How to get to heaven

[bona_fides_1]

But according to the Scriptures Christ is our Savior (Titus 1:4), having bore all our sins on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24). And we are saved “BY GRACE,” “through FAITH,” not so-called sacramental “graces.” I don’t find such saving “graces” in the Scriptures. Only save GRACE.Again, you’re advocating salvation by works. Whereas the Apostolic teaching is that salvation is “a gift of God, not as a result of works” (Eph. 2:9).Actually, the New Covenant is based on Christ’s shed blood for the forgiveness of sins. We are recipients of that Divine forgiveness at the time of faith in Christ. Only those those who have personally believed are to be, subsequently, baptized. Baptism saves no one. Men are saved by grace through FAITH - according to the Scriptures.

Speaking of the Gentiles that would come into the church through faith in Christ, Peter was told:‘What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.’ (Acts 11:9).And he testified of this Divine cleansing at the council in Jerusalem:Acts 15:9 “…and He made no distinction between us (Jews) and them (Gentiles), cleansing their hearts by faith..”

Heb 10:14 "For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified."You don’t understand the power of God to save, perfectly, those who believe through the Person and work of the incarnated Son (see Rom. 1:16-17).
​

MD, you would do well to read today’s first reading at every Catholic Church. It italicizes the exact problem that you have. You are preaching a different gospel that you heard from men who had no authority to teach it. You are using a strong Protestant re-interpretation of scripture that none in the early Church ever taught. It is pointless to read scripture if all you are going to do is make it fit into your Protestant world-view since that is the reformers teachings - it is not apostolic teaching.
Acts 15: 22 - 31:

22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, **to choose men from among them **and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsab’bas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren,
23 with the following letter: “The brethren, both the apostles and the elders, to the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cili’cia, greeting.
24 Since we have heard that some persons from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions,
25 it has seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to choose men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 men who have risked their lives for the sake of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth.
28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:
29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”
30 So when they were sent off, they went down to Antioch; and having gathered the congregation together, they delivered the letter.
31 And when they read it, they rejoiced at the exhortation.

Notice the apostolic pattern of teaching? Men from AMONG the CHURCH are chosen by the ecclesial leadership to bring teachings to those who were taught by unauthorized and self-directed men who taught strange teachings that disturbed those others. The Protestants have no sanction to teach since none of them were appointed as representatives of the church. You are just echoing 500 year old errors.

You can not use the bible to discount the means by which grace is transmit in the sacraments. The sacraments are apostolic and the only way grace was transmit since the earliest Christian times. This is not salvation by works. This is obeying all Christ told us as we are commanded to obey. Obey happens to be a verb. Be careful that in your zeal to avoid works that you do not disobey Jesus’ commandments. Love is also a verb. Would you not love for fear of doing works?

Faith is a work.

(John 6:27-29) “Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.” {28} Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” {29} Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

BF​

 

[moondweller]

I find it sad that one of my best friends who happens to be atheist will go to hell. Shes such a beautiful person too, inside and outside.
I guess its just the way things are…

You don’t know if that’s “just the way things are.” She could turn from her unbelief to belief. Speak to her about salvation through faith in Christ and continue to pray for her salvation. And since she’s one of your best friends, just keep loving her. :hug1:

 

[bona_fides_1]

I find it sad that one of my best friends who happens to be atheist will go to hell.
Shes such a beautiful person too, inside and outside.
I guess its just the way things are…

This is not a matter for us to judge. Only God can know the inner beauty of a soul.

There are some who have external appearances of beauty that are inwardly corrupt. Lucifer before he fell was the most beautiful and splendid angel in all of creation - but beauty must reflect in service to the glory of the Creator or else it is useless self-magnification.

BF

 

[moondweller]

Of course Jesus sets foot on earth and of course we are given imperishable bodies. But there is NO millennial reign and there is no pre-tribulation secret rapture. The rapture or “catching up” is simply the elect being given the honor to meet Jesus in the air in His triumphant procession to earth to claim his victory. Victory comes by divine judgement. He separates the wicked and proclaims His final word, sends the wicked to hell and then all of Creation is destroyed and remade. End of story, end of age and end of human history. What happens in the new age is an eternity of celebration and glory and wonderful things to good too even contemplate. The 1000 year reign in metaphorical for an endless period of time.

BF

If the “catching up” is simply the honor of the elect meeting Jesus in the air then why does Jesus, after He returns to this earth set up His glorious throne and still have to gather all the nations (Gentiles) before Him and separate them as the shepherd separates the sheep and the goats (Matt. 25:31-33)? If all the elect met Him in the air there would be no need for this exercise. Also, there’s no “catching up” spoken about in those verses, no bodily resurrection and no translation of living saints. Clearly you’ve got your chronology wrong, my friend.

