How to get an ex-Mormon riled up

[BDawg]

Do you mean MOrmon or hoMO?

“Mo” is a standard, insulting label that people who hate Mormons often use. People who use this label often also use the label “Morg,” as Jerusha did, to imply that Mormons can’t think for themselves.

 

[RobHom]

Ah, those angry-God Catholics. When will they learn that they are “saved by grace”?

Actually, I would probably be inclined to “discount” what “Cindy” had to say… I was born and raised Catholic…and I have never been taught about an “angry” God…nor was I inflicted with “guilt”. I was taught a set of morals and beliefs…but nor inflicted with guilt of any sort. For the most part…what is called “Catholic Guilt” is just the same as “Jewish Guilt”, or any other kind of guilt. By the way…Wikipedia is about as “reliable” a source of information as “Pravda”…

If I had but a nickel for every “internet-posting-former-Catholic” who “found” God… I would be driving a brand new Bentley paid for with cash and retired to my private island in the Med!

 

[BDawg]

Actually, I would probably be inclined to “discount” what “Cindy” had to say… I was born and raised Catholic…and I have never been taught about an “angry” God…nor was I inflicted with “guilt”. I was taught a set of morals and beliefs…but nor inflicted with guilt of any sort. For the most part…what is called “Catholic Guilt” is just the same as “Jewish Guilt”, or any other kind of guilt. By the way…Wikipedia is about as “reliable” a source of information as “Pravda”…

If I had but a nickel for every “internet-posting-former-Catholic” who “found” God… I would be driving a brand new Bentley paid for with cash and retired to my private island in the Med!

My point exactly, Rob. Now can you take the next step and say that you would be inclined to discount what RebeccaJ had to say? Or are you only able to think critically about claims made by people that disagree with you?

 

[grandfather]

]Mormonism has not changed in this respect. Not as long as you believe that you can be and have to be worthy of God’s love…I already know that will never happen for me. I will never be worthy of God’s love.

You will be worthy if God makes you worthy.

The Catholic Church led me to the true nature of God. God who gives unconditional love and where I try my darndest to act as one who is loved by God.

Rebecca,
This makes no sense. You are usually very clear. Do you mean the teaching of the Church allow you to understand divine nature? Our response to grace is how we live, and gratitude, and obedience which is love. When we experience love we give it back. Is this what you mean?

To follow in His Way. But I will never be worthy of that love. And when I go to confession, I know that God has forgiven me and isn’t going to bring up previous sins when I sin all over again.

Confession is a miraculous experience no doubt. Do you think if your sins are forgiven that makes you worthy to be loved, lovable?

 

[BDawg]

Bishops as the apostles successors, I think the evidence is good. Iron-clad? Honestly, good enough for me considering we’re talking 2000 years ago.

Here’s an alternative view from a respected Catholic historian, Father Francis Sullivan.

“One conclusion seems obvious: Neither the New Testament nor early Christian history offers support for a notion of apostolic succession as ‘an unbroken line of episcopal ordination from Christ through the apostles down through the centuries to the bishops of today.’ Clearly, such a simplistic approach to the problem will not do. On the other hand, many reputable Catholic scholars, who share the consensus regarding the gradual development of the episcopate in the early church, remain convinced that we do have solid grounds for holding that bishops are the successors of the apostles. Such scholars agree that along with the evidence from the New Testament and early Christian documents, one must invoke a theological argument based on Christian faith to arrive at the conclusion that bishops are the successors of the apostles ‘by divine institution.’ At the same time, they insist that the evidence from the New Testament and early Christian literature is crucial, and must be treated with scholarly integrity. It is counterproductive to put forth arguments that will not stand the test of critical exegesis or historical investigation.” (Francis A. Sullivan, S.J., From Apostles to Bishops: The Development of the Episcopacy in the Early Church, Mahwah, NJ: Newman Press, 2001, 15-16.)

