How to get to heaven

[moondweller]

That sounds very Catholic except that last part where the fuller teaching is that “salvation” is simultaneously a past, present and future even and can be lost if one does not keep themselves in grace and repent and be forgiven if they sin gravely.

You speak of salvation as only a potential based on YOUR performance and not Christ’s. The Apostolic teaching is that one is saved “BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH,” not by their “keeping themselves in grace.” “Grace” (unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor) is not something in which one is kept, but rather the means by which God Himself saves the one who puts his faith in the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ (Eph. 2:8-10). The blood of Christ being the price paid to redeem the sinner from his sinful estate (through faith), and the message concerning ALL sins is this:Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Acts 13:38 “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,”

Col 1:14 “…in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.”

Your chronology would seem reasonable except that you have an assumption that salvation is a one time event. There is no such concept in the bible as salvation being a one time event nor in there any in the apostolic teaching. We are taught that we must again repent and be forgiven for each and every grave sin committed after baptism.

You deny the inherent meaning of “saved.” “Saved” by definition is a one time event and by definition cannot be lost. Else the word is truly meaningless, insignificant, and having no assigned function in the English language.

If one must be “saved” multiple times then (1) he was never “saved” in the first place, and (2) salvation is not in the least bit based on Christ’s work but one’s own. IOW, you express no concept of the meaning of the word. Yet Scripture states emphatically to the believer: “For by grace you have been saved through faith…”

If one is “saved” then he is not “being saved.” If one is “being saved” then he is not “saved.” If one hopes he “will be saved” then he is neither “being saved” nor was he ever “saved.” Based on the inherent meaning of the word, either one is “saved” or he is not.

In 1 Cor 1:18 “For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God,” both “perishing” and “saved” are in the present tense. But they are meant in a frequentative sense, not durative. IOW, in that passage Paul regards the cross as God’s saving instrumentality and in that passage portrays the constant stream of the lost during this age (those perishing) as toppling into eternity without Christ (unbelievers), vs. the constant stream of the saved during this age (believers) entering the door of eternal fellowship with Christ. Contrary to what you say, “being saved” is no more stated here as a process than “perishing” is.

In Rom. 5:9 Paul is not stating a future salvation from Divine judgment, but that those who “having now been justified by His blood” (through faith in Him), “shall be saved” from the wrath of God ('through Him") that is yet to come upon this earth. All the “justified by His blood” are promised to be saved (spared) from a specific future event.

Of course to prevent perverting the apostolic teaching it is important to understand that sanctification is normally a life long “process” and not a one-shot event that is only completed at death when one is crowned in glory in heaven. It’s clear from Acts 26:18 that “those who have been sanctified” are in heaven - it only becomes a past tense and done-deal in eternity.

No, those “who have been sanctified” in Acts 26:18 are believing Jews. Paul was sent to the Gentiles with the gospel of Christ and those of the Gentiles who believe are now sanctified in Christ along with the believing Jews. Whether Jew or Gentile, being sanctified (set apart) in Christ is a one time event upon faith in Him.1 Cor 1:2 “To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their {Lord} and ours:”

Heb 10:10 "By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."It’s true there is an experiential sanctification for the believer here on earth as he grows in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ - as he matures in his faith. Nonetheless, he “has been sanctified” (set apart) positionally (eternally) in the resurrected Christ, having been bought (redeemed/purchased) by the price of His blood (1 Cor. 6:19; 7:23).
At the resurrection or translation of the believer’s body, his condition will then reflect his eternal position to which he was called in Christ while on this earth in his yet unredeemed body.

Salvation in Christ (key phrase being “in Christ”) is a completed gift. No further assembly needs be done by the recipient. It’s Christ Himself who did the work, once for all. This is what salvation faith is all about.

 

[bona_fides_1]

You speak of salvation as only a potential based on YOUR performance and not Christ’s. The Apostolic teaching is that one is saved “BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH,” not by their “keeping themselves in grace.” “Grace”…
“Saved” by definition is a one time event and by definition cannot be lost. Else the word is truly meaningless, insignificant, and having no assigned function in the English language.

This is your personal definition. It is not what the apostles taught. Nor is it the teaching of the apostolic Catholic Church. What you are teaching are your own personal ideas. A person can not self-judge himself as “saved”. No one is saved by mere belief and self declaration. The whole idea of “saved” as a self professed guaranteed current and eternal status is a new Protestant concept that has no biblical nor historical validity.

