How to get an ex-Mormon riled up

[BartBurk]

I’ve done it. I’ve opposed gay marriage over at [Moderator removed forum name to avoid board swarm]. It seems ex-Mormons seem to have a real interest in seeing Proposition 8 in California defeated. They believe it is trying to impose religious doctrine on society. That so many ex-Mormons wind up as agnostics and anti-religious is real interesting to me. They sure seem to want to see gay marriage implemented in California and everywhere else. Why do ex-Mormons generally turn against religion altogether? I’m an ex-Mormon who became Catholic. Are ex-Catholics as bad as ex-Mormons when they leave the Catholic Church when it comes to abandoning religion altogether?

 

[BlestOne]

Are ex-Catholics as bad as ex-Mormons when they leave the Catholic Church when it comes to abandoning religion altogether?

Many are… but another scenario is that there is a teaching that either they have determined is wrong or too difficult, and they go to a Protestant church that is OK with that particular issue and they become rabid anti-Catholics… at least from my experience.

 

[Jerusha]

People who have been burned by sick religion often reject religion outright.

Remember that Mormonism is extremely homophobic, to the point of condemning people who are celibate or who don’t fit gender stereotypes. Any extreme wakes up the opposite extreme, which is psychological defense mechanism known as reaction formation. They just don’t understand the concept of balance. Difficult to maintain in mo-country.

You have to understand that GBLT people are some of the first to exit form the [Moderator removed uncharitable terms], because of thier inability to conform to [Moderator removed uncharitable terms] strict behavioral standards. Those prohibited and denied feelings just seem to pop out all over the place. This happens because of low self-acceptance. Self-acceptance comes form accepting those feelings, and therefore learning to control them. And [Moderator removed uncharitable terms] culture condemns people for their feelings, rather than actions.

Hope this helps. I haven’t posted over there for a while. and I certainly don’t bring up that hot-button topic.

Yes, I have trouble with GBLT people who cannot accept Catholic teachings on the subject. But that is their choice, sad as it is.

 

[BDawg]

I’ve done it. I’ve opposed gay marriage over at Recovery from Mormonism. It seems ex-Mormons seem to have a real interest in seeing Proposition 8 in California defeated. They believe it is trying to impose religious doctrine on society. That so many ex-Mormons wind up as agnostics and anti-religious is real interesting to me. They sure seem to want to see gay marriage implemented in California and everywhere else. Why do ex-Mormons generally turn against religion altogether? I’m an ex-Mormon who became Catholic. Are ex-Catholics as bad as ex-Mormons when they leave the Catholic Church when it comes to abandoning religion altogether?

Hi Bart,

Disclaimer: Nothing I am going to say should be taken to imply that I think you are a bad guy, Mormonism is necessarily true, Catholicism is necessarily false, etc. And I’m going to be speaking in generalities, so I don’t necessarily mean that any of it necessarily applies to you.

One of the main causes for people leaving Mormonism (and many other religions) seems to me to be a “black-and-white” worldview that gets shattered. Maybe a person always thought that everything prophets say is always perfectly correct, and everything they do is always perfectly right. Maybe they thought that “archaeology has proven the Book of Mormon,” or that evolutionary theory is on thin ice. When they are confronted with the fact that these things aren’t true, or aren’t as clear-cut as they thought, they have several options.

1. They can stick their heads in the sand and ignore it. This allows them to keep their black-and-white worldview.
2. They can calm down and try to figure out where their thinking was wrong. In other words, they can try to develop a more nuanced worldview. (Heck, I always thought that actually reading the Bible was a good cure for a black-and-white mentality, but scads of fundamentalists read it every day, and it doesn’t seem to make a dent.)
3. They might see very clearly that other religious systems have similar problems, and go atheist. This is essentially just keeping the black-and-white worldview, but turning it on its head.
4. They might choose another religion where they can keep a “black-and-white” worldview, and hope that the same problems don’t come up if they don’t look too hard.

Those who choose options 3 and 4 leave the Church. Those who choose options 1 and 2 generally don’t, but option 2 might lead some people to another religious system.

The attraction of option 3 is that you get to be a self-righteous prig, violently condemning your former religion while trying out all those little pleasures you don’t consider sins, anymore. You can put your fundamentalist faith in “science,” even though you don’t have a clue how science works. You can substitute whatever liberal values are in vogue for your former notion of morality, thus reinforcing your sense of self-righteousness.

