M
- Status
M
moondweller
Guest
I think to be theologically accurate God does send people to Hell (the Lake of Fire). But no one is sent to Hell because of sins, but because of UNBELIEF. This side of the cross they refuse to believe in the Person and redemptive work of Jesus Christ on their behalf. Hence, they die in their sins (Jn. 8:24). How tragic, since upon belief in Him ALL their sins would be forever forgiven, past, present, & future (Acts 10:43; 13:38; 26:18; Col. 1:13).
Yes, according to His mercy He sent His Son into this world, and while on the cross "He made Him who knew no sin {to be} sin (our sins) on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him (2 Cor. 5:21). According to His mercy the Son incarnated into this world to be God’s Sin-Bearer (1 Pet 2:24), so that He (God) could, by His GRACE, save, to the uttermost, those who believe in His Son for salvation. According to His mercy He sent His Son; according to His grace He saves those who believe in Him.
Yes, this is true - the Law ended with Christ and now grace reigns through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Rom. 5:21).
This is true. The gospel message to the world is to BELIEVE what Christ has DONE. Faith has always been the way of salvation. But this side of the cross it’s faith in Christ, alone.
AMEN! Sealing by the Holy Spirit is part of our salvation.
B
bona_fides_1
Guest
Utter Lie.
Belief in Christ does not give anyone a license to sin. One must repent and be forgiven of ALL post-baptismal sins. There is no way anyone can genuinely call oneself a believer if they die with unrepentant and unforgiven grave sins. This soul goes to hell for committing the one unforgivable sin - blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) states, “There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit. Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss” (CCC 1864).
CAF Ask an Apologist: Is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit forgivable?
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is essentially the willful rejection of God’s grace and forgiveness.
A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture explains, “Unlike other blasphemies or sins which might be partially excused by ignorance, passion or inadvertence, this was[/is] a sin of willful malice and blindness to the light. As long as such a mentality persists, pardon is impossible, not because of any limitation of God, but because those who are guilty of this sin refuse to respond to the promptings of grace” (p.912).
BF
B
bona_fides_1
Guest
This is patently false and contradicts itself. If all we had to do is believe in what Christ has done there would be no need to even listen to His teachings. But by (misinterpreting) only one of His many teachings you are demonstrating that one must also beleive in what He taught. But, this reveals that you are also teaching wrongly that you have faith in your own facilities for reasoning as if infallable. This is by definition “not by faith alone” but by faith in one’s ability to overcome their own fallen and corrupt intellect to then infallably self-teach. This is thus proven wrong again.QuickCat:
This is true. The gospel message to the world is to BELIEVE what Christ has DONE. Faith has always been the way of salvation. But this side of the cross it’s faith in Christ, alone.
We are to believe in Christ and all he taught and did. Part of what He taught is to obey Him - including to avoid sin and repent from sin. Part of what He also taught is that those who reject His appointed disciples reject Him. No one can say in truth that they “believe in Christ” if they reject Him or His disciples. Further no one is saved by mere human faith alone. This is just a work of mere human estate. Only supernatural faith can save - and that is a supernatural gift from God that is normatively given by God through the Church viz instruction and baptism.
BF
M
mickeydbac
Guest
May I respectfully refer to Holy Scripture to answer the question, “How does one get to heaven?” or “How does one get saved from hell?” Our loving God has provided us an abundance of passages in His Word which answers these critical questions. These are some of my favorites from St. Paul: Ephesians 2:8-10, “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” Also St. Paul nails it after he writes in Romans 3:20-26 that “…by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God has passed over the sins that were previously committed to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.”