No one is saved until God judges them saved. To self-judge oneself as “saved” is perhaps one of the most immodest and arrogant things a person could do since it presumes upon God’s mercy and makes one’s own human judgement about what one truly believes as a substitute for God’s sovereign judgement. Only God can probe the depths of the human heart. The human intellect and judgement is full of self deception. The supernatural works that God gives a soul are what prove out what one truly believes. Our works are not done until the last breath is over and we can not always know what these works are. I would even dare say that anyone who professes themselves as unconditionally “saved” is exhibiting a marker for its exact opposite since it is sinful to try to speak and presume for God. None of the apostles ran about the countryside proclaiming themselves “saved”. We never hear this in all of Christendom until after the Protestant revolution in the 17th century - a modern phenomena. Can you show a single NT verse where any apostles declared himself “saved”? No you can’t.

It’s clear from scripture that salvation is a life long process that is overwhelming most often spoken of as a future event not just a current event.

*"Matthew 10:22 You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.

Matthew 24:13 But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

Mark 13:13 You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

John 10:9 I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

Avts 2:47 And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.

Acts 16:31 They said, " Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

1 Cor 1:18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are** being saved **it is the power of God.

2 Cor 2;15 For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are **being saved **and among those who are perishing;

Acts 21:31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, “Unless these men remain in the ship, you yourselves cannot be saved.”

If one must be “saved” multiple times then (1) he was never “saved” in the first place,

This is because there is no one living who can judge for themselves that they are saved since salvation is not a done event until one finishes the race of life in God’s good grace. There is no concept of irresistible grace - that is not how God operates. God’s grace is always given in cooperation with one’s will and can be cast off - just like Judas did.

But you are right that such a soul “was never saved in the first place” because there is no concept of a single event salvation.

In 1 Cor 1:18 “*For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are **being saved ***it is the power of God,” both “perishing” and “saved” are in the present tense. But they are meant in a frequentative sense, not durative.

Paul did not mean any such thing. The text is clear. “Being saved” is not a done event. Paul is speaking to those who are on the path to salvation. His oration is hinged on the assumption that these souls will stay to that path. He is exhorting them to persevere in that faith. He is not telling them that since they are now saved they can stop “walking the walk” and depart from that path. In fact Christ tells us we must each carry our own cross. We must become Christlike and carry our cross all the way up Calvary to complete our part.

BF

 

[bona_fides_1]

Salvation in Christ (key phrase being “in Christ”) is a completed gift. No further assembly needs be done by the recipient. It’s Christ Himself who did the work, once for all. This is what salvation faith is all about.

You don’t seem to “get it” that one must remain in Christ all the way through life. God never removes our facility for freewill just like God never forces us to love Him by overwhelming us with His majesty. That would be making a mockery of love and render us all as mere created robots to grace with no cooperative role to play other than resign to whatever fate God created us to. But God creates no one to be damned and incorporates our freewill and our personal choices into His Divine Providence.

Here are examples of those who may profess belief in Christ but do not conform to Christ. One does not fully enter into Christ unless one does Christ’s will and obeys Christ. This proves that mere belief is not enough but rather cooperating with Christ’s Grace and staying “In Christ’s” good graces. Further one must remain in Christ and BEAR FRUIT.
Matthew 7:23And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.

Matthew 15:8-9 THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.9 ‘BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.’"

– Mere belief is NOT enough - one must act on that belief or be obliged to lose his salvation when life’s tragedies come to test that belief.

Luke 6:46-49 "Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
47"Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them, I will show you whom he is like: 48he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built. 49"But the one who has heard and has not acted accordingly, is like a man who built a house on the ground without any foundation; and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great

John 6;56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

John 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."

John 15:2** Every branch in Me** that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

John 15:4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
BF

 

[Philthy]

A friend of mine died in what many of you would call mortal sin. (Missed Mass and neither confessed to a priest nor was Anointed prior to death.) At the Catholic funeral the celebrant blessed the body with holy water. Commended the person’s soul to God and said the person had already entered heaven. Amen.