As I said, the ancient Hebrew prophets did not at all describe heaven in their prophecies (you need to read them), but rather a glorious Kingdom on earth when righteousness will be the rule and all the nations will go up to Jerusalem from year to year and worship the King, the Lord of lords, and celebrate the feast of booths (Zech. 14:16). It’s the time when the words spoken to Mary at the Annunciation are fulfilled (Lk. 1;32-33).

For at least the first 300 years the church was Premillennial. That is, they understood that the prophetic Scriptures revealed a literal, earthly kingdom and that Christ would return prior to that time and set it up Himself. Those who believed this were called “orthodox.” They were the majority. Those who did not believe this were called “heretics.” The Amillennial view (the eschatological position of Catholicism and most Protestant Reformed) did not gain ground until the 4th century. Augustine had a lot to do with this through his literary work, “The City of God,” where he spiritualizes the kingdom.

So, no, B.F., the view that Christ, at His return, will literally fulfill the O.T. prophecies by setting up His earthly Kingdom at His second advent is not at all new. However, your spiritualizing those prophecies and applying them to this church age is actually the newer view.

The rapture of the church is not a new teaching since it’s grounded in Scripture. Hence it goes back to the first century and is totally Apostolic. It was simply re-discovered once men went back to studying the Scriptures literally (a hermeneutics abandoned by the church for centuries).

 

[Philthy]

That salvation is gifted by God’s grace at the time of one’s faith in Christ is sooo explictly clear in those passages that only because of unbelief can one volitionally reject the lucidity of Paul’s teaching. It’s not that Paul is unclear but you simply reject it. And I do understand why.

Ultimately you need to believe this. And I do understand why.
MD:

To believe is something we do. It’s something I did. We know from Divine Revelation that the Father draws (Jn. 6:44), but nowhere does it say that God provides the faith or that faith is supernaturally imposed against one’s volition. Throughout the N.T. Scriptures to believe or not believe is presented as a free choice. There is your “free choice,” Phil: To believe or not believe. There are eternal benefits to the former, eternal consequences to the latter. It’s you choice.

Well this seems like progress. Belief is something that is a requirement for salvation, and it is something that we do, and it is a free choice that we make. And once we do it, we are saved by grace. Is this pretty much your position?

Sure it does, Phil. Grace is unmerited favor, and a gift is something acquired without any compensation on the part of the recipient. ** Any conditions attached would involve merit **and would be a wage, not a gift (see Rom. 4:4-5).

In my opinion, the fact that God loved us while we were still sinners and sent his son as atonement for our sins is the act of Grace involving no merit on our part. It is the foundation for salvation upon which everything else is built. Even if God then established some additional conditions - like faith - as a necessary condition in order for us to be saved, I would still say that grace remains a gift. Furthermore, even if God established conditions - like avoiding idolatry - as a necessary condition for inheriting the kingdom of God, I would still say that grace remains a gift. We disagree - and Im sure that is because my points are all illogical and outside the bounds of human reasoning and that, no doubt, is because I am in unbelief. And you know why.

There are several things Christ said that are not directly applicable during this church age. How many eyes have you gouged out, Phil?

None. My eyes dont cause me to sin, its what comes out from within me - from my heart - that causes me to sin. Now let me ask you a question: in which church age is God revealed as our Father?

As for the whole Galatians thing, Phil, Galatia was region and in it were several churches in it. Some had “fallen from grace” in that they adopted a false “gospel” of works.

Merely putting quotation marks around the term “fallen from grace” and then explaining why they had fallen does not quite cut it. It doesnt tell us what “fallen from grace” actually means, and that is the relevant issue MD. Most of us hindered by unbelief and with a working knowledge of the English language would assume that these people were in a state of grace(ie saved) and that they departed (ie fell) from that state of grace. That is the important concept in the context of this thread and in our discussion in particular because it dismantles your OSAS theology. You are not open to the concept of “falling” from a state of grace. Salvation is a “singular divine act”, as you say. Unfortunately for you, that means that in order to maintain your position you are going to have to construct a lucid argument explaining why Paul, the same author who expounds on grace throughout his epistles, chose to use the term “fallen from grace” for people who were actually in a state of grace, who could not fall from grace, but who could only merely have stumbled or been misled without falling from grace. Good luck with that!

 

[mpjw2]

I find it sad that one of my best friends who happens to be atheist will go to hell.
Shes such a beautiful person too, inside and outside.
I guess its just the way things are…

Mr. Sun unfortunatly you are right. I believe there are a lot of good people who died without believing in Jesus Christ and as a result are spending eternity in hell.

However, while your best friend is still breathing , there is still time up until the last breath she takes. Keep being a witness for Christ and keep praying.

Just to let you know I just said a prayer and will continue to do so for all the non believers of the world.