Our Lord and Savior looks at the repentant saved man and “As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us”. Psalms 193:12 And Jesus gave us a second chance so to speak when He gave us the New Covenant mentioned by the writer of Hebrews in chapter 8:6-13. And that new and better covenant not only is based on a second chance that is a clean slate. We’re washed clean from all our sinful, unbelieving past. We are given a clean slate, so to speak. And the new covenant is based on a personal relationship with Him. We are perfect in Christ when we accept Him and what He did for us at the cross and His Resurrection. What joy a believer has when he trusts by faith what God has done and becomes a child of God. Hallelujah what a Savior
Our Lord and Savior looks at the repentant saved man and “As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us”. Psalms 193:12 And Jesus gave us a second chance so to speak when He gave us the New Covenant mentioned by the writer of Hebrews in chapter 8:6-13. And that new and better covenant not only is based on a second chance that is a clean slate. We’re washed clean from all our sinful, unbelieving past. We are given a clean slate, so to speak. And the new covenant is based on a personal relationship with Him. We are perfect in Christ when we accept Him and what He did for us at the cross and His Resurrection. What joy a believer has when he trusts by faith what God has done and becomes a child of God. Hallelujah what a Savior
B
bona_fides_1
Guest
Holy Writ has over 35,000 verses. There is no single “catch all” salvation formula in the bible. One must live by every word of God - including what was written down and also by what was handed down by apostolic tradition. The bible tells us to conform to the handed down gospel of the apostles by word or letter – this means their teaching traditions. There is an entire teaching tradition that is seperate from the written word. This was made purposely this way to prevent false Christians like Simon Magus types from gaming salvation by mere possession of a book or knowledge - as if the words were magic phrases of incantation. One must be “transformed” by Christ from the inside out and made into a new created being - not just “covered over” in Christ’s blood as some of the pop-myths are in modern neo-Christianity. The bible tells us that there is no valid concept of private interpretation of scripture. There is no promise of infallability in interpreting of scripture by private reading of scripture. Therefor it is very dangerous to read the gospel and think one is saved by following one’s own interpretation of what it means. This is the role of the Church, the Catholic Church, to teach proper Christianity so a person can DO what is required to be saved. Having faith is a work as real as any other work. When Paul speaks of works not saving he means works of law. He does not mean the work of God (e.g. John 6:29 “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”).
A book does not save - Christ saves. And Christ saves only through His Church and normatively through the sacramental graces of the Church itself since Christ is its head and all grace flows through Him. Christ won us the grace necessary for salvation on the cross. But the part that non-Catholics do not understand is that one must allocate that grace to them personally and participate in it personally. We do that by being members of His Church so we can stay in Him. In the Church one has access to rivers of grace through the sacraments - especially the initial sacrament of initiation (baptism) and then the sustaining sacrament of Holy Eucharist. St. Paul said as much here:
Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ
One must beleive in Christ - but that means one must also DO (works) all the things that Christ commanded - including that initial work of belief - God’s work and obeying His commandments. No one gains heaven unless He labors for Christ to build up the Kingdom (feeding the poor in body or spirit, evangelizing etc.). Grace gives us the supernatural energy necessary for Divine Works and for transforming our souls by God’s Holy Spirit.
A faith without attendant works is a DEAD FAITH and is only HUMAN FAITH. One must have SUPERNATURAL FAITH - A DIFFERENT KIND OF FAITH. This is a gift and it must be accepted or else one perishes in a dead & false faith.
We are given a new life in Christ in baptism. But we must then not soil our clean baptismal robes so to speak (our cleaned souls) and disgrace ourselves by returning to the dog’s vomit of sin. If we do - we must repent again and seek apostolic forgivness or else die unrepentant and commit the one unforgivable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
The new covenant is based on a personal relationship to Jesus but this does not exclude the obligation to also have a relationship with His Family - His Church. Christ can not be entered into covenantially by anyone who thinks he can divide Christ from His church by his own personal relationship. Salvation means one gets Christ AND ALL of His Family too!
We are not perfect in Christ at the instant we first accept Christ. That is spiritual justification and that makes us a Christian in baptism. Our perfection in Christ is a life long process that is not completed until God’s final divine work in transforming us “declared good” and crowed in heaven.