I find that hard to believe as we are not to judge anyone’s salvation. Priests are not at liberty to say any such thing - we entrust the souls of the departed to God’s mercy. In fact, if the priest believed the person was already in Heaven, why would they have a Mass for him? Sorry, but it doesnt add up…

 

[Philthy]

Hi MD-
Nice to see you again…

John 3:14-18 “*As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. **He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, ***because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

This is a confusing statement. Many believers convert from unbelief, and Jesus says that during their unbelief they have been “judged already” yet somehow when they become believers they are not judged. But that would seem to be impossible since they have already been judged during their period of unbelief. Do you think Christ is speaking of two separate judgments? In addition, isnt each man’s works “judged” at the end of his life?

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

Unfortunately for your implicit case, there is much more to the NT than this verse. Many verses would contradict the simpler interpretations of this passage so radically that each term (ie, “hears”, “believes”) would be endlessly debated as to what they mean in the context of the passage.

 

[Philthy]

But the foolishness of an unbelieving heart is great indeed. Because when the Law has done its office and terrified his conscience, the foolish unbeliever not only refuses to lay hold of the doctrine of grace, but he seeks for himself more laws to satisfy and quiet his conscience. He says, “I’ll do this and I’ll do that.” But the truth is, unless you send Moses and his “letters engraved on stones” away, and in your conviction of being a sinner worthy of God’s indignation and wrath, lay hold completely of Christ, who died, once for all, for your sins, there is no salvation for you. As Paul lays it out ever so succinctly to the Galatians who were deceived and were seeking the principle of law rather than GRACE:Gal 3:23-24 "But before faith came, we (Jews) were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor {to lead us} to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith."

I find it interesting that after introducing the verses regarding salvation that speak of not coming under judgment (John 5:24), that you should in short order quote the letter to the Galatians. This letter was specifically written to “believers” who were stumbling in their walk and in so doing were, in Paul’s estimation, placing their salvation into jeopardy. No doubt you disagree, and you will likely first claim that the Galatians Paul is writing to were not actually believers. Can that position really be maintained? I will simply present what Paul says in his letter regarding their salvific status:
3:2Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
Conclusion: Pauls rhetorical way of saying that they had received the Spirit by hearing with faith: aka they were "saved(received the Spirit) believers (heard with faith)
3:27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Conclusion: they had “put on Christ” - they had received Him into themselves, they were joined to him, united with him. They are members of the body of Christ.
So they were saved believers, justified by faith and, therefore (according to your “will not be judged” verses) exempt from judgement. And yet, as you point out, they were “deceived and were seeking the principle of law rather than GRACE:” And what does Paul say to these folks??
5:1For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
Conclusions: they had been “set free” from sin by grace through faith, and had abandoned attempts to be justified by the law (do not submit AGAIN) and were being misled into resubmitting to the law.
5:2-5Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; **you have fallen away from grace. **
Conclusions:
Paul is still speaking to those who were “set free” by Christ and he says that if they accept circumcision, then Christ will be no advantage to them (ie, they will not be saved since salvation is impossible apart from Christ).
They were members of Christ’s body, otherwise they could not be “severed from Christ”. To be severed from Christ means you had to have been joined to Christ at some point. This point is further confirmed in Pauls statement that they had “fallen away from grace” Fallen in biblical contexts always refers to a movement from a state of grace to one apart from grace. Adam and Eve “fell”, for example, when they sinned.

So, what are we left with? We are left with the reality that saved believers can “fall from grace”, be severed from Christ and lose all the benefit of Christ. Some of those benefits that can be lost are: not coming “under condemnation”, not being judged, and passing from death to life. This reality is directly at odds with several of your theological positions presented on this thread.
Blessings!

 

[CMatt25]

I find that hard to believe as we are not to judge anyone’s salvation. Priests are not at liberty to say any such thing - we entrust the souls of the departed to God’s mercy. In fact, if the priest believed the person was already in Heaven, why would they have a Mass for him? Sorry, but it doesnt add up…

I was there. But if we’re not to judge anyone’s salvation then why do Catholics say if someone knows the Church and either does not enter or later does not remain within it, then they can not be saved? That’s what doesn’t add up. Condemning one to eternal damnation if we’re not to judge another’s salvation.

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

1. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved. :tsktsk:

 

[CMatt25]

Too late to edit my last post but what I mean is Catholics either judge another’s salvation by saying someone can not be saved unless they enter or repent via the Sacraments. Which sure sounds like judging salvation to me. Or they don’t. One or the other. It can’t be both ways.

