How to get to heaven

[moondweller]

Why is that so hard to understand? There is no lone ranger salvation of individual personal belief.

“Lone ranger salvation?” God saves individuals by GRACE through personal faith in Jesus Christ - not institutions. People believe, not institutions. Corporately, those individuals who are now “saved by grace through faith” make up “the church” Christ is presently building through the ministry of the Holy Spirit which began with His advent at Pentecost.

For faith, unless hope and charity are added thereto, neither unites one perfectly with Christ nor makes one a living member of his body" (Trent, VI, ch. 7).

This of course is contrary to the Word of God. Upon faith in Christ it’s the Holy Spirit Himself who baptizes the believer into the body of Christ, which is the church:1 Cor 12:12-14 "For even as the body is one and {yet} has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many."IOW, the church, the body of Christ, is made up of many saved individuals. It has grown since Pentecost one individual at a time - through faith.

Once one adds faith, hope and charity a supernatural principal of unity wells up to form the substrate to which the seed of faith may grow and flourish. It is impossible to believe outside of this triad of virtues which themselves require the same principal of unity found as exists in The Trinity. You have 1/3 of what you need my friend but 33% is not a passing grade and is insufficient to get you to the Promised Land…

Yes, there is a sense of religious unity among many people on this earth. But that’s not what the Scriptures are talking about. Many confuse religious conformity with unity in Christ. The church, the body of Christ, transcends earthly religious institutions. It’s a spiritual congregation made of all the saved (dead and alive) since Pentecost - known personally and individually by the Lord Himself (2 Tim. 2:19).

You can’t work your way into heaven, BF. Read the words of Christ:John 10:9 "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."It’s the saved who have faith and live by it (Rom. 1 16-17), having been “born again” to a “living hope” (1 Pet. 1:3, not a mere “hope so” situation), manifested by love (Gal. 5:6). Love is a manifestation of true faith, not a condition for salvation. God’s love (not ours) is the cause of man’s salvation (Jn. 3:16; 1 Jn. 4:10).

 

[Philthy]

It’s the saved who have faith and live by it (Rom. 1 16-17), having been “born again” to a “living hope” (1 Pet. 1:3, not a mere “hope so” situation), manifested by love (Gal. 5:6). ** Love is a manifestation** of true faith, not a condition for salvation. God’s love (not ours) is the cause of man’s salvation (Jn. 3:16; 1 Jn. 4:10).

Love is not a condition for salvation?? Perhaps that would be intelligible if true faith and love of God/neighbor were not inextricably intertwined, but since they are your statement is, as Paul would say, a clanging cymbal. Perhaps you are merely talking about being “born again” rather than salvation when you say love is not a condition. That much I could agree with, but when it comes to having a “living hope”, as you say, and persevering in faith to actually die and inherit the kingdom of God, love indeed will be a condition, in fact, the primary condition. My guess is that your OSAS inclinations cloud your objectivity in hearing and uniting all that Scripture says regarding salvation. I attempted to address this in post 46 but you apparently overlooked it…:crying:

Good to see you again.

Blessings!

 

[bona_fides_1]

“Lone ranger salvation?” God saves individuals by GRACE through personal faith in Jesus Christ - not institutions.

If you are using the word “institution” to refer to “the Church” you are making a grave mistake. Christ’s Church is no mere “institution” as you wrongfully imagine it. It is mystically related to Christ and has a soul and a body in a unity of believers. Each member of the Church serves each other toward one objective end - its perfection and establishment of God’s Kingdom on earth.

At pentecost the Holy Spirit descended only upon those all together present in a community of prayer. While it descended on individuals it was only in the presence of the entire community of believers in witness. We have no reports of individuals outside of the communion of the upper room receiving the Holy Spirit as tongues of fire. This alone demonstrates the necessity of the Church. And the Church has always had an ecclesial structure and a member interrelationship. It is clear that the mystical Church, which has both real and mystical elements is itself a sacrament and a sign of God’s Kingdom.

The principal of unity of faith necessitates a single orthodox teaching authority with an earthly structure. This is the same apostolic Catholic Church that has existed continuously for 2,000 years.

People believe, not institutions. Corporately, those individuals who are now “saved by grace through faith” make up “the church” Christ is presently building through the ministry of the Holy Spirit which began with His advent at Pentecost.

).

I am afraid that you have an invalid perspective on the Church. The Church is the instrument by which Christ distributes grace. There is a constant principal of unity expressed in the OT & NT to pray for one another, love one another etc. and to be obedient to those that Christ appointed as His representatives.

Also note that faith must be a living faith not just a mere professed faith. A living faith means a unity of faith in a community of worshippers who all have the supernatural principals of charity and hope.

God has never saved individuals who were not in some covenantal relationship as “His People”. God has always formed a community as He builds up God’s Kingdom. . Moses was not sent to deliver individuals but rather to form a nation of believers. There is not one single instance in the bible of God declaring salvation to an individual person outside of His Holy People. In fact the pattern we see is that God excludes those who do not conform to His requirements.