The attraction of option 4 is that you get to be a self-righteous prig, violently condemning your former religion, but feeling emotionally safe, again. You don’t want to rock the boat, though, when it comes to your new religion, because you might be confronted with another “grey area” crisis.

I believe that many of the ex-Mormons who post here (not all) took option 4. (From what I remember of you, Bart, I would not necessarily put you in this category.) One of my tactics here has been to turn charges made against Mormonism on their heads, showing how the same or very similar criticisms could be made with respect to Catholicism, the Bible, or whatever. This turns some of the ex-Mormons here absolutely rabid. Why? Because I’m killing the buzz they get by condemning their former faith and holding onto a “safe” fundamentalist version of Catholicism.

The same thing happens to you when you post your “anti-gay” message on RFM. You are killing their fundamentalist buzz, and you therefore get flamed.

So unless you are like me, and you get a perverse sense of pleasure out of goading fundamentalists of any sort… stop being a buzzkill.

 

[ralphinal]

Hi Bart,

Disclaimer: Nothing I am going to say should be taken to imply that I think you are a bad guy, Mormonism is necessarily true, Catholicism is necessarily false, etc. And I’m going to be speaking in generalities, so I don’t necessarily mean that any of it necessarily applies to you.

One of the main causes for people leaving Mormonism (and many other religions) seems to me to be a “black-and-white” worldview that gets shattered. Maybe a person always thought that everything prophets say is always perfectly correct, and everything they do is always perfectly right. Maybe they thought that “archaeology has proven the Book of Mormon,” or that evolutionary theory is on thin ice. When they are confronted with the fact that these things aren’t true, or aren’t as clear-cut as they thought, they have several options.

1. They can stick their heads in the sand and ignore it. This allows them to keep their black-and-white worldview.
2. They can calm down and try to figure out where their thinking was wrong. In other words, they can try to develop a more nuanced worldview. (Heck, I always thought that actually reading the Bible was a good cure for a black-and-white mentality, but scads of fundamentalists read it every day, and it doesn’t seem to make a dent.)
3. They might see very clearly that other religious systems have similar problems, and go atheist. This is essentially just keeping the black-and-white worldview, but turning it on its head.
4. They might choose another religion where they can keep a “black-and-white” worldview, and hope that the same problems don’t come up if they don’t look too hard.

Those who choose options 3 and 4 leave the Church. Those who choose options 1 and 2 generally don’t, but option 2 might lead some people to another religious system.

The attraction of option 3 is that you get to be a self-righteous prig, violently condemning your former religion while trying out all those little pleasures you don’t consider sins, anymore. You can put your fundamentalist faith in “science,” even though you don’t have a clue how science works. You can substitute whatever liberal values are in vogue for your former notion of morality, thus reinforcing your sense of self-righteousness.

The attraction of option 4 is that you get to be a self-righteous prig, violently condemning your former religion, but feeling emotionally safe, again. You don’t want to rock the boat, though, when it comes to your new religion, because you might be confronted with another “grey area” crisis.

I believe that many of the ex-Mormons who post here (not all) took option 4. (From what I remember of you, Bart, I would not necessarily put you in this category.) One of my tactics here has been to turn charges made against Mormonism on their heads, showing how the same or very similar criticisms could be made with respect to Catholicism, the Bible, or whatever. This turns some of the ex-Mormons here absolutely rabid. Why? Because I’m killing the buzz they get by condemning their former faith and holding onto a “safe” fundamentalist version of Catholicism.

The same thing happens to you when you post your “anti-gay” message on RFM. You are killing their fundamentalist buzz, and you therefore get flamed.

So unless you are like me, and you get a perverse sense of pleasure out of goading fundamentalists of any sort… stop being a buzzkill.

Wow. VEry deep, very good post.

 

[BDawg]

People who have been burned by sick religion often reject religion outright.

Remember that Mormonism is extremely homophobic, to the point of condemning people who are celibate or who don’t fit gender stereotypes. Any extreme wakes up the opposite extreme, which is psychological defense mechanism known as reaction formation. They just don’t understand the concept of balance. Difficult to maintain in mo-country.