 

[bona_fides_1]

I was there. But if we’re not to judge anyone’s salvation then why do Catholics say if someone knows the Church and either does not enter or later does not remain within it, then they can not be saved? That’s what doesn’t add up. Condemning one to eternal damnation if we’re not to judge another’s salvation.

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

1. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved. :tsktsk:

This is not judging a particular soul. This is two things. Firstly it is of the pattern of what happens to any person who knowingly commits grave sin and does not repent and seek forgivness. That soul will undoubtedly go to hell unless it repents. Secondly it is the application of grave sin to a specific case of grave matter. That case is knowingly refusing to enter into the Catholic Church and maintain oneself in communion against one’s informed moral conscience that one need be a member of the Catholic Church to attain salvation. A Catholic who has been raised in the faith from childhood and catechized and believed this teaching his whole life then just one day decided “I don’t want to be a practising Catholic anymore since I have other things I’d rather do” is an example of a person who might fall into this grave sin. It is a deliberate choice to sin against conscience in a matter that is grave. Again, the Church does not not judge a particular soul but does give the explicit general conditions that must exist in order to place oneself into a damnable offense.

Any grave/mortal sin has 3 conditions necessary to be in this category:
1: Its subject must be a grave (or serious) matter.
2: It must be committed with full knowledge, both of the sin and of the gravity of the offence (no one is considered ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are inborn as part of human knowledge, but these principles can be misunderstood in a particular context.
3: It must be committed with deliberate and complete consent, enough for it to have been a personal decision to commit the sin

The church is just saying two things: 1) that to not be a member of the Catholic Catholic Church is grave matter; and 2) those who know this is grave matter and do it anyway are damning themselves by their own fault. There is no getting around the fact that there is no mercy available for a person who elects to die unrepentant and not call on God’s mercy since he has had an entire lifetime to repent. This is one form of what is the unforgivable sin - blaspheming against the Holy Spirit.

BF

 

[CMatt25]

This is not judging a particular soul. This is two things. Firstly it is of the pattern of what happens to any person who knowingly commits grave sin and does not repent and seek forgivness. That soul will undoubtedly go to hell unless it repents. Secondly it is the application of grave sin to a specific case of grave matter. That case is knowingly refusing to enter into the Catholic Church and maintain oneself in communion against one’s informed moral conscience that one need be a member of the Catholic Church to attain salvation. A Catholic who has been raised in the faith from childhood and catechized and believed this teaching his whole life then just one day decided “I don’t want to be a practising Catholic anymore since I have other things I’d rather do” is an example of a person who might fall into this grave sin. It is a deliberate choice to sin against conscience. Again, the Church does not not judge a particular soul but does give the explicit general conditions that must exist in order to place oneself into a damnable offense.

Any grave/mortal sin has 3 conditions necessary to be in this category:
1: Its subject must be a grave (or serious) matter.
2: It must be committed with full knowledge, both of the sin and of the gravity of the offence (no one is considered ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are inborn as part of human knowledge, but these principles can be misunderstood in a particular context.
3: It must be committed with deliberate and complete consent, enough for it to have been a personal decision to commit the sin

The church is just saying that to not be a member of the Catholic Catholic Church is grave matter. And those who know this is grave matter and do it anyway are damning themselves by their own fault. There is no getting around the fact that there is no mercy available for a person who elects to die unrepentant and not call on God’s mercy since he has had an entire lifetime to repent. This is one form of what is the unforgivable sin - blaspheming against the Holy Spirit.

BF

So it’s judging not a particular but a bunch of particular souls in unison? Sorry I don’t follow your reasoning. Or what if the practicing Catholic you exampled says "I don’t want to be a practicing Catholic anymore not because I have other things I’d rather do but because my conscience tells I was wrong all those preceding yrs? Seems if Catholics don’t judge then the teaching shouldn’t say “can’t be saved” and instead should say “might not be”.

 

[bona_fides_1]

So it’s judging not a particular but a bunch of particular souls in unison? Sorry I don’t follow your reasoning. Or what if the practicing Catholic you exampled says "I don’t want to be a practicing Catholic anymore not because I have other things I’d rather do but because my conscience tells I was wrong all those preceding yrs? Seems if Catholics don’t judge then the teaching shouldn’t say “can’t be saved” and instead should say “might not be”.