You see, he is arguing that bishops are the successors of the apostles, but admits that one can’t come to that conclusion by means of historical evidence. One must invoke a “theological argument”. In other words, he is saying that the episcopacy (and papacy) is valid, but that the Church “grew into it.” Lots of legends popped up about the origin of the papacy, etc., with Peter, but those are probably fantasy.

Now, Sullivan is no flaming liberal, and Newman Press isn’t known for printing heresy, as far as I know. Does this intrigue you? Or will you dismiss it without any inclination to read the evidence Sullivan has collected?

 

[adstrinity]

“Mo” is a standard, insulting label that people who hate Mormons often use. People who use this label often also use the label “Morg,” as Jerusha did, to imply that Mormons can’t think for themselves.

It can also refer to homosexuals. I was unclear as to which was meant. Thank you for the info!

 

[RebeccaJ]

You will be worthy if God makes you worthy.

Rebecca,
This makes no sense. You are usually very clear. Do you mean the teaching of the Church allow you to understand divine nature? Our response to grace is how we live, and gratitude, and obedience which is love. When we experience love we give it back. Is this what you mean?

Confession is a miraculous experience no doubt. Do you think if your sins are forgiven that makes you worthy to be loved, lovable?

done talking about myself

 

[RobHom]

My point exactly, Rob. Now can you take the next step and say that you would be inclined to discount what RebeccaJ had to say? Or are you only able to think critically about claims made by people that disagree with you?

You’re trying to put me on the spot… Thats Ok, but…before I would “discount” what RebeccaJ has to say…or support what she has to say…I would have to read more of what she has to say. She certainly speaks bluntly and to the point. Mind you…I’m not trying to throw up a smoke screen, but rather be fair. There is a significant difference between “questioning” a quote from another website used to make a point…especially when I see a “questionable” testimony.

No, I’m not critical in my thinking only where those that disagree with me or my thoughts are concerned. I’m a bit of a “free thinker” and have been known to wander far afield and work both sides of the coin…

The difference to me where Cindy and RebeccaJ are concerned is this: I cannot query Cindy, but I can RebeccaJ. I can converse with her by PM’s and get a sense of her feelings and positions if she permits it. Its a freedom that she can grant me, but I cannot get the same from Cindy.

Beyond that frankly, while I have known many Mormons in my life, and had Mormon friends… I really don’t know that much about the Mormon faith. So I am not qualified to comment in that area, and you will find that I haven’t in the past. So, my lack of knowledge handicaps my ability to really discount or support what anyone says about the Mormon Church or its beliefs.

 

[BDawg]

You’re trying to put me on the spot… Thats Ok, but…before I would “discount” what RebeccaJ has to say…or support what she has to say…I would have to read more of what she has to say.

Hi Rob,

Fair enough. But just let me assure you that Mormonism teaches that God loves sinners. Period. My experience growing up Mormon was much like what you described about your Catholic upbringing. But just like Catholicism, Mormonism does place quite a bit of emphasis on doing good works. James said “Faith without works is dead,” and to us, “repenting” means sincerely trying not to commit the same sin again. We are “born again,” but this involves the kind of change of heart that allows a change in actions. We can never “earn” salvation, but when we exercise faith, God works with us to change us into new creatures.

It’s a nuanced view of faith/grace/works, pretty similar to what Catholicism teaches. But just like you guys, we have our share of people who ignore one side of the coin or the other. Rebecca is an example of someone who ignored the “grace” side of the coin when she was a Mormon, and now that she is Catholic, she seems unaware of the bits about God not being too happy with sinners. (Which is weird. If you want to be “all grace, all the time,” my advice is to join a non-denominational, evangelical Christian church, like “Cindy” did.)

If you don’t believe what I’m saying about Mormonism, check out this webpage.

In any case, can you see my point? Rebecca’s rant about her exit from Mormonism is almost exactly like Cindy’s experience. And yet, you know just as well as I do that Cindy’s description of Catholic teachings is really twisted. Same with Rebecca’s description of Mormon teachings.

The moral: Many people who hang around internet BBs ranting about their former religions are unbalanced, and cannot be trusted to give a fair-minded account. They usually didn’t understand their former religions very well, and don’t understand their present religions very well, either.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

Close dog boy.