Mr. Sun …it might intrest you to know that it was an atheist turned christian whose testimony had an impact on my life in finding truth

God bless

Keep the faith

mpjw

 

[mpjw2]

Mr Sun

I find it sad that one of my best friends who happens to be atheist will go to hell. Shes such a beautiful person too, inside and outside.
I guess its just the way things are…

moondweller

You don’t know if that’s “just the way things are.” She could turn from her unbelief to belief. Speak to her about salvation through faith in Christ and continue to pray for her salvation. And since she’s one of your best friends, just keep loving her.

---

Excellent advice moondweller

 

[Philthy]

It is true, according to God’s Word, that no one is saved by works, no one is saved by living a good life or avoiding sins.One is saved by grace (God’s), through faith (in Jesus Christ). Upon faith in Christ the believer is gifted God’s righteousness (Rom. 3:24; 2 Cor. 5:21). The only righteousness God accepts (Phil. 3:9). Your reasoning is carnal, not spiritual.
What separates the believer from an unbeliever is not their sinlessness or piety, but their eternal identity (sheep vs. non-sheep). You’re under the erroneous teaching that it’s at the “final judgment” that your eternal destiny will be determined, where merit (works) will be a factor in that determination.

Interesting rant MD - especially towards the end - where instead of dealing with the topic at hand, you use the opportunity to simply attempt to discredit my points by discrediting me as “carnal, not spiritual” and as being the product of “erroneous teaching”. As Fr Larry Richards says, “Be a Man!” Is there any chance that you will actually get around to addressing my argument? If Pauls point in 1Cor6:11 were to reaffirm his teaching that salvation is by grace through faith, then he would NOT DISTINGUISH THE SAVED FROM THE UNSAVED BY THE SINS THEY COMMIT. Distinguishing the unsaved from the saved by the sins they commit sends the message that it is their BEHAVIOR which distinguishes them rather than FAITH. It would be exactly the OPPOSITE of the message of salvation by grace through faith alone, and exactly the opposite of the message that “no one is saved by living a good life or avoiding sins.” Yet that is exactly what you would like us to believe he intended to say. You apparently have no idea how ridiculous that position is considering just that one point alone. Its equally ridiculous to maintain - as you apparently do - that these believers who had saving faith in Christ didnt know that unsaved sinners don’t inherit the kingdom of God, and that Paul decided in the middle of a discussion about their failings to insert it. Truly preposterous, really. But this is where your strict adherence to OSAS theology leads your otherwise very able mind.
Paul said those things to the Corinthians because they were "wrong(ing) and defraud(ing) brothers and he goes on to say that the “greedy…thieves…and swindlers” will not inherit the kingdom of God, and he was warning them to repent otherwise they might lose the great gift of Heaven. Its as simple as that.

 

[moondweller]

Ultimately you need to believe this. And I do understand why.

I believe it because it’s clear, uncomplicated, Divine Revelation.

Well this seems like progress.

Progress?

Belief is something that is a requirement for salvation, and it is something that we do, and it is a free choice that we make.

Correct. But keep in mind that belief has an Object and faith has content.

And once we do it, we are saved by grace.

Correct. A one time act of God according to His grace. The one who believes is actually saved. Not by a process, but by a Divine act. He is saved (rescued) from all condemnation and gifted Divine justification and eternal life. If you want the Scripture verses on these go back and re-read my posts to you.

Is this pretty much your position?

Pretty much. Quite simple isn’t it? It’s men, in unbelief, who complicate it.

In my opinion, the fact that God loved us while we were still sinners and sent his son as atonement for our sins is the act of Grace involving no merit on our part.

Actually, it’s an act of “mercy” on God’s part. The forgiveness of God toward sinners is not an immediate act of grace; it is rather a judicial pardon of a debtor in view of the fact that the debt has been fully paid by Another (Col. 2:13-14). Because of the cross God is free to forgive all; and free to forgive perfectly.

It is the foundation for salvation upon which everything else is built.

It is the foundation for salvation, period.

Even if God then established some additional conditions - like faith - as a necessary condition in order for us to be saved, I would still say that grace remains a gift.

It’s not “grace” that’s the gift, Phil. Salvation is the gift - according to the Scriptures. Grace is the means by which God saves through faith.

Furthermore, even if God established conditions - like avoiding idolatry - as a necessary condition for inheriting the kingdom of God, I would still say that grace remains a gift.

“Grace” isn’t a gift. Salvation is the gift and it’s BY grace THROUGH faith. If it’s contingent upon avoiding idolatry then it’s based on works and Paul is quite clear on that: “not as a result of works.” Remember, I said belief has an Object and faith has content. True faith prevents idolatry.

We disagree - and Im sure that is because my points are all illogical and outside the bounds of human reasoning and that, no doubt, is because I am in unbelief. And you know why.

We disagree because your interpretation is based on a non-Biblical concept. The idea of a “state of grace.”

None. My eyes dont cause me to sin, its what comes out from within me - from my heart - that causes me to sin.

I didn’t know you were blind. I’m so sorry.

Now let me ask you a question: in which church age is God revealed as our Father?