I really don’t know how to make it any clearer. If you can not see the difference between stateing the objective truth and Divine Judgement of what a soul really knew in its own heart of hearts than I really can’t help you further. The church’s job is to save souls not to damn souls. Only God can judge. But the Church’s job is to teach what will get a soul damned. She has done so. If somone wants to challenge her teaching and sin anyway to try to prove her wrong then that soul is placing itself in the neighborhood of eternal damnation and should not be surprised if God condemned it to hell for its own fault.

Again - only God can know what is in the heart of a particular soul but only a fool would go try to game salvation and ignore the Catholic Church and its own conscience. Then again, a a soul who is a fool by reason of invincible ignorance (mental illness) may also have an excuse in insanity - God decides which is the case. God also decides when a soul SHOULD have known moral truth but eleced by sloth to maliciously remain ignorant. That can be grave matter also.

BF

 

[CMatt25]

I really don’t know how to make it any clearer. If you can not see the difference between stateing the objective truth and Divine Judgement of what a soul really knew in its own heart of hearts than I really can’t help you further. The church’s job is to save souls not to damn souls. Only God can judge. But the Church’s job is to teach what will get a soul damned. She has done so. If somone wants to challenge her teaching and sin anyway to try to prove her wrong then that soul is placing itself in the neighborhood of eternal damnation and should not be surprised if God condemned it to hell for its own fault.

Again - only God can know what is in the heart of a particular soul but only a fool would go try to game salvation and ignore the Catholic Church and its own conscience. Then again, a a soul who is a fool by reason of invincible ignorance (mental illness) may also have an excuse in insanity - God decides which is the case. God also decides when a soul SHOULD have known moral truth but eleced by sloth to maliciously remain ignorant. That can be grave matter also.

BF

BF, ok thanks you tried. I understand you are saying God judges but the Church tells us what we must do or else we will not be saved. But maybe I’m the only person who sees 2 polar opposites here:

A) This is not judging a particular soul but…

B) If the soul does not do x, y, and z then they can not be saved.

Seems it should read, “might not be saved”, “quite possibly won’t be” instead of “can not” if the Church is truly not judging. Peace.

 

[bona_fides_1]

BF, ok thanks you tried. Maybe I’m the only person who sees 2 polar opposites here:

A) This is not judging a particular soul but…

B) If the soul does not do x, y, and z then they can not be saved.

The objective truth is taught by the Church - teaching is not the same as judging. But the conditions Y & Z can only be known perfectly and judged perfectly by God. Ergo, the Church can not judge nor is it authorized to judge in any particular specific instance. It simply says that if God after applying all mitigating factors (including his own prerogative for His inscrutable Mercy) sees condition x, y & z materially present in a soul then He will find the soul guilty and condemn it to hell. The only real thing that the Church is teaching absolutely here that is independent of God’s judgement is that condition x is grave matter (e.g. not being Catholic).

There are some things that are immutable for God - namely His divine Word. What God says He will do He will do since He is unchanging.

Why is this concept so hard for you to grasp when the legislature of the state or federal government does exactly the same thing? The legislature defines law and the judge accesses the finding of guilt based on the law. It’s the same concept. The legislature tells us what conditions must exist for the death penalty to be applied without judging a particular soul. But The Judge judges a particular person to find it guilty of the law that was handed down by the legislature. It’s a very similar concept. The only difference is The Church has discerned infallibly what the conditions are that God defined as the conditions that He will send somone to hell to warn others how to avoid grave sin. But God judges when those conditions exist in the objective sense. Does that help?

BF

 

[CMatt25]

The objective truth is taught by the Church - teaching is not the same as judging. But the conditions Y & Z can only be known perfectly and judged perfectly by God. Ergo, the Church can not judge nor is it authorized to judge in any particular specific instance. It simply says that if God after applying all mitigating factors (including his own prerogative for His inscrutable Mercy) sees condition x, y & z materially present in a soul then He will find the soul guilty and condemn it to hell. The only real thing that the Church is teaching absolutely here that is independent of God’s judgement is that condition x is grave matter (e.g. not being Catholic).

There are some things that are immutable for God - namely His divine Word. What God says He will do He will do since He is unchanging.