"
You can’t work your way into heaven, BF. Read the words of Christ:John 10:9 "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."It’s the saved who have faith and live by it (Rom. 1 16-17), having been “born again” to a “living hope” (1 Pet. 1:3, not a mere “hope so” situation), manifested by love (Gal. 5:6). Love is a manifestation of true faith, not a condition for salvation. God’s love (not ours) is the cause of man’s salvation (Jn. 3:16; 1 Jn. 4:10).

I never said that a person can work their way into heaven and do not believe that one can. So please stop saying or implying that I belive this. That said, a living faith can not help but take joy in performing supernatural works for God and no soul will enter heaven unless it has supernatural works to show that it has a living faith. Charity necessitates an active love of both God and Neighbor and will do more than make lip service attestations of faith. True faith can not invite schisms or teach that there is a principal of unity in anarchy and independent clusters of believers. True & authentic faith can only exist within the corpus of one universal identical and same-faith community of believers. This is the very essence of Catholicism. Anything outside of the true unity of believers is simply not true belief and has no guarantee at all of salvation and are not entitled to it. Also faith is dead without supernatural works of charity and is not a kind of faith that will benefit anyone. Such a faith is a false faith - a faith formed on illicit teachings that we hear from outside of The Church by those who delude themselves with their own private council and with a legion of personal opinions that deviate from true apostolic teaching.

BF

 

[bona_fides_1]

moondweller:

It’s the saved who have faith and live by it (Rom. 1 16-17), having been “born again” to a “living hope” (1 Pet. 1:3, not a mere “hope so” situation), manifested by love (Gal. 5:6). Love is a manifestation of true faith, not a condition for salvation. God’s love (not ours) is the cause of man’s salvation (Jn. 3:16; 1 Jn. 4:10).

Love is not a condition for salvation?? Perhaps that would be intelligible if true faith and love of God/neighbor were not inextricably intertwined, but since they are your statement is, as Paul would say, a clanging cymbal. Perhaps you are merely talking about being “born again” rather than salvation when you say love is not a condition. That much I could agree with, but when it comes to having a “living hope”, as you say, and persevering in faith to actually die and inherit the kingdom of God, love indeed will be a condition, in fact, the primary condition. My guess is that your OSAS inclinations cloud your objectivity in hearing and uniting all that Scripture says regarding salvation. I attempted to address this in post 46 but you apparently overlooked it…:crying:

Good to see you again.

Blessings!

I think MD is splitting semantic hairs here. Some of what he says is true but its of no pragmatic effect. The reformers tried to come up with simple “formulas for salvation” that all could easily believe but in so doing they opened a Pandora’s box of contradiction and an opportunity for every personal exegesis imaginable to create any flavor of Christianity one wanted to believe or teach-for-profit or retire on by writing books and speaking tours.

In the following comments I draw heavily from a resource here at CAF: Justification Sola Fide - Catholic after All? (By Christopher J. Malloy)

“Sola Fide” (Faith alone) suffices if one defines and teaches it as a supernatural faith that is always paired with charity. The problem is this is way more sophisticated than the average plow-boy that Luther and the Reformers were trying to lure out of the Catholic Church could assimilate; and also intellectually way over most of the reformers heads as well. The Catholic Church in its tireless efforts toward true Ecumenical outreach (e.g. convincing and converting others back to Catholicism) discovered this way to express faith in a way acceptable to Catholics. If Protestants accept by “true faith,” as a living faith then we can find closure here since “living faith” by dogmatic definition includes charity, for divine faith without hope and charity does not avail (1 Cor 13:2, 1 Jn 3:14).

This also overcomes the Protestant aversion for “works” since charity is not first a “work.” It is first of all a divine gift of love that comes down from the Father (Jas 1:17) through the Holy Spirit (Rom 5:5). It is by this gift of divine love that faith can realize itself in good works (Gal 5:6). Pope Benedict taught this very thing: Charity is the soul or form of faith (Audience, Nov. 19) and seen this way are always paired when its a “living faith.” This won’t make the “easy-believers” happy though since they want an instant salvation (viz OSAS) with a point-in-time single event faith that let’s them feel secure that they have done their small part and can now go back to their regular lives and work, play and be assured of eternal salvation. Sorry to anyone if that comes across as too sarcastic but its what I see “out there” not only in Protestant communities but also in some Catholic communities.

Calling to mind charity as a gift, an infused virtue (not first a work), supports the truth of James’ analogy: **Works are to faith as the soul is to the body (Jas 2:26). **James’ Epistle would devolve into moralism and contradict Paul (see Rom 10:1-4; Phil 3:8ff; Audience Nov. 26), if it meant that merely human works are added to a dead faith to resuscitate a dead corpse. Not at all! It is **living faith **that realizes itself through good works, that produces good works. But I might not have opportunity to perform a work, to “realize” this living faith. Am I not saved, if I die in such circumstances? No, I am saved! Therefore, having formed faith is sufficient for salvation. Pope Benedict XVI also expressly states, **living faith itself will surely die if it is not expressed in concrete works, if I am capable of action and the opportunity presents itself. **

BF

 

[moondweller]

I think MD is splitting semantic hairs here. Some of what he says is true but its of no pragmatic effect. The reformers tried to come up with simple “formulas for salvation” that all could easily believe but in so doing they opened a Pandora’s box of contradiction and an opportunity for every personal exegesis imaginable to create any flavor of Christianity one wanted to believe or teach-for-profit or retire on by writing books and speaking tours.