You have to understand that GBLT people are some of the first to exit form the Morg, because of thier inability to conform to Morgdom’s strict behavioral standards. Those prohibited and denied feelings just seem to pop out all over the place. This happens because of low self-acceptance. Self-acceptance comes form accepting those feelings, and therefore learning to control them. And Morg culture condemns people for their feelings, rather than actions.

Hope this helps. I haven’t posted over there for a while. and I certainly don’t bring up that hot-button topic.

Yes, I have trouble with GBLT people who cannot accept Catholic teachings on the subject. But that is their choice, sad as it is.

Jerusha,

Your post is ridiculously rude. “Morg”?

Also, Mormonism does not condemn people who are celibate. There are a number of reasons to be celibate. We simply believe that the ideal is for people to be in heterosexual marriages. I have dealt with this issue quite a bit, because my brother is gay.

We also do not condemn people who have homosexual feelings, but choose not to act on them. We find that laudable, in fact.

And speaking of “prohibited and denied feelings popping out,” wouldn’t that be a reasonable explanation for the problem with homosexuality and pedophilia among Catholic priests? (BTW, I know that most priests do not have these problems. But it is significant. I know a guy who went to a Catholic seminary for 3 years, but left because it was a “pink” seminary, where the majority of teachers and students were gay… with each other. Happily, the Catholic bishops seem to be cracking down on this kind of thing.)

 

[Publisher]

It’s interesting, many leave the “black and white” “this is how it is” world view of conservative faith traditions and move toward a very secular view…I have found the same happens when those who insturct their members to “work it out”…“find Truth how you understand it.”

I have found many ex-Quakers, ex-Unitarians, many ex-_________ that have belonged to those groups that while not believing truth is “relative” but believe Truth filtered through finite humanity is always flawed in it’s interpretation, turn either toward heavy secularism or a very conservative tradition where everything is “spelled” out for them on almost every issue. “What do we believe about XYZ” “Here’s a definitve authoritive answer for you…” Questions such as "How should I believe about “gay marriage”? “How should I feel about divorce and remarriage?” “How should I believe about reproductive choice?”…etc…just look in the “Moral Theology” section of this forum and one will see many many people concerned with the minute details of “Is this a sin?”…and will always get multiple answers from “armchair” moralists.

Morality is important…but unless it is “owned” as an intricate part of ones spiritual and psychological make-up…correct moral behavior tends to be simply “fire insurance” for most people of faith

For many people that works…for others it doesn’t.

It’s always easier to follow the rules and be told what to do…it takes any guess work out of it…but for some of us the Journey of Discovery is more important than the Destination.

I suspect many leave “black and white” religious traditions for different reasons many leave “find out on your own” traditions…the meaning they are searching for just wasn’t met in either…

Sorry, I’m rambling…the previous post from BDawg just got me to thinking…and that can be dangerous at times.

 

[RebeccaJ]

So unless you are like me, and you get a perverse sense of pleasure out of goading fundamentalists of any sort… stop being a buzzkill.

I didn’t leave for any of the “reasons” you have going there. buzzkill.

 

[BDawg]

I didn’t leave for any of the “reasons” you have going there. buzzkill.

So you were trying to rationalize your sins?

Just kidding.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I’ve done it. I’ve opposed gay marriage over at Recovery from Mormonism. It seems ex-Mormons seem to have a real interest in seeing Proposition 8 in California defeated. They believe it is trying to impose religious doctrine on society. That so many ex-Mormons wind up as agnostics and anti-religious is real interesting to me. They sure seem to want to see gay marriage implemented in California and everywhere else. Why do ex-Mormons generally turn against religion altogether? I’m an ex-Mormon who became Catholic. Are ex-Catholics as bad as ex-Mormons when they leave the Catholic Church when it comes to abandoning religion altogether?

Human behavior is more complex than the black/white thinking that is encouraged in Mormonism. But, I do agree with Jerusha, and will add that Mormonism does not teach people how to deal with or understand their own feelings.Rather, it dictates to people what their own feelings mean.

It is a major mind (f-bomb).

 

[RebeccaJ]

So you were trying to rationalize your sins?

Just kidding.

Close dog boy.

I did indeed like to sin. I also tried to find forgiveness, confessing up to a mormon bishop. Problem was, I never could find forgiveness. Mormonsim taught me that God rejects me, at the ripe old age of 16. So, I said f’ you to that god and rejected him right back.

Mormonism has not changed in this respect. Not as long as you believe that you can be and have to be worthy of God’s love…I already know that will never happen for me. I will never be worthy of God’s love.