Why is this concept so hard for you to grasp when the legislature of the state or federal government does exactly the same thing? The legislature defines law and the judge accesses the finding of guilt based on the law. It’s the same concept. The legislature tells us what conditions must exist for the death penalty to be applied without judging a particular soul. But The Judge judges a particular person to find it guilty of the law that was handed down by the legislature. It’s a very similar concept. The only difference is The Church has discerned infallibly what the conditions are that God defined as the conditions that He will send somone to hell to warn others how to avoid grave sin. But God judges when those conditions exist in the objective sense. Does that help?

BF

Yes it helps other than when a secular judge condemns the state to kill someone, he or she isn’t judging that the convict is going to hell for all eternity. That is left to God.

 

[bona_fides_1]

Yes it helps other than when a secular judge condemns the state to kill someone, he or she isn’t judging that the convict is going to hell for all eternity. That is left to God.

Hello - nor is the Catholic Church judging where a soul goes - GOD does that. The church just teaches that a soul is libel to hell if God in his inscrutable justice and mercy finds that the conditions the Church communicated objectively exist. I sense that you have a mental block formed by some deep engrained emotional bias. Irrespective of what Catholics tell you you are still equating Church with God.You have a judgmental blind-spot and are somehow using preconceived notions about the Catholic Church to short-circuit your objectivity in this area (likely a mindset formed around someone’s inquisitional polemical teaching?). You need to see the Church NOT as a judge at all but as a teacher. The Church is on YOUR SIDE and wants to give you every insight it has that can benefit you in your attaining eternal beatitude. She is not teaching to frighten or to condemn - she is teaching to give a sense of urgency and to convey the normative and safest way to salvation. The Church sees an inseparable mystical relationship and connection between Christ and his Holy People - The Body of Christ - or His Church. She likens the relationship to that prefigured by Noah and His Arc. The church has many such metaphors and we firmly believe that one must be within the protection of the flock/arc/family/body in order to be safely delivered to the Promised Land.

If I can convey anything here I want to convey that the Church is benevolent in this matter and is teaching not to condemn or to judge but only to enlighten so that everyone has the opportunity to attain their higest and best reward in heaven at the least possible risk of being lost. There are no doubt many thousands of souls unknown to Catholics who God considers Catholics by right of “baptism by desire” but living in cultures that repress their ability to know the truth and persecute our missionaries so they can not receive the truth. Likewise there are no doubt many thousands of souls who call themselves Catholic but are not practising their faith and are in grave sin and are subject to being lost. Only God is in a position to know which souls have responded to his call and which He judges are worthy for eternal beatitude.

BF

 

[moondweller]

There are some things that are immutable for God - namely His divine Word. What God says He will do He will do since He is unchanging.

Yet YOU refuse to believe what Christ the living Word, and the theopneustos (God-breathed) written Word have said:John 3:14-18 “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.“Now, BF, if you really believe God’s Word is immutable then why are YOU trying to change it? It would be far more honest of you to say that you just don’t believe it. Nevertheless, your unbelief does not change the two witnesses: God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Now if you need a third here’s what John the Apostle taught:1 John 5:9 “If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. And the testimony is this, that God has given us (who have believed His Word) *eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.”*And John testifies via the Holy Spirit:These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.”

The whole idea of “saved” as a self professed guaranteed current and eternal status is a new Protestant concept that has no biblical nor historical validity.

God’s immutable Word vehemently disagrees with you. It has nothing to with with some Protestant concept. We who have believed have the testimony of God within ourselves. And the testimony of God is greater than men.

No one is saved until God judges them saved.

God doesn’t “judge” anyone saved. He, in fact, is the one who saves them from judgment by grace alone through faith in Christ alone. Salvation isn’t a judgment of God, it’s “a gift of God, not as a result of works” (Eph. 2:8-9)

To self-judge oneself as “saved” is perhaps one of the most immodest and arrogant things a person could do since it presumes upon God’s mercy and makes one’s own human judgement about what one truly believes as a substitute for God’s sovereign judgement. Only God can probe the depths of the human heart.

God doesn’t probe the heart to condemn (judge) it, but, through faith in Christ, CLEANS it:Acts 15:8-9 "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us (Jews) and them (Gentiles), cleansing their hearts by faith."What God requires for salvation is that you BELIEVE His Word - not in unbelief deny it.