Indeed - the believer can know great joy here on earth. But we also must realize that salvation is not a mere good feeling (a work of the senses) and that Christians are all baptised into Christ’s passion and suffering as well as His glory. We are called to suffer for one another just as Christ was. There is a joy in suffering and all Christians are called to it in some manner - even if only called to suffer the final just sentence of physical death. When we speak of Christian “Joy” we speak of supernatural joy. This is not the same thing as human emotional joy yet it can be manifest in this way sometimes -but rarely at all times. Christ Himself was gravely troubled in spirit during the agony in the garden. He joyed to do the father’s will but also as a human being could feel less than joyful in the human emotions. We should be careful to not gauge our Christian maturity on only mere human emotions and understand that our outward manifestations are not the same thing necessarily as our soul’s inner disposition. This same principal applies to those who live in sin and are happy as pigs in mud but their consciences do not bother then because they have an eye for the earthly thoughts and emotions. If salvation were a matter of “feeling good” we could just hire motivational speakers to stand up and thump bibles and speak an old lie as long as we felt good. Sadly - this is exactly what goes on in many of the non-Catholic “Franchise Christianity” “churches” in modern times.
BF
Q
QuickCat
Guest
No true believer in the LORD Jesus Christ believes that we have a “license to sin.” On the contrary, we now have a license to serve. Every believer will stand before the Bema seat of the LORD Jesus Christ. We are there to either be rewarded or be denied rewards, but the homeland for every believer is heaven. Paul called the Corinthians “saints,” but they were carnal to the extreme, and yet still saved. They will lose rewards at the Bema. One thing I have noticed on this and other forums: The fact that our LORD Jesus Christ, in His first advent, came “…only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel” [Mt. 15:24]. He ministered to a people who were still under the Law. It is a common error to confuse the kingdom of the gospels with the Body of Christ. You can’t mix these two callings. Israel has an earthly hope and calling while the Body of Christ has a heavenly one! The role of the church in this dispensation is to train believers to be ambassadors for the LORD Jesus Christ. We are to “Do the work of the ministry” [Eph. 4:12].
Grace and Peace,
QC
B
bona_fides_1
Guest
I agree that no true believer thinks they have a license to sin - but there are many Protetsant denominations who do think that after they make their single profession of faith or altar call etc. they are “saved” and sin is no longer sin and one is immune to any ill effect of illicit or immoral behavior should they have an occasional test of the flesh to point out where Christ wants them to improve on etc.
Both believers and unbelievers have a license to serve since Christ is Lord and every knee both in heaven or hell will bend to His name. But the unbeliever will gain no merit for his service anymore so than the theif on the left was merited for his service in instigating the events leading to the good-thief’s opportunity to glorify God and find His favor. The moral of the story is – all on earth are fated to suffer due to our fallen nature and if we are to suffer either side of the cross and suffer then one should suffer for the glory of God on His right side of the cross.
The Berma seat imagery and focus is a Protestant tradition. It is figurative of Christ’s authority to Judge and not necessairly literal. But Catholics have no real problem with the concept.
Actually we rewarded each according to our works. Evil works are rewarded with the fruits of hell - isolation, imprisonment, suffering, eternal remorse and bitterness etc. Good works are rewarded on the first hand with beatitiude with God. The greater crowns are given to those who produced for what talents they were given and expected. The greater the reward the deeper one may know God as He knows himself since one’s spiritual capacity is grown by works of love. In simple terms - more charity on earth the more capacity for grace one has and the more grace the deeper one may draw close to God.
I don’t agree with your belief that Israel has an earthly calling. Christ came to be lifted up so He could draw all men to himself. As for kingdoms - there are two we need to be concerned with - the kingdom of Christ and the Kingdom of God. The role of the church is more than being ambassadors for Christ – depending on how you mean it. We are also to be the light of the nations and to heal the sick and downtrodden (from their sins and physical infirmities) and to administer the sacraments of the church and to offer the daily and perfect sacrifice in the memorial of the Lord from east to west etc. The Body of Christ is the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church with Christ as its head, the Successor of Peter as its earthly shepherd and all those outside the formal church who are still imperfectly joined to her through a shared baptism.