In the following comments I draw heavily from a resource here at CAF: Justification Sola Fide - Catholic after All? (By Christopher J. Malloy)

“Sola Fide” (Faith alone) suffices if one defines and teaches it as a supernatural faith that is always paired with charity. The problem is this is way more sophisticated than the average plow-boy that Luther and the Reformers were trying to lure out of the Catholic Church could assimilate; and also intellectually way over most of the reformers heads as well. The Catholic Church in its tireless efforts toward true Ecumenical outreach (e.g. convincing and converting others back to Catholicism) discovered this way to express faith in a way acceptable to Catholics. If Protestants accept by “true faith,” as a living faith then we can find closure here since “living faith” by dogmatic definition includes charity, for divine faith without hope and charity does not avail (1 Cor 13:2, 1 Jn 3:14).

This also overcomes the Protestant aversion for “works” since charity is not first a “work.” It is first of all a divine gift of love that comes down from the Father (Jas 1:17) through the Holy Spirit (Rom 5:5). It is by this gift of divine love that faith can realize itself in good works (Gal 5:6). Pope Benedict taught this very thing: Charity is the soul or form of faith (Audience, Nov. 19) and seen this way are always paired when its a “living faith.” This won’t make the “easy-believers” happy though since they want an instant salvation (viz OSAS) with a point-in-time single event faith that let’s them feel secure that they have done their small part and can now go back to their regular lives and work, play and be assured of eternal salvation. Sorry to anyone if that comes across as too sarcastic but its what I see “out there” not only in Protestant communities but also in some Catholic communities.

Calling to mind charity as a gift, an infused virtue (not first a work), supports the truth of James’ analogy: **Works are to faith as the soul is to the body (Jas 2:26). **James’ Epistle would devolve into moralism and contradict Paul (see Rom 10:1-4; Phil 3:8ff; Audience Nov. 26), if it meant that merely human works are added to a dead faith to resuscitate a dead corpse. Not at all! It is **living faith **that realizes itself through good works, that produces good works. But I might not have opportunity to perform a work, to “realize” this living faith. Am I not saved, if I die in such circumstances? No, I am saved! Therefore, having formed faith is sufficient for salvation. Pope Benedict XVI also expressly states, **living faith itself will surely die if it is not expressed in concrete works, if I am capable of action and the opportunity presents itself. **

BF

Love (charity) is a manifestation of faith (Gal. 5:6), but God Himself saves the believer by grace (unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor), through faith: “the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast” (Eph. 3:8-9).

Salvation itself is the “gift of God,” according to the Scriptures. It’s true that faith is not idle. As Abraham it manifests itself in works. But it’s neither the works nor the love that *saved * or justified the man, but God Himself - by (His) grace, through (our) faith - for Christ’s sake and to His glory for ever and ever - according to the Scriptures.

 

[Lapell]

The Church teaches:
1037. God predestines no one to go to hell;[618] for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:

Thus if we die repentant of our sins, we will not go to hell, but will end up in heaven
eventually.

Unfortunately, there are many who are opposed to God and have contempt for God and His teachings. If they die with this contempt, they will end up in hell, of their own choice.

I think many of them just react from having seen bad examples of Catholics who didn’t seem to preach out of actual love for God and for their neighbours, even though they may look as though they rejected God and His teachings per se. Or from believing people 'preaching" this way out of a naive understanding of life.

 

[moondweller]

Love is not a condition for salvation?? Perhaps that would be intelligible if true faith and love of God/neighbor were not inextricably intertwined, but since they are your statement is, as Paul would say, a clanging cymbal. Perhaps you are merely talking about being “born again” rather than salvation when you say love is not a condition.Only the saved are “born again.” The “born again” are the saved.

but when it comes to having a “living hope”, as you say, and persevering in faith to actually die and inherit the kingdom of God, love indeed will be a condition, in fact, the primary condition.

 

[ryanoneil]

Ryan, you’re the one who quoted Mk. 10:17-21 in response to the subject matter of this thread. Why then did you quote that passage if you don’t believe the content of it applies to your own personal entrance into heaven?

I think when confronted with the reality of it, you know you can’t bear it. The FACT is, no man can. Not even the man whom Christ was confronting. Obedience to law (moral, civil or religious) was NEVER meant to be the Divine means for anyone’s salvation, entrance into heaven. The 10 Commandments, referred to as “letters engraved on stones,” are called a “ministry of death” (2 Cor. 3:7), and “the ministry of condemnation” (2 Cor. 3:9) because all they can do, or could ever do, is show a man that he is a sinner, guilty of death and worthy of God’s indignation and wrath.

So to what end, then, did those Commandments serve? To the end that we have an entrance into heaven by GRACE alone. The whole Law (which included those “letters engraved on stones,”) was a minister that prepared the way to GRACE. Moses ministered for 1400 years through the Law, but with the coming of Christ (to Whom it pointed) came the Words of grace and life.