There’s only one church age, the present one. There will be no other. It began at Pentecost with the advent of the Holy Spirit and will end at the time of the rapture of Christ’s church.

Merely putting quotation marks around the term “fallen from grace” and then explaining why they had fallen does not quite cut it. It doesnt tell us what “fallen from grace” actually means, and that is the relevant issue MD. Most of us hindered by unbelief and with a working knowledge of the English language would assume that these people were in a state of grace(ie saved) and that they departed (ie fell) from that state of grace.

“State of grace” is not a Biblical concept. Paul never used it, nor is it found in his letter to the Galatians on to which you inflict it.

That is the important concept in the context of this thread and in our discussion in particular because it dismantles your OSAS theology.

An argument based on a non-Biblical concept dismantles nothing. It’s too weak, it’s made of straw.

You are not open to the concept of “falling” from a state of grace.

Because it’s not a Biblical concept. It’s a Catholic theological concept. It’s found only in the inner recesses of the Vatican, not among the pages of Scripture.

Salvation is a “singular divine act”, as you say. Unfortunately for you, that means that in order to maintain your position you are going to have to construct a lucid argument explaining why Paul, the same author who expounds on grace throughout his epistles, chose to use the term “fallen from grace” for people who were actually in a state of grace, who could not fall from grace, but who could only merely have stumbled or been misled without falling from grace. Good luck with that!

Can you show me where Paul tells the Galatians that they have fallen from a “state of grace?” Right back at cha: “Good luck with that.”

 

[moondweller]

Interesting rant MD - especially towards the end - where instead of dealing with the topic at hand, you use the opportunity to simply attempt to discredit my points by discrediting me as “carnal, not spiritual” and as being the product of “erroneous teaching”. As Fr Larry Richards says, “Be a Man!” Is there any chance that you will actually get around to addressing my argument? If Pauls point in 1Cor6:11 were to reaffirm his teaching that salvation is by grace through faith, then he would NOT DISTINGUISH THE SAVED FROM THE UNSAVED BY THE SINS THEY COMMIT. Distinguishing the unsaved from the saved by the sins they commit sends the message that it is their BEHAVIOR which distinguishes them rather than FAITH. It would be exactly the OPPOSITE of the message of salvation by grace through faith alone, and exactly the opposite of the message that “no one is saved by living a good life or avoiding sins.” Yet that is exactly what you would like us to believe he intended to say.What distinguished the believers in 1 Cor. 6:11 from the unrighteous listed in vss. 9-10 (who won’t inherit the kingdom of God) is the fact that they’ve been WASHED, SANCTIFIED and JUSTIFIED (a past, completed act of God) in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of their God. A matter of Divine Revelation concerning them.

And although throughout his letter Paul chides them because of some of their behaviors, nevertheless he, at the beginning of the letter, addresses them (the believers) as “saints” “sanctified in Christ Jesus” (1 Cor. 1:2). In the Scriptures sainthood is not based on one’s demonstration of piety or great works, as it is in Catholicism, but one’s identity in Christ. Having been WASHED, SANCTIFIED and JUSTIFIED through faith in Him.

 

[Philthy]

What distinguished the believers in 1 Cor. 6:11 from the unrighteous listed in vss. 9-10 (who won’t inherit the kingdom of God) is the fact that they’ve been WASHED, SANCTIFIED and JUSTIFIED (a past, completed act of God) in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of their God. A matter of Divine Revelation concerning them.

I understand all of this.You have not moved one inch closer to explaining why Paul chooses to distinguish those who inherit the kingdom from those who do not by pointing to a list of sins that he latter are committing. To do so adds nothing but confusion if, in fact, his message is that inheriting the kingdom of God has everything to do with grace and faith alone and nothing to do with “how one lives their life” Until you can explain this very basic point which completely contradicts your notion of OSAS, your position remains untenable.

And although throughout his letter Paul chides them because of some of their behaviors, nevertheless he, at the beginning of the letter, addresses them (the believers) as “saints” “sanctified in Christ Jesus” (1 Cor. 1:2). In the Scriptures sainthood is not based on one’s demonstration of piety or great works, as it is in Catholicism, but one’s identity in Christ. Having been WASHED, SANCTIFIED and JUSTIFIED through faith in Him.

You still seem unable to come to grips with the fact that Paul doesnt merely “chide” them. He warns them and explains to them that - despite being saints washed sanctified and justified - that there is a consequence to their sins if they dont repent. That consequence is a loss of the inheritance in the kingdom of God.

 

[moondweller]

I understand all of this.

No, Phil, you demonstrate that you understand none of it. The believer is not at all identified with the “unrighteous.” In that they’re not identified as fornicators, idolaters, etc. They’re “SAINTS” (holy ones), having been WASHED (with Christ’s blood), SANCTIFIED (set apart in Christ), JUSTIFIED (reckoned righteous by God & made righteous in Christ). IOW, the believer has, upon belief in Christ, entered sainthood.Acts 10:15 “…What God has cleansed, no {longer} consider unholy.”

