How to forgive Pope Francis

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Jestersage said:
It’s a shame, but even Christ lost 5000 disciples for insisting on truth.
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He lost 5,000 disciples who heard His talk about eating His flesh and walked away because they thought He was referring to literal cannibalism!

And He didn’t run after them to try to explain Himself or what He really meant. He expected them to trust Him a bit.
 
I will be gone for a day or more, so I ask that people continue to uphold charity and remember ccc2478, so that the thread will not close again. I may not be back until next Wednesday. Please, remember that this thread is about forgiveness.

Thanks, and blessings to everyone.
 
That’s some bad theology.
The pope is human.
He’s told us he’s a sinner.
God is the one who forgives and provides the source of all forgiveness.
He can, of course, sin against the Church, against people, and against God.

You appear to have some things very much backwards: The pope is not God.
 
No claim to fact you made was contradictory to anything I actually stated
 
Edward_H said:
Please, the patronizing slow wind up to all too “conditioned forgiveness” point you eventually got to was far more transparent than you realize. I could see it 3 posts ago.

‘Can you see" "Can you see’.

Are you a pre-school teacher by chance?

I am not conditioning my forgiveness. I am waiting for the wrecking to end.

I am simply doing what the father of the Prodigal son did…wait. That’s not “conditioning”; it’s just waiting.

Yes, I am very concerned that deliberately sowing confusion and playing too clever (sticking major points into footnotes of AL). It’s downright deceptive.
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But the Father didn’t do much waiting, not really.

Didn’t wait for the son to fully come.home but ran to meet him on the way. Didn’t wait for the son to apologise, didn’t demand evidence of changed life or views (ie that the son had stopped whoring and so on).

His forgiveness was far less ‘conditional’ than you seem to think.
 
We only know from the parable that he waited for quite a while as his spun out, giving himself over more and more to sin. A reasonable estimate is several years. (“a severe famine struck that country, and he found himself in dire need.”…that takes a while to develop).

He didn’t run to him until HE SAW HIM returning…until he saw proof of a return.

And his son got his confession out: “His son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you; I no longer deserve to be called your son.’”

The father was thus certain.
 
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OneSheep said:
One error occurs when one group claims that people of one particular political/ideological affiliation are themselves more worthy of the Eucharist than the other. Do you agree with this?
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You asked what I thought of your post.

Replying to your entire post…

I think it is difficult to generalize or conceptualize these ideas without defining different terms—like what constitutes “groups”. God created us uniquely because He values our individuality. Personality, culture, ethnicity, male or female, stages of life—all important and different and beautiful. But not bigotry and racism and types of superiority.

Jesus didn’t come to make understanding and consensus the goal. The love he preached was acceptance. It was the acceptance of others without exclusion, and yet also an invitation with specific criteria.

These criteria do determine whether you are “worthy” for admittance to the Eucharist.

Therefore, it depends on what you mean by “ideological affiliation.” Catholicism is a specific ideological affiliation expressed by the Creed that makes you worthy to recieve the Eucharist.

There are ideological and political affiliations that are not consistent with the Catholic faith. Some of them support “agendas” that are completely contrary to the specific criteria required for admittance to Communion. In this way, when “one group claims that people of one particular political/ideological affiliation are themselves more worthy of the Eucharist than the other,” they may not be wrong.

They may also not be capable of objectively determining who fits those categories. That is why we have the Church. The Church teaches that you have to vote consistently with your Catholic faith. It gets extremely complicated very quickly, because there hasn’t been many, if any, candidates up for election that are consistently in line with Church teaching.

Prayer is really the only true answer.
 
Edward_H said:
I am not conditioning my forgiveness. I am waiting for the wrecking to end.

I am simply doing what the father of the Prodigal son did…wait. That’s not “conditioning”; it’s just waiting.
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The Father waited on the return. He did not wait on forgiveness. That is why he went out to meet him. The forgiveness had happened long before the repentance.

Just to be clear though, I see not reason for forgiveness, as the Pope has not sinned against me.
 
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Was pointing out that your most recent comment was not actually contradictory to my own. You may have contrived a strawman in response to my rebuke of your accusation of the Pope, which would be analogous as mistaken for anyone else – for the same reasons.
 
We don’t know that.

Forgiveness is an act, not a feeling by the way. It’s a decision by the intellect and the will.
 
A point that all should take to heart. “The Church will prevail” is also something we should bear in mind. Rome is a city far away for most of us. Yes it would be nice if there wasn’t scandal or intrigue bopping around Vatican City, but there is, little of it has much bearing on our lives as Catholics. The church is made up with human beings, many who do their best and take their daily duties seriously.

We have too much to do, well, I do anyway, with the mountainous job of trying to live my life in a holy way, to really spend much time on the latest papal headline, or what this Cardinal or that Bishop has to say. I don’t know for sure, but I think St. Paul would pretty much tell us to focus on what is in front of us instead of what is going on in Italy.
 
Edward_H said:
We only know from the parable that he waited for quite a while as his spun out, giving himself over more and more to sin. A reasonable estimate is several years. (“a severe famine struck that country, and he found himself in dire need.”…that takes a while to develop).

He didn’t run to him until HE SAW HIM returning…until he saw proof of a return.

And his son got his confession out: “His son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you; I no longer deserve to be called your son.’”

The father was thus certain.
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Scripture is quite clear that the son did NOT get at least most of his apology out.

What some critics of Pope Francis seem to want is the equivalent of the son coming back home but apologising both to father and brother and fasting on bread and water for a few days before anyone condescends to forgive him, and only then being grudgingly forgiven and perhaps set to herd the father’s pigs instead of restored to his full rights as son.
 
What we know is what I pasted. "Father I have sinned against heaven and you. "

That’s a confession. Ownership and contrition.

But thanks for the effort. Didn’t work.
 
Edward_H said:
What we know is what I pasted. "Father I have sinned against heaven and you. "

That’s a confession. Ownership and contrition.

But thanks for the effort. Didn’t work.
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Says who? ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you.’ Could just as easily be followed by “… and I don’t care, and I’d do it again tomorrow” as anything else.
 
Edward_H said:
Please, the patronizing slow wind up to all too “conditioned forgiveness” point you eventually got to was far more transparent than you realize. I could see it 3 posts ago.

‘Can you see" "Can you see’.

Are you a pre-school teacher by chance?
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I think you’re being less than charitable and interpreting OneSheep incorrectly; it is clear they mean only good, so let’s hold off on the harsh attitudes.
 
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