But the foolishness of an unbelieving heart is great indeed. Because when the Law has done its office and terrified his conscience, the foolish unbeliever not only refuses to lay hold of the doctrine of grace, but he seeks for himself more laws to satisfy and quiet his conscience. He says, “I’ll do this and I’ll do that.” But the truth is, unless you send Moses and his “letters engraved on stones” away, and in your conviction of being a sinner worthy of God’s indignation and wrath, lay hold completely of Christ, who died, once for all, for your sins, there is no salvation for you. As Paul lays it out ever so succinctly to the Galatians who were deceived and were seeking the principle of law rather than GRACE:Gal 3:23-24 "But before faith came, we (Jews) were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor {to lead us} to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith."One use of the Law was to reveal sin and brand all men sinners. The other was to drive men to Christ when He came, to be “justified by faith” (in Him, His Person and work).

Grace replaced Law 2000 years ago. And Jesus said:“I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me” (Jn. 14:6).

There’s no place for the principle of law now that Christ has come, only GRACE through Him.Rom 5:21 "*…so that, as sin reigned in death, even so **grace would reign ***through righteousness to eternal life (how? through Law? NO!) “through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Please answer my question.

So we are right back where we left of on the other thread-paradigms of grace and law.

Bear one another’s burdens, and so you will fulfill the law of Christ. (Gal 6:2)

What pardigm does the this verse fit into?

 

[bona_fides_1]

Love (charity) is a manifestation of faith (Gal. 5:6), but God Himself saves the believer by grace (unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor), through faith: “the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast” (Eph. 3:8-9).
…

MD, I think you are too hung up on “formula salvation” and missing the bigger picture. Forgive me for so saying but what you say and how you say it has a very judicial-forensic tone to it - even Pharisaical. We don’t want to make the bible into do-it-yourself salvation cookbook since that is not what it is.

Also, you might go back and meditate about just “what” is a gift. There is no real concept in all of human social history of gifts being forced on another. Well I take that back some. In Homer’s Odyssey Odysseus’/Ulysses’ was presumed killed in the Trojan wars and opportunistic male suitors forced courting gifts on he presumed widow Penelope to compel a lavish social expectation (feasts and hospitality) and force her to choose a new husband. But these all get slaughtered to a man for being so brash when a vengeful Ulysses reveals that he is not dead and cleans house. The point is that gifts normally must be accepted and not forced on a person.

But the kinds of gifts God gives are really all about entering into a covenantal relationship similar to a wedding. The greatest gift God gives is of course Himself through Jesus. We all should do just as Mary did when she was offered such a great gift. Mary recognized the honor that was being bestowed and offered all she could in return. That is, she offered herself completely as a “Servant to The Lord” and graciously accepted God’s gift. God wants life commitments not formula expectations on Him. Also, one must first be offered the gift by hearing God’s call…

• (Luke 1:38) “I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May it be to me as you have said.”*

I’d also say that Love is not really the same thing as Charity as you have indicated. Charity is the MUTUAL and inseparable love of both God and human neighbor (Jesus was after all human). But plain vanilla “love” that is not directed istoo general. It could just as well be a self serving love (pride) that on the surface satisfies your salvation equation but spiritually misses the mark completely. Charity is actually a supernatural love that exceeds mere human estate - a gift from God. I don’t mean to be strawmanning you here or second guessing what you meant but I am just saying that the more specific generalization is “charity” as defined by the Catholic Church. There is also an element of “hope” that is wrapped up in that. Hope is humble and modest. It does not assume anything “must be so” simply because one “wishes it so”.

We agree that it is God Himself who saves the believer - as long as a believer is a person who stays a believer his entire life (and if falls away again repents and returns) and the term believer takes on “charity and hope in God’s promise”.

But I sense that you are very sensitive to “works” and that you have an aversion for personal merit - that there is nothing we can do to gain merit for ourselves. This is not true and violates Catholic teaching. When we accept God’s love we become instruments of grace. God gives us the means (grace and supernatural works) by which we express our love for Him and by which we can gain real personal merit that is really ours. God does not want shoeless servants in heaven - but real authentic children who feel that are part of His Kingdom and bring something to the table - albeit Dad’s grace/allowance and how we spent it to make Dad happy and proud. Christ told us as much when He said: Matthew 6:20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.

I am going to quote you the Catholic Catechism on merit - but its too long so it will go to the next page…

BF

 

[bona_fides_1]

Catholic Catechism on Merit
*
Catholic Catechism

604 By giving up his own Son for our sins, God manifests that his plan for us is one of benevolent love, prior to any merit on our part: “In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins.” God “shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.”

2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God’s gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us “co-heirs” with Christ and worthy of obtaining “the promised inheritance of eternal life.” The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness. “Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God’s gifts.”

2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.

After earth’s exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself.

2025 We can have merit in God’s sight only because of God’s free plan to associate man with the work of his grace. Merit is to be ascribed in the first place to the grace of God, and secondly to man’s collaboration. Man’s merit is due to God.