Acts 15:9 "…and He made no distinction between us (believing Jews) and them (believing Gentiles), cleansing their hearts by faith."Cleansing the believer is a, once for all, act of God.

You have not moved one inch closer to explaining why Paul chooses to distinguish those who inherit the kingdom from those who do not by pointing to a list of sins that he latter are committing. To do so adds nothing but confusion if, in fact, his message is that inheriting the kingdom of God has everything to do with grace and faith alone and nothing to do with “how one lives their life” Until you can explain this very basic point which completely contradicts your notion of OSAS, your position remains untenable.

Paul doesn’t point out a list of sins, he lists by example a list of people that are rendered “the unrighteous”: fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, etc. These are NOUNS, not verbs and adjectives. Collectively they’re the UNRIGHTEOUS!

Contrast them with the believers Paul was writing to in Corinth whom he identifies not among the “unrighteous,” but as SAINTS, who once were identified as among the “unrighteous” but having believed in Christ have been WASHED, SANCTIFIED and JUSTIFIED (made/reckoned righteous) in the name of Christ. Their identity as “saints” is eternal.

It’s so simple, Phil. But you can’t grasp this amazing grace of God because you insist on adhering to a “gospel” of works. Hence, divine grace makes absolutely no sense to you. I can’t help you there, my friend. Unless you unclench your fingers and drop your works, and turn to Christ simply by faith alone in what He has DONE for you, the whole concept of Divine grace, as revealed and taught by the Apostles in the N.T. Scriptures, will continue to escape you. I can’t make you believe it. That’s your free choice.

I’m not trying to convert you to any Protestant denomination. I’m just discussing with you what the Scriptures reveal about faith, salvation and the grace of God.

 

[Philthy]

No, Phil, you demonstrate that you understand none of it. The believer is not at all identified with the “unrighteous.” In that they’re not identified as fornicators, idolaters, etc. They’re “SAINTS” (holy ones), having been WASHED (with Christ’s blood), SANCTIFIED (set apart in Christ), JUSTIFIED (reckoned righteous by God & made righteous in Christ). IOW, the believer has, upon belief in Christ, entered sainthood…Paul doesn’t point out a list of sins, he lists by example a list of people that are rendered “the unrighteous”: fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, etc. These are NOUNS, not verbs and adjectives. Collectively they’re the UNRIGHTEOUS!

Well I have tried to understand your “simple” point several times. The problem with your point is that it makes no sense of the Scripture that we have before us. The simple fact of the matter is that Paul is writing a letter to believers who were engaged in cheating and defrauding other brothers. He specifically points this out. He then asks point blank, “Do you not realize the unrighteous will not enter the kingdom of Heaven?” He asks them that question because they were engaging in the sins of “greed, thievery, and swindling” which he specifically mentions as behaviors identified with those “who will not inherit the kingdom of God”. You have not provided a single reason - other than your imposed theology into the letter - to refute this simple fact. The fact that they are saints does not at all preclude the fact that they will be excluded from Heaven if they do not repent. That is where you continue to stall in your approach. You cant let go of the fact that if someone returns to an unrepentant life and squanders the inheritance they have been given, that they will actually lose it. Your repeated instance on my spiritual state, my spiritual blindness, my indoctrination and every other ad hominem you have offered simply doesnt fly. Your position, that he introduced this irrelevant comment about the unrighteous not entering the kingdom is, as I have said before, ridiculous and untenable. You have not offered a single reason as to why Paul would include this comment in the middle of this discourse with them about their sin. Not one.

Cleansing the believer is a, once for all, act of God…Their identity as “saints” is eternal.

These comments are your fabrications, repeatedly introduced into the discussion and completely at odds with what his letter actually says.

It’s so simple, Phil. But you can’t grasp this amazing grace of God because you insist on adhering to a “gospel” of works.

At that to the list of ad hominems you resort to when your arguments are insufficient.

I’m not trying to convert you to any Protestant denomination. I’m just discussing with you what the Scriptures reveal about faith, salvation and the grace of God.

I am grateful for your efforts and appreciate your sharing. I am also not trying to convert you - I trust that God has his own plans.