BF
P
Philthy
Guest
Is belief something that is entirely gifted as well or is it something that we must do?
If it is the former, why discuss it at all? Either God will gift it or He will not.
If it is the latter - at least partially - then it has an element of “work” to it.
And don’t forget that if YOU dont forgive others their trespasses then God won’t forgive you yours (Matt 6:14, Mark 11:25). Is that grace as well - forgiving others? Or is it something that we do?
I thought of you at Mass on Sunday as I was listening to the 1st reading from Acts of the Apostles, Chapter 14:
After they had proclaimed the good news to that city and made a considerable number of disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Iconium and to Antioch. They strengthened the spirits of the disciples and exhorted them to persevere in the faith, saying, “It is necessary for us to undergo many hardships to enter the kingdom of God.”
Notice again how your main man - Paul - when talking about entering the “kingdom of God”, which is Heaven, has much more to say than “salvation is by faith alone”. This verse clearly indicates that they already had faith, since they were “exhorted to persevere in the faith”. And the faith they had was not just any faith, it was “the faith”.
In your lingo, that means they were “saved”. But Paul isnt done, he goes on to tell them that it is “necessary to undergo many hardships to enter the kingdom of God.”
Perseverance in the faith is a requirement to enter the kingdom of God, MD. Perseverance requires some effort on our part. Not my words, but Pauls.
Blessings!
P
Philthy
Guest
Being saved is not the same thing as going to Heaven! You obviously have the two confused. There are many, many verses that speak of going to Heaven (aka inheriting the kingdom of God) but none of them say you get there on faith alone - not even one. Faith is how we enter into relationship with God, ie how we are born again. Being born again (aka saved) begins the process of our ultimate calling - going to Heaven - it does not complete it.
Furthermore, many verses which speak of those who will NOT inherit the kingdom of God (ie Heaven) speak of behaviors which are incompatible with heaven - the issue of faith is not even usually addressed since the comments are directed toward those who already have accepted Christ as Lord. Perseverance in faith is sometimes spoken of, but mostly when it comes to not inheriting the kingdom of God, verses deal with specific behaviors which jeopardize one’s eternal home. Here are a few:
Acts 14:22 “It is necessary for us to undergo many hardships to enter **the kingdom of God.”
1 Cor 6:9: "Do you not know that the unjust will not inheritthe kingdom of God**? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:20 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness,idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions,occasions of envy, 15 drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
**
Eph 5:5: **Be sure of this, that no immoral or impure or greedy person, that is, an idolater, **has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
**
It seems very obvious to me - crystal clear as they say. I addressed this at greater length in post 46 - MD didnt wish to address it - perhaps you are interested?
Blessings!
P
Philthy
Guest
Not only dont true believers have a license to sin, true believers dont actually persist in particular unrepentant sins, and we have an obligation to avoid doing so. Thats the whole point of Paul’s letters which I quoted for you (1Cor 6:9;Eph 5:20 Gal 5:5)
Again, not only a license, but we have an obligation to serve and the grace to accomplish every good work that God has prepared beforehand for us to walk in.