2026 **The grace of the Holy Spirit can confer true merit **on us, by virtue of our adoptive filiation, and in accordance with God’s gratuitous justice. Charity is the principal source of merit in us before God.

2027** No one can merit the initial** grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.

*​

See MD, you are not so far from Catholic teaching. I think the biggest difference is that your ideas while being partially correct lack the depth and breath that 2,000 years of Catholic revelation, insight and theological study have permitted us to develop. The biggest problem here is that there really is no “formula salvation” and scripture as I am sure you will agree is very interrelated and integrated. One must look to the full message - not just the superficial teachings if one wants to truly understand all that Catholics know about Christ’s teachings and be confident that they have “it all”. When you do “get it all” don’t be surprised that it already waiting for you in our Catholic Catechism. All the work has been done for you - you just need to trust the Church that Jesus founded and you will be all set.

BF

 

[Philthy]

Heres what I said…

when it comes to having a “living hope”…and persevering in faith to actually die and inherit the kingdom of God, love indeed will be a condition, in fact, the primary condition. My guess is that your OSAS inclinations cloud your objectivity in hearing and uniting all that Scripture says regarding salvation. I attempted to address this in post 46 but you apparently overlooked it…:crying:

I purposely intended to distinguish between the ambiguous term "salvation"and the more specific phrase “inherit the kingdom of God” because that latter term is a specific reference to going to Heaven. I did this because you and I have a basic disagreement on the issue of whether everyone who is saved during their mortal life ends up spending eternity in Heaven. But apparently you cannot stand to discuss the very basic issue of why there are so many verses that speak of being saved by faith, but none that speak of actually going to Heaven on the basis of faith alone. In fact, there are plenty of verses that speak of not inheriting the kingdom of God (ie Heaven), and the single unifying feature of all of them is the conditions demonstrate a lack of love of God and neighbor.

Not according to Christ:John 11:23-26 "*Jesus *said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"According to Christ Himself (then confirmed by the Apostles throughout the Epistles) love is not the condition for salvation, but belief in Him.
Like I said, the discussion is about going to Heaven, not merely being born again (saved, in your lingo). Every time the topic of inheriting the kingdom comes up, you like to change it into your catchall phrase “salvation” and then reiterate your position as if we didnt understand it the first go round. If you wish to truly engage, you will need to address the issue of going to Heaven/ inheriting the kingdom directly

Secondly, I didn’t respond to your post because I felt that you were not actually challenging me, but rather the words of Christ Himself in Jn. 3:14-18 & 5:24. Your post seemed to be more of an expression of your own disbelief in the words of Christ concerning Himself and the one who believes in Him. Your problem lies with Christ’s words, not mine.

Oh, you are quite mistaken - on both accounts! I was *not *challenging Christ’s words - I believe them - and I was challenging you and your interpretation of them. You cannot defend your position regarding those verses of John and harmonize them with Paul’s letter to the Galatians. My brief post (#46) exposed that quite clearly (despite my relative incompetence) and it is more likely that you simply wish to avoid the discussion IMHO. Your problem lies with the entirety of the Gospel, not with me.

 

[frr]

I was hungry, I was thirsty, I was naked, I was in prison, I was sick…
The final exam test is there since two thousand years ago… did you read it? Not yet?
You did it to me.

 

[ryanoneil]

Grace replaced Law 2000 years ago. And Jesus said:“I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me” (Jn. 14:6).

There’s no place for the principle of law now that Christ has come, only GRACE through Him.Rom 5:21 "*…so that, as sin reigned in death, even so **grace would reign ***through righteousness to eternal life (how? through Law? NO!) “through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

To the Jews I became like a Jew to win over Jews; to those under the law I became like one under the law-- though I myself am not under the law–to win over those under the law. To those outside the law I became like one outside the law–though I am not outside God’s law but within the law of Christ–to win over those outside the law. (1 Cor 9:20-21)

If we are talking about the Mosaic law I agree with you 100%, but what about the principle of Christ’s law?

I purpose to you that Christ’s law is in the paradigm of Grace. What say you?

 

[Yoeman65]

**Bona fides and Philthy ,

Thank you so much for your fight - I have prayed the St. Michael prayer for your battle with “Moon Dweller - sounds like a pagan name”.

We as Catholics know it is a “both/and” issue NOT a “either/or” issue.

It takes BOTH faith and works and both come from Grace - everything is Grace.

Jesus clearly points out that those that ARE part of the vine (ie. “saved”) can be pruned (ie. lose God’s life-giving grace). Remember that the apostles “worked out their salvation in fear and trembling, hoping - after having run the race that they would not fail in the end to complete the race” - sorry paraphrased.

There are too many Protestants (and Catholics) that “feel” that they ARE SAVED thus can live their lives as they “feel” because they can’t lose their salvation. You are right, very prideful to assume God’s grace when one is NOT living in God’s grace.

Many people use the theif on the cross to “prove” OSAS. Look at it closer. The thief on the cross DID do a “work”. He admonished his cohort in crime. He taught. We don’t know for sure, but maybe he even helped the other sinner be saved. Maybe his “work” on the cross was added to Jesus’s work.

Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions.

See - The bible shows that Jesus established a Church and WE the Church somehow can fill up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions. When we unite our suffering here on the earth with Christ through HIS Church, there is salvation to be gained.

People that don’t get that also can’t get how priests can RE-present the un-bloody sacrefice at the Mass. Jesus died once and for ALL. He “lives” in the present and is thus called “I AM”. That is why we can participate in His salvific act.

He did, is and will save. NOT - He did save. Bible is clear (in it’s entirety) that salvation is ALWAYS offered but not always accepted and once accepted can ALWAYS be lost again until one is in heaven.

How do you get to heaven? Get to know God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit in a personal relationship. Walk with them always. Listen to the Church’s teachings and work out your salvation in fear and trembling. I don’t think there is one quote in the Bible that covers it all. I think that would simplify God too much, but here are a few things that help me:

1. I am third - God, others then me
2. Love God with all your heart soul and mind and next your neighbor as yourself.
3. Follow the 10 commandments in spirit and in truth - not as laws but as character traits
4. Follow prayer of St. Francis of Assiss
5. Beatitudes
6. Nicene Creed
7. Remember that the Church LOVES and tries to create freedom NOT restriction (You are never so free as when you KNOW you are doing the RIGHT thing)
8. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER stop seeking the Lord for He is doing the SAME for you.**

 

[gesselman]

What a tough question. And yet so easy. What we’re taught in our church is that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Period.
Faith in Christ can not come without recognition that we are in need of saving, that we are sinners, and that we are sorry for our sins and desiring to turn away from a life of sin. That is repentence.
Baptism is an outward sign of obedience, a public demonstration of our faith, as are all our other good works. Without these works, we can not be said to have true faith.
But it is the faith that saves, not the baptismal waters. It is the condition of the heart that matters, not the recipe of rituals.
The Church is the universal collection of all believers, no matter which denomination, united by faith in our great High Priest, the one who intervenes for us before the Father, the one whose blood washes away the stain of our sins.
I would like to see a better reconciliation among all Christian sects in recognizing these fundamental elements of the faith.

 

[eaglesmark]

Hi,

It seems people try to mix GRACE and WORKS. Its like water and oil. They cannot be mixed. One must choose the other.

What is GRACE? - its unmerited favor.
Works? - the result would be a reward.

Did Jesus say, going to heaven is a reward?
Did Jesus say to the thief an assurance “truly today you will be with me in paradise” after the thief did some work or before he worked?

What did the thief do? He acknowledge he was a sinner, he believed on Jesus to be sinless. This shows that he has faith on Jesus, believed on Jesus can take away this thief’s sins.

This thief knows exactly what it meant if Jesus was sinless. Jews make sacrifice (an innocent animal) to God, for what? In hope that their sins will be transferred to that innocent animal. It was a shadow of what Christ did on the cross.

So this thief believed that Christ can take away his sins.

Again, when was this thief’s sins taken away? Surely Christ would assure him of paradise if his sins were not taken away. Sin is a no no in heaven.

Repentance or feeling sorry for being a sinner would be useless without having faith in Christ. Acts 20:21 states “… repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ…”

It’s like, I know I’m a sinner. If I acknowledge I’m a sinner can my sins be gone? Nope.
Only Christ can take away sin.

After I believed on Jesus, I’m still a sinner. I can still sin? How can I enter to heaven?

After the thief believed on Christ, was he already sinless or incapable of sinning that is why Jesus assured him of paradise? Nope. He was still a sinner, like us.
Why Christ gave him the assurance? It was his belief again i will reiterate, it was his belief in Jesus Christ.

Has the thief sinned again after they were talking with Jesus? Nobody is perfect. If the thief sinned again will Jesus take back His word? What? Is Jesus Christ not sure of what His talking about? Giving assurance to paradise then take it back. Can Christ make mistake? Do you believe that Jesus Christ is God? Can God make mistakes? We can be assured of our destiny going to heaven because it is not us or any person giving the assurance but it is Jesus Christ himself, John 10:28, “…and I give unto them eternal life, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand”. Who keeps our salvation? It is Jesus Christ himself.

(We still sin because were still in our mortal sinful bodies. What part in us is saved? Our soul and spirit. That is why God will give us a glorious, incorruptible bodies those who will believe on Him.)

Man’s work is imperfect but Christ’s work is perfect.
Some people would like to make sure, so they try to choose both, man’s work and Christ’s work.

Can you really say you trust Christ’s saving work if you try to augment it with your own work? An example: You would like to go up to second floor. There is an existing ladder. What you would do is add a few beams and support to the existing ladder. Are you trusting the ladder?

The example above shows, faith in Christ alone or faith in Christ plus works. The ladder is Christ, additional supports and beams are our work and other person, saints, angels, etc. to save you. Do you trust Christ to save you? Take away your sins?

My friends, if it would be our work we trust, we can never be sure if we can be in heaven. But, I know and am very sure, we’ll be in hell if we trust our works.

But, trust Jesus, (for His work is perfect) to take away your sin. This is our glorious hope that we can be in heaven because Jesus saves us.