I did indeed like to sin. I also tried to find forgiveness, confessing up to a mormon bishop. Problem was, I never could find forgiveness. Mormonsim taught me that God rejects me, at the ripe old age of 16. So, I said f’ you to that god and rejected him right back.

Mormonism has not changed in this respect. Not as long as you believe that you can be and have to be worthy of God’s love…I already know that will never happen for me. I will never be worthy of God’s love.

The Catholic Church led me to the true nature of God. God who gives unconditional love and where I try my darndest to act as one who is loved by God. To follow in His Way. But I will never be worthy of that love. And when I go to confession, I know that God has forgiven me and isn’t going to bring up previous sins when I sin all over again.

This goes directly to the OP. Someone who is a homosexual in the Mormon church is going to fail and fail often, and so you have taught people that god is a bastard who only loves people who are worthy.

And it goes to your hypothesis as well, as I see many an ex-Mormon who still believe in the false mormon god who is a bastard. Even those who call themselves atheist.

Thus, people are led out of Mormonism and into atheism.

I’ve notice you say this sort of thing quite a few times on certain threads concerning Mormonism, namely that Mormonism requires that one earns his/her love from God. I can’t say that I’ve had the same experience with the LDS church. To the contrary, believing that I was a literal child of God (no matter how erroneous I now believe such a belief to be) left me with a sense of the utmost assurance even in a state of deepest depravity.

I was curious if you could expound on exactly how you feel Mormonism leads one to believe that one must be “worthy” of God’s love. If too touchy of a topic for you, feel free to respond privately via email.

~B.

 

[BDawg]

done talking about myself

Hi Rebecca,

I’m not done psychologizing you.

I notice that as you prance around in the eternal sunshine of the spotless mind, unaware that many people leave Catholicism for exactly the same reasons you left Mormonism, you are incredibly critical of your former religion. (And sporadically foul-mouthed about it.) This is actually a manifestation of a peculiar phenomenon among black-and-white thinking people.

When you had your “grey area crisis” and left Mormonism, you were angry, and probably read every anti-Mormon screed you could get your hands on, collecting evidence for the prosecution of your former faith. As the evidence mounted, you could see so clearly that you had been hoodwinked, tricked, deceived. The evidence was overwhelming! As your anger subsided, you substituted another feeling: smug superiority. Sure, you were deceived before, but you were just a kid! Now you can calmly discuss what a “mind (f-bomb)” you have bravely escaped. You’re a hero! Calling other people’s religions “mind (f-bombs)” isn’t rude, condescending, low-class, trailer-trash bigotry, because you are just boldly proclaiming the truths you have so bravely discovered, at great personal cost. No “sugar-coating” for you.

In place of your first black-and-white worldview (a twisted version of Mormonism hatched in the mind of a rebellious teenager,) you have adopted another (Pollyanna Catholicism.) But you came out ahead in the deal, because now many Catholics will laud you as a heroine for bravely escaping from the Mormon Cult! You have it all, now, because you have a nice, new black-and-white worldview, and you can pretend that you are a brave defender of intellectual honesty.

But in the end, you’re just the same as you ever were.

 

[cathizzle]

I’ve done it. I’ve opposed gay marriage over at Recovery from Mormonism. It seems ex-Mormons seem to have a real interest in seeing Proposition 8 in California defeated. They believe it is trying to impose religious doctrine on society. That so many ex-Mormons wind up as agnostics and anti-religious is real interesting to me. They sure seem to want to see gay marriage implemented in California and everywhere else. Why do ex-Mormons generally turn against religion altogether? I’m an ex-Mormon who became Catholic. Are ex-Catholics as bad as ex-Mormons when they leave the Catholic Church when it comes to abandoning religion altogether?

It is extremely interesting. I don’t know weather or not this is a stereotype. I personally know two former LDS church members who are extremely opposed to organized religion, and appear completely burned out altogether, don’t even want to talk about it.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

To the OP:

I think that you’re coming to a conclusion based upon a faulty representation, specifically how you’re basing your assessment on the presumed majority of ex-Mormons based upon the behavior of certain ex-Mormons on a MORMON forum.