Again, no where is such a verse to be found regarding “believer” and “heaven” - that is a theological construct of your own making. Furthermore, you seem to think that Heaven without rewards is an acceptable eternity - such an opinion is not supported by Scripture. The NT authors all emphasiszed works,
Q
QuickCat
Guest
The apostle to the Gentiles does not agree with your assessment that we get into the church in order to be saved. We are saved and then God the Holy Spirit baptizes us into the Body of Christ - 1 Cor 12:13. Paul also writes that we are saved after BELIEVING the gospel of our salvation. He goes on to assure the believer that this is not a temporary salvation until we sin. He tells us that upon believing the gospel we are SEALED by God the Holy Spirit until the redemption of our body - Ephesians 1:13. Further, Paul writes that the gospel of salvation is the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. He tells us that when the Lord Jesus Christ went to the cross He paid the FULL penalty for our sins and has forgiven us ALL trespasses - Colossians 2:13. He writes to the Hebrews that the Lord Jesus Christ offered one sacrifice [Himself] for sins FOREVER and SAT DOWN at the right hand of God, showing a finished, completed transaction - Hebrews 10:12. You can’t add to absolute perfection - The once for all sacrifice of our wonderful Savior and Lord, the LORD Jesus Christ. You have now been exposed to the gospel of the grace of God and are without excuse - BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS AND THOU SHALT BE SAVED!
M
moondweller
Guest
What I said was no lie. But I agree with you that belief in Christ, which results in God forgiving ALL the believer’s sins, because of ALL of them were imputed to Christ on the cross (2 Cor. 5:21; 1 Pet. 2:24), does not give the believer a “license” to sin, any more than you catholics confessing your sins to a priest to be absolved gives you the liberty to sin and confess, sin and confess, sin and confess. “Sin tonight for tomorrow I confess.”
The attitude toward sin for every true believer should be that of what Paul wrote to the church at Rome:Rom 6:1-2 "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?"Paul goes on to explain in that chapter, according to Divine Revelation (which is what true Christianity is based on) that every true believer in Christ has (positionally) died with Christ. That is, “the old-self” (meaning all who he was in Adam) was co-crucified and co-buried with Christ. Hence, as Christ bore ALL our sins in His body on the cross and subsequently “died TO sin, once for all” (vs. 10), we (true believers) also died TO sin with Him. And, the Scriptures reveal, we (who are now saved by grace) have also been raised up with Christ (positionally), made a “new creation” in Him, the resurrected Christ. It’s the believer’s new eternal identity:2 Cor 5:17 "Therefore if anyone is in Christ, {he is} a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come."And for this reason Paul asked, “How shall we who have died TO sin still live in it?” True Christianity isn’t primarily about not sinning, but having died TO SIN, once for all, with Christ. And:Rom 8:1 “Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.”
Actually, the message of the gospel (good news) of Jesus Christ states differently:Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”
Acts 13:38 “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,”
Acts 26:18 "…** that they may receive forgiveness of sins** and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’
Col 1:14 “in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.”
If one dies in his sins it means he had never believed in the first place. He may have been religious, but he had never believed in what Christ had DONE for Him, once for all:John 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am {He,} you will die in your sins."Can you show in the theopneustos Scriptures where it says one must “repent of unforgiven,” so-called, “grave sins?” Or where it even states that one is to “repent of sins” at all?
The truth is, according to the Scriptures the one who “believes” in Him “receives forgiveness of sins” (Acts 10:43). This is/was the Apostolic proclamation (Acts 13:38). It’s part of the gospel that is to be BELIEVED.
The ministry of the Holy Spirit, during this Dispensation of grace, is to convict the world concerning sin, righteousness and judgment (Jn. 16:8); to have guided the Apostles into all truth (soteriological & eschatological; Jn. 16:13), which He (the Holy Spirit) then preserved in Holy Writ, the N.T. Epistles - for us; and to glorify Christ (Jn. 16:14). The blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is, ultimately, unbelief. ALL sins done by men are forgiven, except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit: i.e., disbelief in the Person and work of Jesus Christ and the message of God’s GRACE toward us through Him (Mk. 3:28-29).
I totally agree. You just said it yourself. And now in the next line you contradict yourself:
What we are to “believe” is the Apostolic message of what He has DONE, once for all, on the cross. After the cross, the “ministry of the word of reconciliation” (to God) through faith in Jesus Christ was committed to the Apostles and that “word” was preserved in Holy Writ. IOW, Christ completed the work of reconciliation 2000 years ago, but the “word” of that reconciliation is still being preached to each generation to be BELIEVED unto salvation, according to the Scriptures.