If you trust Jesus, your faith will be manifested through your works. Your works is like a smoke in an event of a fire. There can be smoke without a fire, but there can never be a fire without a smoke.

On the example: Faith - fire, good works - smoke.

What can your Jesus do?

 

[ryanoneil]

Hi,

It seems people try to mix GRACE and WORKS. Its like water and oil. They cannot be mixed. One must choose the other.

What is GRACE? - its unmerited favor.
Works? - the result would be a reward.

For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them. (Eph 2:10)

Would you consider these WORKS to be GRACE? They were prepared in advance and given as a free gift, so we must attribute them to God. Which also means we cannot attribute them to ourselves and then boast. Or do you think different?

 

[bona_fides_1]

Hi,

It seems people try to mix GRACE and WORKS. Its like water and oil. They cannot be mixed. One must choose the other.

What is GRACE? - its unmerited favor.
Works? - the result would be a reward.

Did Jesus say, going to heaven is a reward?

It may seem that people mix grace and works more often than is actually the case becuase many Protestants are taught that Catholics think they can work their way to heaven - but this is only a myth. So many can’t help thinking this because this is an old stereotypical belief that was made-up to create false arguments (we call a Strawman argument) to give an occasion to recite new teachings to correct an error that does not exist. But it is a complete error of judgement since no Catholic who knows his catechism thinks of being rewarded for works seperate from grace. It can also be thought by outsiders that because Catholics pray so much and fast and practise self-denial just like the early-church did that Catholics imagine that they can work their way to heaven. But this is untrue - Catholics know that grace is a gift that Christ gives and that for the person with a living-faith it will “work” to show that it is alive just like an un-born baby that is alive in the womb will kick, move and swoon to make its presence known to its mother and reassure her that it is developing just fine and won’t be still born.

Did Jesus say to the thief an assurance “truly today you will be with me in paradise” after the thief did some work or before he worked?
What did the thief do? He acknowledge he was a sinner, he believed on Jesus to be sinless. This shows that he has faith on Jesus, believed on Jesus can take away this thief’s sins.

This thief knows exactly what it meant if Jesus was sinless. Jews make sacrifice (an innocent animal) to God, for what? In hope that their sins will be transferred to that innocent animal. It was a shadow of what Christ did on the cross.

So this thief believed that Christ can take away his sins.

Again, when was this thief’s sins taken away? Surely Christ would assure him of paradise if his sins were not taken away. Sin is a no no in heaven.

As for the thief - there were two - both pinned and immobilized on the cross. The only two things they could do is “hang” either side of Jesus and suffer and use their tongues - one to praise and advance God’s Kingdom and His Justice and one to bemoan God’s justice and curse it. Recall that the good thief who acknowledged that they were justly condemned and were paying the price but that Jesus was innocent and was unjustly suffering. The other thief used his tounge to mock God even only moments from death with no fear of God. Observe too that for a crucified person to speak was an extremely laborious act, It was very hard labor for a person undergoing crucifixation to breath and speak. Eacg breath was precious as it was painful. So it is doubtful most crucified voluntairly spoke much on the cross to preserve their breath so they would not die from asphyxiation caused by exhaustion; even crying or exclamin in pain was doubly painful. To speak a person needed air. But on the cross one is too weak and very pained to push up on the cross against body weight and feel the severe pain of the feet caused by the nails to take in a new breath of air. Thus the words spoken on the cross for all was a severe labor and giving their last “all” of life to say what they had to say. We can imagine many men despaired at this hopeless and miserable condition and begged for death. The good thief made his labor on the cross an eternal merit by speaking of God’s Justice in his own rightful punishment and in witnessing to the innocence of Jesus - for all eternity since its recorded in scripture. The bad thief labored for nothing but a curse for all eternity by neither acknowledging his wrong and by mocking God. Jesus too labored in implicitly forgiving the good thief as just compensation for the thief’s empathizing and joining his suffering condition (and all he had to give Christ in his last painful breaths) to Jesus and acknowledging his sinfulness (by the punishment he accepted) and his faith in Jesus in his last hours of death.

Christ being divine had the power to forgive sins by action of immediate grace and divine will. We believe that even though the Holy Spirit did not yet come (Christ had yet to die and rise again and send the HS at Pentecost) that Jesus granted what we call a “Baptism by Desire” or a supernatural baptism for the good thief by divine will.

Repentance or feeling sorry for being a sinner would be useless without having faith in Christ. Acts 20:21 states “… repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ…”

It’s like, I know I’m a sinner. If I acknowledge I’m a sinner can my sins be gone? Nope.
Only Christ can take away sin.

True. Many can regret the consequences of sin (murdering somone and having to go to prison for life) but get no supernatural benefit for that regret since its all self-directed selfish regret with no or little remorse for their victims and society or offense to God.

more to come…

BF

 

[bona_fides_1]

After I believed on Jesus, I’m still a sinner. I can still sin? How can I enter to heaven?

After the thief believed on Christ, was he already sinless or incapable of sinning that is why Jesus assured him of paradise? Nope. He was still a sinner, like us.
Why Christ gave him the assurance? It was his belief again i will reiterate, it was his belief in Jesus Christ.