The Catholic Church led me to the true nature of God. God who gives unconditional love and where I try my darndest to act as one who is loved by God. To follow in His Way. But I will never be worthy of that love. And when I go to confession, I know that God has forgiven me and isn’t going to bring up previous sins when I sin all over again.

This goes directly to the OP. Someone who is a homosexual in the Mormon church is going to fail and fail often, and so you have taught people that god is a bastard who only loves people who are worthy.

And it goes to your hypothesis as well, as I see many an ex-Mormon who still believe in the false mormon god who is a bastard. Even those who call themselves atheist.

Thus, people are led out of Mormonism and into atheism.

 

[BDawg]

This is an interesting psychological experiment. I describe to Bart a certain type of ex-Mormon who inhabits CAF, and who turns up but Jerusha and Rebecca! Jerusha just can’t help calling Mormons “the Morg,” and Rebecca can’t make a point without calling Mormonism “a major mind (f-bomb).” They’re angry… ANGRY… that their black-and-white Mormon worldviews were shattered, and now they cling to a fundamentalist version of Catholicism. And yet, they can’t see it. Now that they’re totally liberated, objective observers of humanity, they can clearly see how deluded they were, and how perfectly true and up-front their version of Catholicism is. Let’s see what they say to this.

“I assert that the historical evidence for Peter being the first bishop of Rome, and the Roman bishops being primates of the Church in the second century, is extremely thin.”

So how about it, J & R? Just how good do YOU think the evidence is in this area?

 

[RebeccaJ]

“I assert that the historical evidence for Peter being the first bishop of Rome, and the Roman bishops being primates of the Church in the second century, is extremely thin.”

So how about it, J & R? Just how good do YOU think the evidence is in this area?

Gotta give me something more than that. I could say God is a block of cheese on the moon and ask you about the evidence in that area. And???

And, my angry exmormon days are over, believe me, I tried to stay angry. Can’t. But neither do I sugarcoat what mormonism is.

And armchair pop psychology is so passe.

 

[xmydreamsfadex]

this has nothing to do with the topic but something i thought was weird is i have only met one attractive mormon girl growing up.

 

[Jerusha]

I describe to Bart a certain type of ex-Mormon who inhabits CAF, and who turns up but Jerusha and Rebecca! Jerusha just can’t help calling Mormons “the Morg,” and Rebecca can’t make a point without calling Mormonism “a major mind (f-bomb).” They’re angry… ANGRY… that their black-and-white Mormon worldviews were shattered, and now they cling to a fundamentalist version of Catholicism.

Number one. I am NOT an angry ex-Mormon. I have NEVER been Mormon. And If you really would ever know the REAL reason I participate in this debate, you would REALLY blow your lid.

I am NOT a “fundamentalist Catholic”. Neither will I ever be. No church can tell me how to think. My thinking just conforms to Catholic thinking, because that is the faith I was raised in. And I congratulate Rebecca’s and Bart’s recognition that that was the direction they were moving to.

 

[BDawg]

Gotta give me something more than that. I could say God is a block of cheese on the moon and ask you about the evidence in that area. And???

And, my angry exmormon days are over, believe me, I tried to stay angry. Can’t. But neither do I sugarcoat what mormonism is.

And armchair pop psychology is so passe.

Rebecca, I just asked how good you think the evidence is for the proposition that Peter was the first bishop of Rome, and that the Roman bishops were primates of the Church in through the second century. I assume you believe these standard Catholic claims? If so, how iron-clad do you think the evidence for them is?

 

[adstrinity]

Difficult to maintain in mo-country.

Do you mean MOrmon or hoMO?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca, I just asked how good you think the evidence is for the proposition that Peter was the first bishop of Rome, and that the Roman bishops were primates of the Church in through the second century. I assume you believe these standard Catholic claims? If so, how iron-clad do you think the evidence for them is?

Bishops as the apostles successors, I think the evidence is good. Iron-clad? Honestly, good enough for me considering we’re talking 2000 years ago.

Peter as the first Bishop of Rome, the evidence is good on that as well.

Both better than JS first vision claims, which have nothing but the word of one boy behind them: JS himself. And a much easier history to look at because it is recent.

I think atheism is more valid than mormonism.

 

[RobHom]

this has nothing to do with the topic but something i thought was weird is i have only met one attractive mormon girl growing up.