I think this distinction is important as it demonstrates something fundamental: Someone who hates something is going to stop at nothing to antagonize that which he hates. This is likely why you noticed such a reaction to Mormonism by ex-Mormons on a MORMON forum.

I don’t have such animosity against my former faith, and I especially don’t have such an animosity against the practitioners of said faith, which is exactly why I don’t bother wasting any time frequenting Mormon forums. Granted, I may inject my very frank opinion concerning Mormonism (the faith not the people) when the question arises in such places as CATHOLIC Answers Forum, but notice that in such instances a practically explicit invitation to share such feelings is eluded to by virtue of the topic arising on a non-Mormon forum (and more specifically a CATHOLIC forum).

Point in hand:

If you’re looking for the ex-Mormons that counteract those vapid ex-Mormons that seem to despise all theism in general, you likely wont find them on/in/around a Mormon-centered community (be it physical or electronic).

 

[cathizzle]

“Mo” is a standard, insulting label that people who hate Mormons often use. People who use this label often also use the label “Morg,” as Jerusha did, to imply that Mormons can’t think for themselves.

I have Mormon friends who refer to themselves as “Mo,” I guess they might hate themselves, but I don’t think so.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Hi Rebecca,

I’m not done psychologizing you.

You know nothing about me, so stop making up what you don’t know…nothing but ad hominem…why is that dog boy? what is it you fear about me that you have to spend so much energy demonizing a perfect stranger on the internet?

 

[BDawg]

I have Mormon friends who refer to themselves as “Mo,” I guess they might hate themselves, but I don’t think so.

The label “Mormon” was originally used as an insult, but we adopted it, anyway. Somehow I doubt we will ever adopt the label “Morg,” though.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

I have Mormon friends who refer to themselves as “Mo,” I guess they might hate themselves, but I don’t think so.

Then this should serve as evidence that Mormons (as people) are not one, large, monolithic group acting and feeling exactly how their 1st Presidency tells them.

I too growing up had no qualms with the term “Mo” yet it seems BDawg does.

If the Latter-day Saints were one homogenized cult, then one would expect all it’s members to have the same standards of offense, yet this little anecdotal exercise seems to dispel that notion.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

The label “Mormon” was originally used as an insult, but we adopted it, anyway. Somehow I doubt we will ever adopt the label “Morg,” though.

Don’t be so sure!

I have journals written at the hands of my pioneer ancestors who swore up and down that the term “Christian” was never to be attributed to “the Saints”…

… yet here we are in 2008 and the GAs take time out of General Conference to assure the world that the LDS are Christians.

Who knows, one day at least a small fringe of Mormons may embrace “Morg”.

Personally too “new-agy” for my taste

 

[BDawg]

You know nothing about me, so stop making up what you don’t know…nothing but ad hominem…why is that dog boy? what is it you fear about me that you have to spend so much energy demonizing a perfect stranger on the internet?

Hi Rebecca,

I don’t know. Maybe I don’t appreciate it when others call my religion a “mind (f-bomb)”, and then pat themselves on the back for not “sugar-coating” the “truth”. I don’t see what I did as “demonizing” you. Rather, I just poked a hole in your delusion that you are some kind of champion of intellectual honesty.

 

[why_me]

Jerusha,

Your post is ridiculously rude. “Morg”?

Also, Mormonism does not condemn people who are celibate. There are a number of reasons to be celibate. We simply believe that the ideal is for people to be in heterosexual marriages. I have dealt with this issue quite a bit, because my brother is gay.

Not only do mormons not condemn celibacy but they highly recommend it for those who are not married. In fact, the lds church is a strong supporter of celibacy for unmarried people.

The inference to ‘Morg’ is a term that antimormons use to define a membership that is of one mind and somewhat robotic. What they refuse to acknowledge is that Paul counseled the churches to be of one mind and one accord as a body in christ.