Jesus didn’t teach the great doctrines of the cross, such as redemption, reconciliation, propitiation, justification and the believers future glorification. These are doctrines based on Christ’s sacrificial DEATH. Doctrines which could not be understood and believed until AFTER His crucifixion and bodily resurrection. These constitute what it means to “believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved” (Acts 16:31).
M
moondweller
Guest
bona fides:
Speaking of the Gentiles that would come into the church through faith in Christ, Peter was told:‘What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.’ (Acts 11:9).And he testified of this Divine cleansing at the council in Jerusalem:Acts 15:9 “…and He made no distinction between us (Jews) and them (Gentiles), cleansing their hearts by faith..”
But according to the Scriptures Christ is our Savior (Titus 1:4), having bore all our sins on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24). And we are saved “BY GRACE,” “through FAITH,” not so-called sacramental “graces.” I don’t find such saving “graces” in the Scriptures. Only save GRACE.
Again, you’re advocating salvation by works. Whereas the Apostolic teaching is that salvation is “a gift of God, not as a result of works” (Eph. 2:9).
Actually, the New Covenant is based on Christ’s shed blood for the forgiveness of sins. We are recipients of that Divine forgiveness at the time of faith in Christ. Only those those who have personally believed are to be, subsequently, baptized. Baptism saves no one. Men are saved by grace through FAITH - according to the Scriptures.
Speaking of the Gentiles that would come into the church through faith in Christ, Peter was told:‘What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.’ (Acts 11:9).And he testified of this Divine cleansing at the council in Jerusalem:Acts 15:9 “…and He made no distinction between us (Jews) and them (Gentiles), cleansing their hearts by faith..”
Heb 10:14 "For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified."You don’t understand the power of God to save, perfectly, those who believe through the Person and work of the incarnated Son (see Rom. 1:16-17).
M
moondweller
Guest
Your logic does not coincide with that of Divine Revelation. You must adjust your thinking to that of God’s.
According to the theopneustos Scriptures God does not consider faith a work. I’ve pointed this out to you before but you seem to delight in your own reasoning. Here’s what the Word of God says:Eph 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."Please take careful note that in the above verse God does not consider faith a work. And if He doesn’t, then nor should you.
You fail to rightly divide the Word of truth. Here’s the Apostolic teaching, this side of the cross, on forgiveness of sins during this church age:Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”
Acts 13:38 “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,”
Acts 26:18 “…to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’”
Col 1:14 “…in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.”
No, when it comes to salvation Paul preaches faith alone. It is the saved that undergo many hardships while still in this Christ rejecting world, because it is only the saved that enter the kingdom of God. Paul was addressing the saved, he was not instructing them on how to be saved.
The “kingdom of God” is not restricted to heaven. But as for believers still on this earth, we’re told that our citizenship is in heaven
hil 3:20-22 "For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself."We who have believed have been purchased with His blood. We belong to Him, and where He is, there we will be. When He returns to this earth we’ll come with Him. When He reigns on this earth for a thousand years, we’ll reign with Him - according to the Scriptures.
P
Philthy
Guest
Hi MD -
Ummm, you never quite answered the questions I put before you. You did state your position that the faith which resulted in their salvation was not a work (by implicit extension of Eph 2), but you never answered the meatier question which followed it: If faith is entirely gifted, why discuss it at all? Do you think God will fail to give the gift of faith if we the faithful dont engage in the work of preaching? Yes or no please.
I consider faith a gift. A gift which can be cherished and nurtured but which can also be abused and lost. The question in the context of this thread is what happens if we lose our faith?
Those are some pretty serious buzz words: “this side of the cross” and “this church age”. It sounds like you are saying that Christs words dont apply to us, or that he bothered wasting words to a generation that had no hope of salvation. That seems silly(ie untenable) since the discussion he was having was with his apostles who were asking him how to pray and he delivered the Lords prayer and then explained what it meant. They all lived to “this side of the Cross”. I dont remember any of the NT authors “this side of the cross” saying that the Lords Prayer is no longer an appropriate prayer for Christians. Is that your position as well?