One of the first girls who broke my heart was a very attractive Mormon girl many years ago in junior high…and she had some good looking sisters too!

 

[BDawg]

Close dog boy.

I did indeed like to sin. I also tried to find forgiveness, confessing up to a mormon bishop. Problem was, I never could find forgiveness. Mormonsim taught me that God rejects me, at the ripe old age of 16. So, I said f’ you to that god and rejected him right back.

Rebecca, you are a pop psychologist’s dream! Sit back on my couch, and I shall psychologize you.

People with a “black-and-white” mindset usually only hear what they want to hear. You might object that you didn’t “want” to hear those messages about that unloving God who condemns people until they are “worthy,” but people “want” all kinds of twisted, sick things when they have a problem with self-hate.

**Case in point. **

I have been a Mormon for 38 years, and somehow I never got the message that God doesn’t love me when I screw up. I’ve always been taught that God loves sinners and reaches out to them, and that God wants to bless us with all things. But God can only give us what we are ready to receive, and so we have to try to be “worthy” of God’s blessings. Even though God loves everyone, he can get ticked at them if they keep willfully sinning, and they might get a come-uppance. This seems to me to be a balanced way of looking at things, reconciling all those scriptural passages that talk about God’s unfailing love, and those that talk about his anger at sinners.

On the other hand, you seem to have only heard the part about the “angry God,” even though I am certain that the other side was presented to you many, many times. In your self-hating little world, where you “liked to sin,” but wanted God to give you a pass, you only heard the “angry God” message because you knew you weren’t right with God.

So you jumped ship, wallowed in petty atheism for a while, and finally latched onto some Pollyanna, cream-puff version of Catholicism, where nobody has ever heard of the phrase, “Catholic guilt.”

You should Google the phrase “Catholic guilt.” I did, and got almost 74,000 hits. There’s even a Wikipedia article about it. One of the first hits was from a BB where someone named “Cindy” posted the following:

Hi,
I have never posted on this board before, only the “original” board about people on meds. I am glad there is a board here on faith.

I have a question that I am hoping to find some help with. I grew up Catholic – lived in a devout Catholic family, went to Catholic school for 12 years, etc. For many reasons I no longer practice Catholicism, but I am strong in my Christian faith (attend a nondenominational church.)

I have suffered from depression and anxiety for at least 20 years, have tried many different meds and been in and out of counseling. Lately, I have had two pdocs tell me that I suffer from trenendous guilt. One of them had just met me, and he asked if I was Catholic. At first I said no, and then I said, “But I was raised a devout Catholic.” The pdoc went on to say “I could smell it!” meaning he had a feeling I had a Catholic upbringing because of all the guilt I suffer from.

My question is this … why? I am trying to look back on my childhood and figure out why I still suffer from guilt now that I know I am saved by grace. One pdoc even said that people don’t ever recover from the guilt they incur by being raised Catholic. I understand that not all Catholics are guilt-ridden, but could someone try to explain to me why my Catholic upbringing may be causing me so much guilt to this day? (Basically, I feel guilty about everything – every wrong move, wrong word, etc.) I am 42 years old (as of midnight!) and I still have this.

And one more question – how do I get rid of it? Any recommendations on books or workbooks?
Thanks so much for any help you can give me!
cindy

Ah, those angry-God Catholics. When will they learn that they are “saved by grace”?

Can you see the parallel? This person grew up Catholic, and somehow only got the negative, sinners-are-damned sort of messages. She snapped, and ended up in some fundamentalist Christian church where she has finally learned that she is saved by grace! You grew up Mormon, and somehow only got the negative, sinners-are-damned sort of messages. You snapped, and ended up in the Catholic church, where you finally learned that you are saved by grace!

Let’s just hope that as you and Cindy skip along in your respective magical fairylands where you feel so free and easy, that you don’t bother to ever read the Bible. You might stumble upon inconvenient passages like this:

16 ¶ These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

 18  An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, 

 19  A false witness *that* speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.  (Proverbs 6:16-19)

Oh, I’m sure that you can find a way to reinterpret this according to your magical worldview, but here’s a warning. THERE’S LOTS MORE LIKE THIS IN THERE! Avoid it like the plague, or one day you’ll find that all those mental gymnastics are too tiring, and you will have another crisis. Your black-and-white world will crumble.