 

[CMatt25]

Hello - nor is the Catholic Church judging where a soul goes - GOD does that. The church just teaches that a soul is libel to hell if God in his inscrutable justice and mercy finds that the conditions the Church communicated objectively exist. I sense that you have a mental block formed by some deep engrained emotional bias. Irrespective of what Catholics tell you you are still equating Church with God.You have a judgmental blind-spot and are somehow using preconceived notions about the Catholic Church to short-circuit your objectivity in this area (likely a mindset formed around someone’s inquisitional polemical teaching?). You need to see the Church NOT as a judge at all but as a teacher. The Church is on YOUR SIDE and wants to give you every insight it has that can benefit you in your attaining eternal beatitude. She is not teaching to frighten or to condemn - she is teaching to give a sense of urgency and to convey the normative and safest way to salvation. The Church sees an inseparable mystical relationship and connection between Christ and his Holy People - The Body of Christ - or His Church. She likens the relationship to that prefigured by Noah and His Arc. The church has many such metaphors and we firmly believe that one must be within the protection of the flock/arc/family/body in order to be safely delivered to the Promised Land.

If I can convey anything here I want to convey that the Church is benevolent in this matter and is teaching not to condemn or to judge but only to enlighten so that everyone has the opportunity to attain their higest and best reward in heaven at the least possible risk of being lost. There are no doubt many thousands of souls unknown to Catholics who God considers Catholics by right of “baptism by desire” but living in cultures that repress their ability to know the truth and persecute our missionaries so they can not receive the truth. Likewise there are no doubt many thousands of souls who call themselves Catholic but are not practising their faith and are in grave sin and are subject to being lost. Only God is in a position to know which souls have responded to his call and which He judges are worthy for eternal beatitude.

BF

Ok so you believe too the Lumen Gentium should read something like “might not be” instead of so matter of factly “can not”?

 

[Philthy]

Too late to edit my last post but what I mean is Catholics either judge another’s salvation by saying someone can not be saved unless they enter or repent via the Sacraments. Which sure sounds like judging salvation to me. Or they don’t. One or the other. It can’t be both ways.

It seems BF has patiently and clearly showed you where you are mistaken regarding judging others and the apparent contradictions you saw.
In short, the Church proclaims the criteria for attaining salvation but does not judge whether *an individual *has failed to meet those criteria sufficiently to be damned.
Your initial inability to recognize the subtle difference during this discussion leads me to believethat you may not have understood exactly what the priest meant when he said whatever he said at the funeral you spoke of. The possibility that the priest mispoke remains, however. The only time the Church (ie not an individual priest) makes a judgment regarding the eternal destiny of a soul is in proclaiming someone a Saint, and it doesnt happen at their funeral.

 

[bona_fides_1]

Ok so you believe too the Lumen Gentium should read something like “might not be” instead of so matter of factly “can not”?

Lumen Gentieum is a profoundly wise and enlightening Dogmatic Constitution on the Church. It is one of the principal documents of the Second Vatican Council. What particular area of Lumen Gentium are you referring to? Here are the major areas of this document:
*
1.The Mystery of the Church (1-8)
2.The People of God (9-17)
3.On the Hierarchical Structure of the Church and In Particular on the Episcopate (18-29)
4.The Laity (30-38)
5.The Universal Call to Holiness in the Church (39-42)
6.Religious (43-47)
7.The Eschatological Nature of the Pilgrim Church and Its Union with the Church in Heaven (48-51)
8.The Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God in the Mystery of Christ and the Church (52-69)

1.Introduction (52-54)
2.The Role of the Blessed Mother in the Economy of Salvation (55-59)
3.On the Blessed Virgin and the Church (60-65)
4.The Cult of the Blessed Virgin in the Church (66-67)
5.Mary the Sign of Created Hope and Solace to the Wandering People of God (68-69)
*​

The Church is the kingdom of Christ.

Thus, the Church has been seen as “a people made one with the unity of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.”

While it slowly grows, the Church strains toward the completed Kingdom and, with all its strength, hopes and desires to be united in glory with its King.

Outside of the church one can simply “NOT be in Christ”. It is impossible owing to the inseparable nature of Christ to His Church - even as the Head is to His body and the Groom to His bride. One can not beleive in Christ and love Christ without also loving His People, His Bride, His Church any more so that one can love Christ who hates himself.

By communicating His Spirit, Christ made His brothers, called together from all nations, mystically the components of His own Body. There is only One Spirit and thus there is only One Body and One Church.