 

[moondweller]

Well I have tried to understand your “simple” point several times. The problem with your point is that it makes no sense of the Scripture that we have before us. The simple fact of the matter is that Paul is writing a letter to believers who were engaged in cheating and defrauding other brothers. He specifically points this out.What Paul does in that letter is take issue with brethren dragging brethren to court with lawsuits. And that before unbelievers! This he lets them know is not proper behavior among the saints, and especially not a testimony before the world (unbelievers):1 Cor 6:7 "Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded?"In his letters Paul corrects their behavior as SAINTS. Nowhere does he threaten their salvation. But rather we who have inherited the kingdom should not act as those who will not inherit the kingdom. That’s the point Paul was driving home to them in 1 Cor. 6:9-11. In the very next verse he writes:1 Cor 6:12 "All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything."And again in 1 Cor. 10:13:1 Cor 10:23-24 "All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify. Let no one seek his own {good,} but that of his neighbor."They were to engage in actions that were spiritually profitable for each other, the things that edify. IOW, they were to walk in the Spirit, with spiritual wisdom. Taking the brethren before the courts of unbelievers neither edifies nor demonstrates spiritual wisdom. Keep in mind, that church was brand new and the Corinthians, prior to their faith in Christ, were well known for their rather amiss behavior. They had a lot of spiritual growth before them.

Paul was correcting them, not threatening their salvation. That you get from your own theology and impose it upon the text. But rather Paul exhorts them to good and wise behavior by reminding them of who they are (in Christ) and their eternal redemption:1 Cor 6:20 For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body."The only way they could lose what they had was if God sold them back into spiritual darkness and bondage. But, says Paul to the believers at Rome:Rom 11:29 "…the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."He’s not going to teach the opposite to the Corinthians. Nor did he. Salvation is “a GIFT of God…,” hence, irrevocable.

 

[bona_fides_1]

You must turn to massive “spiritualization” of Scripture in order to come up with the scheme you proffer.
You can stick to your spiritualization of Scripture. Question: Once you began the spiritualization process where do you stop?

Massive spiritualization? Do you believe in your own doctrine of sola scriptura or not? Why is it that you can read your bible and have it teach you one thing but then you deny others their read of scripture and think that the Holy Spirit only speaks to you and not anyone else? You can’t have it both ways. You can’t just say “that’s spiritualization” as if that is bad. What do you mean by “Spiritualization”? Are you against the Holy Spirit ?

Also, you are completely wrong in thinking that God never said anything about the Gentiles in the OT. Paul was certainly not the first to reveal this! Mary & Joseph (1st Jewish Christians) heard it fulfilled (read Simeon’s prophecy in Luke 2:29-32 . Oh quite contraire, the OT has a lot to say about the Gentiles and so do other Jewish-Christians before Paul’s time! Go back and reread . God told us explicitly that He would set up Israel for glory and blessings for the purpose of bringing notice to Himself so that other nations would come to know God too. “Have you not heard that salvation is from the Jews” (John 4:22)? How can Jesus speak this to a Samaritan woman (a paganized ex-Jew) so matter of factly if it was not common knowledge that salvation was offered to all nations?

God always pre-announces His works to His holy people & servants. If what you say is true about the Christian Church just popping up out of nowhere unannounced then this would be a deviation from what we know of God’s ways. God takes delight in revealing His Plans BEFORE they happen so that men will glory in that and be awestruck so they will come to further reverence the Lord and believe more firmly that there is no other God but The Lord.

Amos 3:7 The Lord promised, “Surely the Sovereign Lord does nothing without revealing His plan to His servants the prophets.”

Deuteronomy 4:5-8 reads: “See, I have taught you decrees and laws as the LORD my God commanded me, so that you may follow them in the land you are entering to take possession of it. Observe them carefully, for this will show your wisdom and understanding to the nations, who will hear about all these decrees and say, "Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.” What other nation is so great as to have their gods near them the way the LORD our God is near us whenever we pray to him? And what other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and laws as this body of laws I am setting before you today?"

The Torah teaches that the paths for non-Jews to have their place in the World To Come is by following the paths of the Noahide, being a Righteous Gentile.

The Seven Noahide Laws
Belief in God
Respect God & Praise Him
Respect Human Life
Respect The Family
Respect Human Beings
Have a Judicial System
Respect all Creatures

Genesis 12:2-3
I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.”

Isaiah 42:5-9
This is what God the LORD says— he who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and all that comes out of it, who gives breath to its people, and life to those who walk on it:

“I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles, to open eyes that are blind, to free captives from prison and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.

“I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols. See, the former things have taken place, and new things I declare; before they spring into being I announce them to you.”

Isaiah 43:12-13
I have revealed and saved and proclaimed— I, and not some foreign god among you. You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “that I am God. Yes, and from ancient days I am he. No one can deliver out of my hand. When I act, who can reverse it?”

Isaiah 49:1-4
Listen to me, you islands;** hear this, you distant nations**: Before I was born the LORD called me; from my birth he has made mention of my name. He made my mouth like a sharpened sword, in the shadow of his hand he hid me; he made me into a polished arrow and concealed me in his quiver. He said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will display my splendor.” But I said, “I have labored to no purpose; I have spent my strength in vain and for nothing. Yet what is due me is in the LORD’s hand, and my reward is with my God.”

[continued]
​

BF

 

[bona_fides_1]

Isaiah 49:5-6
And now the LORD says— He who formed me in the womb to be His servant to bring Jacob back to him and gather Israel to himself, for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD and my God has been my strength. He says: “It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth.”