Has the thief sinned again after they were talking with Jesus? Nobody is perfect. If the thief sinned again will Jesus take back His word? What? Is Jesus Christ not sure of what His talking about? Giving assurance to paradise then take it back. Can Christ make mistake? Do you believe that Jesus Christ is God? Can God make mistakes? We can be assured of our destiny going to heaven because it is not us or any person giving the assurance but it is Jesus Christ himself, John 10:28, “…and I give unto them eternal life, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand”. Who keeps our salvation? It is Jesus Christ himself.

Here I am afraid you have gone too far since you are trying to make the case that one can not lose their salvation once they believe. Jesus revealed a supernatural truth to the good thief that he was of the elect and would go to heaven because Jesus in His Divinity is Omniscient and knew that the good-thief would not commit any new grave unforgiven sins after He had performed the work that God had prepared for Him to honor Jesus and testify for all future Christian readers of the Gospel. The good theif could still have out of freewill despaired, or had illicit thoughts or used his freewill to curse Jesus before he died. Had he done that it is likely that he would have gone to hell. But Jesus through personal revelation gave him the highest grace we know - the grace of final perseverance in announcing he would be with Jesus in paradise that day.

Catholics do not like to use the term “sinners” when we speak of each other. It is not our tradition. This is a “Protestant thing”. I see this as a form of self-denigration that is also over focused on self - which itself can be sinful in thinking like this. When one is fresh out of baptism or sacramental absolution one is a new creature - spotless before God. God’s children are not seen as “sinners” but as beloved children. Do we have the capacity to sin - YES. But we are only a sinner when we commit actual sin but there are varying degrees of sin and the small venial sins that we can commit daily can be forgiven instantly by simple prayer or going to mass or blessing oneself reverently while recognizing our faults. A practicing Catholic who is conforming to his Christian duties is a pure Christian and is holy. Likewise all humans have a capacity to be Christ like and should be extended the dignity of Christ. No one would think of going around calling Christ a sinner! So none should call their brothers and sisters “sinners” as if its a uniting principal. Our uniting principal is “Christ” - so we honor each other as we are told to do in scripture by calling each other “Christians” or brothers/sisters.

(We still sin because were still in our mortal sinful bodies. What part in us is saved? Our soul and spirit. That is why God will give us a glorious, incorruptible bodies those who will believe on Him.)

Man’s work is imperfect but Christ’s work is perfect.
Some people would like to make sure, so they try to choose both, man’s work and Christ’s work.

Can you really say you trust Christ’s saving work if you try to augment it with your own work? An example: You would like to go up to second floor. There is an existing ladder. What you would do is add a few beams and support to the existing ladder. Are you trusting the ladder?

The example above shows, faith in Christ alone or faith in Christ plus works. The ladder is Christ, additional supports and beams are our work and other person, saints, angels, etc. to save you. Do you trust Christ to save you? Take away your sins?

My friends, if it would be our work we trust, we can never be sure if we can be in heaven. But, I know and am very sure, we’ll be in hell if we trust our works.

But, trust Jesus, (for His work is perfect) to take away your sin. This is our glorious hope that we can be in heaven because Jesus saves us.

If you trust Jesus, your faith will be manifested through your works. Your works is like a smoke in an event of a fire. There can be smoke without a fire, but there can never be a fire without a smoke.

On the example: Faith - fire, good works - smoke.

What can your Jesus do?

Our principal work common to all Christians is the Work of God - to believe in Christ. But the belief is more than mere intellectual assent. It is a living faith that requires we believe in ALL Christ said and did - including OBEYING His commandments and in Loving and serving (CHARITY- A SUPERNATURAL WORK) one another as He did.

We are each called to carry our own cross - this is a supernatural work that requires we suffer each other’s: faults, ignorance, lack of faith, insults, poor judgements, mistakes, persecution, penalties for doing wrong, slanders etc.

Peace.
BF

 

[moondweller]

For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them. (Eph 2:10)

Would you consider these WORKS to be GRACE? They were prepared in advance and given as a free gift, so we must attribute them to God. Which also means we cannot attribute them to ourselves and then boast. Or do you think different?

The question is who are the “we” that are “created in Christ Jesus FOR good works” (not “by” them)?

The answer being those described in verses eight and nine. Those who “have been saved by grace through faith…(salvation being) the GIFT of God, not as a result of works.”

First salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. It’s these believers who are subsequently “created in Christ Jesus” (the “Last Adam”) FOR good works." Their eternal identity no longer in Adam (dead in trespasses and sins), but now in the resurrected Christ, “made alive” (forevermore) together with Him (Eph. 2:5; Col. 2:13).

“Prepared beforehand” works are reserved only for those who first “have been saved by grace through faith.” The works themselves save no one. They follow and accompany salvation and a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17), but they are not the cause of them.

True Divine grace has absolutely nothing to do with personal merit. That’s why you’ll never find the concept of personal merit connected to salvation in the Bible. Although such a concept is found in the CCC. Personal merit connected to salvation is based on Catholic tradition - not the Scriptures.