing your tune now? You now believe that you are guaranteed salvation regardless of having mortal sin in your life if you are wearing the scapular at death?

One of the problems with discussing this topic, as with others, is not even the believers of scapulars are in agreement with what they believe or think they believe.

 

[Lillith]

It is my understanding that the brown scapular is scriptural!..and explained in

Mark 5:21-34…which I’ll paraphrase. The Daughter of Jarius; the woman with a hemorrhage…Jarius came to get Jesus to cure his little daughter…as they were pushing through a crowd There was a woman her suffered a hemorrage for years uncured. She had heard about Jesus and came up behind him in a crowd and put her hand to his cloak. “If I just touch his clothing” she thought “I shall get well”…Jesus was conscious at once that the healing power had gone from him…wheeling around he began to ask “Who touched my clothing?”…the woman was fearful but told the truth and Jesus said “daughter it is your faith that has healed you Go in peace and be free of thais illness!”

It is under this premise that the brown scapular works. We can get twisted and turn the argument to Apparitions…are they true or not…but that doesn’t really explain the thing…but to me, this does.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

DavidB:

But it is contrary to your claims earlier in the thread that said Catholics don’t actually believe this. They obviously do and now you’re OK with it cause it’s not contrary to your faith . . . so you’re changing your tune now? You now believe that you are guaranteed salvation regardless of having mortal sin in your life if you are wearing the scapular at death?

One of the problems with discussing this topic, as with others, is not even the believers of scapulars are in agreement with what they believe or think they believe.

If a Catholic believes it’s okay to have an abortion, and it’s contrary to Church teaching, does the fact that the Catholic had an abortion make it official Church teaching? I don’t think so. You’re using circular logic.

 

[Fiat]

DavidB:

But it is contrary to your claims earlier in the thread that said Catholics don’t actually believe this. They obviously do and now you’re OK with it cause it’s not contrary to your faith . . . so you’re changing your tune now? You now believe that you are guaranteed salvation regardless of having mortal sin in your life if you are wearing the scapular at death?

One of the problems with discussing this topic, as with others, is not even the believers of scapulars are in agreement with what they believe or think they believe.

The distinction you fail to make is that the merits are Christ’s merits. No one argues that there is merit in and of itself in the cloth without Christ’s salvific work on the cross. You very clearly indicated that you thought Catholics believed that wearing the scapular is a “guarantee” of salvation.

You stated:

Don’t most Catholics think they are guaranteed salvation by wearing it regardless of their sin condition?

Surely you are well-informed enough in Catholic faith to know that there is nothing that can take away our free will. The cooperation of our soul is always necessary. The guarantee is that grace is dispensed in a specific way.

Fiat

 

[Axion]

It’s curious that when those who say a prayer, are inducted into a form of the Carmelite order, and promise sincerely to dedicate themselves to those precepts, believe they have been promised graces to bring them to final contrition and eventual salvation, (if through the fires of purgatory) protestants start screaming about “another gospel”, heresy etc.

However when protestants teach that saying a single prayer in an emotional meeting hall, grants the grace of eternal “free-ticket” salvation and a crown of glory in heaven,** whatever sins and however unrepentant the sinner is subsequently**, apparently this is okay!!!

Which is the heresy?

 

[Church_Militant]

DavidB:

But it is contrary to your claims earlier in the thread that said Catholics don’t actually believe this. They obviously do and now you’re OK with it cause it’s not contrary to your faith . . . so you’re changing your tune now? You now believe that you are guaranteed salvation regardless of having mortal sin in your life if you are wearing the scapular at death?

One of the problems with discussing this topic, as with others, is not even the believers of scapulars are in agreement with what they believe or think they believe.And YOU’RE an authority on it all…even when I show you that you are misrepresenting what the devotion means. You are either being intentionally obtuse or argumentative. It’s clear that your bolded remark is not Catholic teaching and you have been told and shown it several times, yet you persist in alleging “a false gospel” and in so dong insult the faith of faithful Catholics. I would suggest that you drop this discussion and reconsider why you are here on CAF. You’ve been given a good Catholic Answer, and refuse it. It’s your problem now.

The distressing part is that you make an anti-Catholic allegation (that the Catholic Church teaches a false gospel.) and then sit there and try to tell us that we are wrong when we show you plainly that that is not the case.

As for the assertion that your church is in communion with the Catholic Church, that is not so. The fact that the ordinations are illicit means that you have nothing that we share with you aside from the essential Christian baptism, least of all communion, since we are not allowed to receive in such a church.

It doesn’t matter if some people are not spot on in their understanding of this or any other devotion, and again you are wrong in your debate over the simple facts that I have presented. My own statements are in line with both the New Testament and the teachings of the Catholic Church. Yours are not…

If you don’t like the brown scapular…don’t wear it, but don’t try to tell Catholics what you think of it, because it is nothing but a huge load of misstatements, misrepresentations and anti-Catholic rhetoric. I’ve seen many of your posts on here and it’s very clear that you have some kind of hang up about our Marian beliefs and that you have a miserable knowlege and understanding of them. BUT you have very strong opinions (ill informed as they are) about them and you are vocal in expressing them.

You should remind yourself that you are a guest here on a Catholic forum and that unless your intent is to be offensive to us, that any remarks that you make about Catholic belief and practice should be prefaced with something like IMO or “I think”…but to sit there and straight off allege that the church teaches “a false gospel” is offensive anti-Catholic rhetoric. If that is your opinion then why are you here? To attempt to mislead Catholics and lead them out of our most holy faith?