Hosea 2:23
I will plant her for myself in the land; I will show my love to the one I called ‘Not my loved one.’ I will say to those called ‘Not my people,’ ‘You are my people’; and they will say, ‘You are my God.’"

Luke 2:29-32
Sovereign Lord, as you have promised, you now dismiss your servant in peace. For my eyes have seen your salvation, which you have prepared in the sight of all people, a light for revelation to the Gentiles and for glory to your people Israel.”

Question for you - once you start teaching your own gospel outside of the apostolic teaching tradition of the Catholic Church where do you stop at attempting to divide scripture according to one’s own personal ideas? Remember that in Protestant theology man is utterly fallen and depraved. How do you escape your own depravity to know that what you read is not just self-deception and wishful easy-believism thinking? How do you know you are not just creating a sugar-coated salvation pill to swallow to make yourself “feel good”?

BF

 

[bona_fides_1]

Nope, no contradictions. He physically sets foot on this earth at His second advent, but first He meets His church/bride in the air.

How does the believer of this church age get to heaven BODILY? Via the rapture. When the dead in Christ will rise first and we who remain will not experience death but be changed in the twinkling of an eye; and this perishable (body) will put on the imperishable, and this mortal (body) will put on immortality. And in glorified bodies we will return with Him and rule with Him for a thousand years. The O.T. prophets didn’t describe heaven in their prophecies, they described a glorious kingdom right here on this earth when Messiah rules in righteousness from Jerusalem. :extrahappy:

You can’t have it both ways MD. Either the elect are raptured into heaven and stay there or they are raptured into heaven and then return to earth. Why would anyone want to leave heaven to come back to earth and how do they do that? Are they raptured back to earth in mass?

BF

 

[Philthy]

What Paul does in that letter is take issue with brethren dragging brethren to court with lawsuits. And that before unbelievers! This he lets them know is not proper behavior among the saints, and especially not a testimony before the world (unbelievers):

The beginning of the letter addresses his dismay that they bring their cases before unbelievers. It then transitions to his dismay that they are engaged in defrauding brothers, and the verses which follow, relate to that charge, not the former.

In his letters Paul corrects their behavior as SAINTS. Nowhere does he threaten their salvation.

I never said he did. What I have said repeatedly is that he warns them of losing their inheritance in the kingdom of God.

But rather we who have inherited the kingdom should not act as those who will not inherit the kingdom. That’s the point Paul was driving home

No it isnt. His point is exactly what he says. “the greedy, thieves, swindlers” - the very sins that the Corinthians were engaged in, the very sin he articulates about them engaging in - “the greedy, thieves, swindlers” will not inherit the kingdom of God. That is what he says. And of course its true to say that believers shouldnt behave like that - but that is not the whole truth MD.

to them in 1 Cor. 6:9-11. In the very next verse he writes:1 Cor 6:12 "All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything."And again in 1 Cor. 10:13:1 Cor 10:23-24 “All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify. Let no one seek his own {good,} but that of his neighbor.”

None of these verses speak directly regarding salvation or inheriting the kingdom of God and as such do not obviate the clear texts that do.

Paul was correcting them, not threatening their salvation. That you get from your own theology and impose it upon the text.

No, MD, it is you who continually imposes your “salvation and inheriting the kingdom of God are the same thing”. I have been very careful to stick to what Paul says - that “the greedy, thieves and swindlers” will not inherit the kingdom of God. That is what we are talking about: saved individuals forfeiting their inheritance in the kingdom of God.

[QUOTERom 11:29 "…the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."]
He’s not going to teach the opposite to the Corinthians. Nor did he. Salvation is “a GIFT of God…,” hence, irrevocable.
Heaven is a gift of God as well, and they havent been given it yet. You continue to stumble on your inability to distinguish between “salvation” and “heaven”.
In the end, your attempt to claim that Paul isnt talking about the “believers” when he lists those sins in 1 Corinthians is easily refuted. We dont need to run to Romans or other verses which dont actually use the term “inherit the kingdom of God” and extrapolate, with indirect proofs and logic, in an attempt to prove the point the way you do with your theology. We need go no further than the other letters where he has almost the same conversation. I’ll Scripture speak for itself:
Eph 5:3,5 But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints…For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. * Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

Everyone who is covetous - believer or not, saint or not - has no inheritance in the kingdom of God.

 

[bona_fides_1]

“Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!” (Jn. 1:29b).

1 Pet 2:24 “…and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.”

2 Cor 5:21 “He made Him who knew no sin {to be} sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”

In 2 Cor 5:21 we see that our sins were imputed to Christ, and upon belief in Him God’s righteousness is imputed to us.Salvation is “by grace through faith” - but not everyone believes.