Furthermore, I commented on Pauls letter to the Ephesians -which was written “this side of the Cross” in Post 46, but you have yet to address it. In that letter - as well as the letter to the Galatians and Corinthians - Paul specifically lists specific sins which jeopardize one from inheriting the kingdom of God. He wrote that letter to saved christians. Perhaps it is your logic that does not entirely coincide with Divine Revelation.
Now, again, you’re twisting the discussion so that it will only be about “salvation” when I specifically have raised the issue of the difference between salvation and “inheriting the kingdom of God”.
I know: he moves away from discussing how to be saved to discussing how to get to Heaven - thats the point that continually flies over your head. You need to, as you said, “rightly divide the word of God”.
Its great that you ran to another verse in an attempt to demonstrate your theology of Heaven, but what a true champ would do is address the very ones I commented on and perhaps shed some light on my errors. They deal more specifically with the issue at hand: Is there anything during my earthly life I need to do or avoid doing once I have been saved by grace through faith, in order to “inherit the kingdom of God”. This is the question you seem to avoid at all costs IMHO. Paul clearly articulates some things to those saved believers in Corinth, Ephesus and Galatia that don’t quite make sense with my understanding of your theology.The “kingdom of God” is not restricted to heaven. But as for believers still on this earth, we’re told that our citizenship is in heaven
Q
QuickCat
Guest
The O.T. is full of prophecy concerning the earthly kingdom for Israel. Israel is promised a land, a kingdom and a king on earth. Our LORD Jesus Christ spent His last 40 days on earth opening these Scriptures to the eleven so that they understood this kingdom would be on earth. They asked the logical question: “Will thou, AT THIS TIME, restore AGAIN the kingdom to Israel?” Acts 1:6. The one thing our LORD did not cover was the time element. In Acts 3:19-21 Peter, addressing Israel, offers the return of the LORD Jesus Christ contingent upon Israel’s repentance. Notice that all of this was foretold by the prophets [vs 21]. BTW, Peter and the 12 will sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel in this earthly kingdom. Matthew 19:28. At that time they will fulfill John 20:23. Did you not know this?
P
Philthy
Guest
I suppose when the rich jew asked Christ, “What must I do to inherit eternal life?” he was asking about the earthly kingdom?
Of course there was an expectation of an earthly kingdom among the Jews, but that is not the entirety of their hope. Did you not know this?
M
moondweller
Guest
P
Philthy
Guest
Its unclear from Eph 2:8-9 that faith is not also the gift of God, as are grace and salvation. But you are correct, you never said it was a gift. So essence of the question remains MD: Is coming to faith in Christ something we actively participate in or is it something God does independent of our efforts? If it is not a gift, who is responsible for the faith that you have?
It is if the conditions of merit dont warrant the gift. The fact that there are conditions upon grace does not negate its status as a gift. The fact that there are any conditions at all that we can meet in order to be saved is, in itself, a gift of God that we dont deserve. For example, Faith is a condition of salvation, it is not a gift according to you, and yet you still view salvation as a gift. Therefore the condition of faith does not obviate the gift nature of salvation even according to your own testimony. Furthermore if there were no conditions of salvation everyone would be saved.
In your frustration you have resorted to claiming that the unregenerate arent worth preaching to because they cannot comprehend the gospel. That, of course, is absurd, and would negate your presence here at CAF.
I never thought such a thing. I was pointing out the absurdity of your position that Christs words following the Lords prayer were somehow not applicable “this side of the cross”. Those words are perfectly applicable this side of the cross, as evidenced by his preaching them to his apostles who experienced both sides of the cross. Those words contradict your theology. They place a condition upon forgiveness(by God) which is a requirement of salvation. “If you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will God forgive you yours” Its not that complicated, unless you try to explain it away…
- Status