For this reason Baptism paired with Eucharist is profoundly important and necessary - it is not only a sign of unity it is an actual ongoing spiritual unity with Christ and His Body. In this sacred rite (Baptism) a oneness with Christ’s death and resurrection is both symbolized and brought about: “For we were buried with Him by means of Baptism into death”; and if “we have been united with Him in the likeness of His death, we shall be so in the likeness of His resurrection also”. Then too really partaking of the body of the Lord in the breaking of the Eucharistic bread, we are taken up into communion with Him and with one another. “Because the bread is one, we though many, are one body, all of us who partake of the one bread”. In this way all of us are made members of His Body, “but severally members one of another”.

While Christ, holy, innocent and undefiled knew nothing of sin, but came to expiate only the sins of the people,(Heb. 2:17) the Church, embracing in its bosom sinners, at the same time holy and always in need of being purified, always follows the way of penance and renewal.

**At all times and in every race God has given welcome to whosoever fears Him and does what is right. God, however, does not make men holy and save them merely as individuals, without bond or link between one another. Rather has it pleased Him to bring men together as one people, a people which acknowledges Him in truth and serves Him in holiness. **

This is the one Church of Christ which in the Creed is professed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic, which our Saviour, after His Resurrection, commissioned Peter to shepherd, and him and the other apostles to extend and direct with authority, which He erected for all ages as “the pillar and mainstay of the truth”. This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him, although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward catholic unity.

Bottom line - no individual can dictate to God his own personal terms for salvation nor for “belief” nor for “Faith”. God has prescribed that ONLY His People are the ones who may partake in His salvation through forgivness of sins and communication of grace. NO ONE can genuinely proclaim himself “a believer” and “faithful” and “in Christ” to God or man while refusing to be in communion with God’s Holy People - that is, His Church.

BF

 

[bona_fides_1]

Yet YOU refuse to believe what Christ the living Word, and the theopneustos (God-breathed) written Word have said:John 3:14-18 “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."Now, BF, if you really believe God’s Word is immutable then why are YOU trying to change it? It would be far more honest of you to say that you just don’t believe it. Nevertheless, your unbelief does not change the two witnesses: God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Now if you need a third here’s what John the Apostle taught:1 John 5:9 "If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. And the testimony is this, that God has given us (who have believed His Word) eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life."And John testifies via the Holy Spirit:These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."God’s immutable Word vehemently disagrees with you. It has nothing to with with some Protestant concept. We who have believed have the testimony of God within ourselves. And the testimony of God is greater than men.God doesn’t “judge” anyone saved. He, in fact, is the one who saves them from judgment by grace alone through faith in Christ alone. Salvation isn’t a judgment of God, it’s “a gift of God, not as a result of works” (Eph. 2:8-9)God doesn’t probe the heart to condemn (judge) it, but, through faith in Christ, CLEANS it:Acts 15:8-9 "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us (Jews) and them (Gentiles), cleansing their hearts by faith."What God requires for salvation is that you BELIEVE His Word - not in unbelief deny it.

MD, the problem you are running into is versing scripture and not understanding the meaning of the word “believe”. One simply can not take individual verses in isolation to all of the others. The scriptures must be read holistically as a complete work from cover to cover. Further, “belief” is not possible outside of the Church. John’s gospel was written to the COMMUNITY of believers - those Holy People who were living within the Holy People of God as “believers”. While they remained a part of that community they continued to be “believers”. But as we know not everyone stayed within the community of believers and fell out or were excommunicated for following heretics or their own beliefs or sinful ways. Belief is not a static one time event but rather an ongoing life long and living testimony of belief WITHIN The Church. Rethink all of what you said since your context is completely alien. There is no way to “believe” in Christ seperate from His People. Salvation and forgiveness of sins is ONLY available to the community of believers who stay within that community since Christ promised us that He would never leave His people orphaned and would send the Holy Spirit to HIS CHURCH to be with them for all time.

Why is that so hard to understand? There is no lone ranger salvation of individual personal belief.

For faith, unless hope and charity are added thereto, neither unites one perfectly with Christ nor makes one a living member of his body" (Trent, VI, ch. 7).

Once one adds faith, hope and charity a supernatural principal of unity wells up to form the substrate to which the seed of faith may grow and flourish. It is impossible to believe outside of this triad of virtues which themselves require the same principal of unity found as exists in The Trinity. You have 1/3 of what you need my friend but 33% is not a passing grade and is insufficient to get you to the Promised Land…

BF