Notice in 2 Peter 2:24 the operative word is “MIGHT” as is we might die to sin - which means sin no more! This does NOT exempt one from sinning and the language is conditional so there is NO guarantee of salvation in any sense implied here.

Same thing in 2 Cor 5:21 - MIGHT become the righteousness. In other words if we cooperate with grace we may becomes the righteousness of God that so few were able to do by law! Grace gives us the supernatural power TO OBEY THE LAW NOT SKIRT THE LAW! How can you miss such a fundamental teaching? Every “jot & tittle of the law in no wise will pass from the law, till all be fulfilled”. To nullify the law would be to discount the saving Glory of Christ! All of the law MUST be accounted for on your day of judgement MD. If you have a single unrepented grave sin you are toast. It is only by grace that any of us can turn away from sin since the nature of sin is so vile that is corrupts our will and weakens our resolve. Grace “HEALS US” (1 Peter 2:24 - by His wounds we are healed). Know the audience that the apostles were speaking to - they were speaking only to believers and those seeking to believe. They were not speaking to non-believers and those who were committed anti-Christians.

Indeed “Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world”. ALL sin will be removed at the 2nd comming when Christ comes as just judge to throw the wicked into hell and bless those who sanctified and justified themselves in the blood of the lamb by EATING WHAT THEY BELIEVED (the pascal lamb viz Eucharist just as the Jews did to escape the angel of death at passover).

If all sin was imputed to Christ as you say then God could destroy hell and never send another soul there. Sorry you can’t have it both ways. The passage was speaking to believers. Christ over paid for our debt of sin but those who do not believe in Christ and beleive in all he said (including the necessity to obey him and his disciples) will go to hell because their sins are IMPUTED to the unrepentant sinner who blasphemed the Holy Spirit for NOT holding such a sacred and precious gift in any regard and doubting God’s ability to save us.

I don’t see where the Scriptures teach of “allocated graces” (installments) for the forgiveness of sins and salvation.

All I’m doing is sharing with you what our Scriptures communicate to us.

Christ indeed bore the penalty of all the sins of all humanity on the cross but as a matter of Divine Justice God will not impute the sins of those who reject Christ’s offering to His Son - only to those who beleive and obey. In this manner no man can claim that God destined anyone to hell since the merit was won for ALL to be saved. Christ overpaid the debt account for sin so to speak with the full knowledge that many men would reject Him anyway. For that reason God will actually intensify the penalty in hell for those who explicitly spurned the preciousness of this Divine gift by letting the divine blood spill unused at their feet on the dust from which they came from rather than drinking it in and cleansing their soul. The same fate is for those who fall away from the truth and never again repent - these will be eternally cursed as dogs who return to their own vomit (Proverbs 26:11; 2 Peter 2:22).

Allocated grace is exemplified in many scripture verses that relate to the 7 sacraments of Christ offered through His Church - Baptism, Confirmation, Communion, Repentance, Holy Orders, Marriage, Last Rites. There are hundreds of verses that relate to this. You can read them all here under the area “The Sacraments”: scripturecatholic.com/

Know too that because of the profound merits won on the cross the interior helps of the Holy Spirit are now at work in all people and all men are drawn toward Christ. No one will die without having an opportunity to know Christ in some manner and decide for or against Him. God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tm 2:4). “The desire for God is written in the human heart by God - the author of all Life, because man is created by God and for God; and God never ceases to draw man to himself” (CCC 27). Faith, through the free gift of grace, is man’s response to God’s call. The call is God’s grace - one can not have faith except by God. The person who does not respond to the call is lost. Likewise the person who responds but later falls away and falls into grave sin and dies unrepentant is also lost.

What you are “doing” is a WORK MD - and the work is sewing seeds of confusion with erroneous interpretation of scripture reading. No one gains any merit by sowing weeds in God’s field! Why are you laboring to teach us a new gospel MD if you believe that one must “just believe”? Save your perspiration MD since your works are not necessary for your own salvation according to your own theology.

BF

 

[moondweller]

You can’t have it both ways MD. Either the elect are raptured into heaven and stay there or they are raptured into heaven and then return to earth.

Really, BF? Who made you THE authority? According to the Scriptures, they are raptured, meet the Lord in the air, return to heaven with Him, and then, an undisclosed amount of time later, return to this earth with Him.

Why would anyone want to leave heaven to come back to earth

To be where Christ is. Read what it says about the “raptured” in 1 Thess.:1 Thess 4:17 "Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord."So wherever the Lord is, we are. If He’s in heaven, then we are too. When He returns to this earth to set up His Messianic Kingdom (as prophesied by the ancient Hebrew prophets), then we come with Him, because we shall always be with Him.

and how do they do that? Are they raptured back to earth in mass?

The “rapture” entails the bodily resurrection and translation of the saints during this church age. It’s a one time event (Phil. 3:20-21). So your question is quite silly, indeed. We come back the same way Christ does. Care to join us?
:tiphat: