How To Get To Heaven

[Gregory]

Hi, I’m new to this thread. I’ve been trying to read all of them. There’s a lot of excellent points made that xfro avoided and refused to comment on. I was bummed. Anyways, here’s a question for you xfro:

If you have unconfessed sins in your life, AND you are already saved, you will still go to heaven when you die, but you will be out of fellowship with God until you confess those sins to HIM.

and by that are you somehow referring to Purgatory?

 

[JimG]

Hi, I’m new to this thread. I’ve been trying to read all of them. There’s a lot of excellent points made that xfro avoided and refused to comment on. I was bummed. Anyways, here’s a question for you xfro:

and by that are you somehow referring to Purgatory?

It sounds like different words meaning the same thing: To Xfro it’s “saved, but out of fellowship with God.” [Saved person has to get ‘back into fellowship’ with God.] Catholics have a word for that–purgatory. But with a good deal more theology behind it.

 

[Philthy]

It sounds like different words meaning the same thing: To Xfro it’s “saved, but out of fellowship with God.” [Saved person has to get ‘back into fellowship’ with God.] Catholics have a word for that–purgatory. But with a good deal more theology behind it.

That would be the logical, ecumenical conclusion. The problem, however, is that when you push those who toss out terms like “out of fellowship with God” and attempt to discuss the eternal consequences of being out of fellowship they simply cannot bring themselves to contradict their beloved OSAS doctrine, and simply render the concept of being “out of fellowship with God” to be a consequence which plays out during our earthly life only. Such a notion is entirely unscriptural and goes against what we see all around us: people who sin often derive great pleasure from it, and depending upon the particular sin in question, do not suffer any earthly consequence at all. This is the exact scenario described in the discussion with the rich man who after being told “you were comforted during your life” while the beggar was not. He even wishes to warn his brothers regarding their need to repent from sin while they are still alive. Obviously they did not suffer on earth from their sinful lives. This eliminates the Scriptural reasonableness of arguing such a position for the concept of “being out of fellowship” with God.
The adherence to OSAS **precludes **any meaningful consequence to sin for the OSAS adherent - despite all the ambiguous, feel good talk of losing fellowship with God. In the end the alleged consequences are meaningless…

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

It sounds like different words meaning the same thing: To Xfro it’s “saved, but out of fellowship with God.” [Saved person has to get ‘back into fellowship’ with God.] Catholics have a word for that–purgatory. But with a good deal more theology behind it.

Dear Jim,

Some of the questions on here have been dealt with by me time and time again, yet the SAME exact person still keeps bringing up the same exact stuff that they had already been proven wrong on. Another problem is that I am bombarded by questions here that I cannot answer all of them. I do have other ministries that I am involved in and there just aren’t enough hours in the day to devote to this site constantly. When I first came on this thread, I kept up with the questions and it wore me down to the nub. If you have any questions, please feel free to pm me and I will be more than glad to answer them for you. Purgatory is not meantioned in the bible. It is one of the many false teachings of the catholic church. The standard that Christians are to live by is God’s word, ( the bible) and my beliefs are based upon that. Many catholics base their beliefs on their church, their priests, traditions, feelings and signs. They have a warped view of salvation and many other teachings because they frankly don’t believe God’s word. They tend to lean a few stray passages, while ignoring the rest of what the bible says about it.

 

[guanophore]

When I first came on this thread, I kept up with the questions and it wore me down to the nub.

This is great! Good things can grow out of a nub!

  Purgatory is not meantioned in the bible.

Apparently, if one is reading with theological blinders on, one can miss all kinds of things! The Mormons miss that Jesus is God!

It is one of the many false teachings of the catholic church.

I am glad that you are here on the forum, xfrodobagginsx. If you stay here, you may learn more about your family history. You may learn that none of the teachings of the Catholic Church contradict the Bible. This is because the Catholic Church produced the Bible.

The standard that Christians are to live by is God's word, ( the bible) and my beliefs are based upon that.

This is interesting. Where did you get this doctrine? Catholics believe that we are to live by God’s Word, but we believe that the Word Was God, and the Word was made Man, and Jesus is the Word.

Many catholics base their beliefs on their church, their priests, traditions, feelings and signs.

I think you have a misunderstanding of Catholic teachings, xfrodobagginsx. Catholic teaching is based upon the teaching of Jesus and His Apostles.

They have a warped view of salvation and many other teachings because they frankly don’t believe God’s word.

I will agree that persons who base their beliefs on feelings and signs are definitely suffering a warped view of salvation. As far a belief in God’s word, it seems to me that, since the New Testament was written by, for, and about Catholics, it would be hard to separate it’s contents from the Church teachings.

They tend to lean a few stray passages, while ignoring the rest of what the bible says about it.

I am sure this belongs on another thread, but I hope you will start one, because I am very curious about what you mean by this.

 

[Gregory]

The standard that Christians are to live by is God’s word, ( the bible) and my beliefs are based upon that. Many catholics base their beliefs on their church, their priests, traditions, feelings and signs. They have a warped view of salvation and many other teachings because they frankly don’t believe God’s word. They tend to lean a few stray passages, while ignoring the rest of what the bible says about it.

For one thing, the gospels weren’t written down until after Christ died on the cross. What would you say about the salvation of those who didn’t have the bible (with the new testament) to carry around because there was no new testament in written form (yet). Everything was passed by word of mouth including the traditions passed on by the Apostles. Traditions can be a really good thing too because if its worked in the past, carefully tested, and ,for instance, turns out to be pleasing to God, then why not repeat it over and over again? That would be an example of following a Tradition set by people before you. Xfro, What could you say is wrong with that? Tradition doesn’t seem to be a bad thing here.

 

[Gamera]

Dear Jim,

Some of the questions on here have been dealt with by me time and time again, yet the SAME exact person still keeps bringing up the same exact stuff that they had already been proven wrong on. Another problem is that I am bombarded by questions here that I cannot answer all of them. I do have other ministries that I am involved in and there just aren’t enough hours in the day to devote to this site constantly. When I first came on this thread, I kept up with the questions and it wore me down to the nub. If you have any questions, please feel free to pm me and I will be more than glad to answer them for you. Purgatory is not meantioned in the bible. It is one of the many false teachings of the catholic church. The standard that Christians are to live by is God’s word, ( the bible) and my beliefs are based upon that. Many catholics base their beliefs on their church, their priests, traditions, feelings and signs. They have a warped view of salvation and many other teachings because they frankly don’t believe God’s word. They tend to lean a few stray passages, while ignoring the rest of what the bible says about it.

You shouldn’t have to devote overwhelming amounts of time to answering billions of questions. I’ll agree with you there – I’ve been in the same position on Protestant boards and a person can only stand so much.

Of course, you did start this thread. Since your thread title was “How to get to heaven,” it’s understandable that people ask the source of your proposed answer, “accept Jesus as savior.” Because the Bible doesn’t contain that answer. On the contrary, the Bible contains a different answer : when the rich man asked “What must one do to enter eternal life?,” Jesus answered, “If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” (Matt 19:16-17).

Your answer is different than Jesus’ answer. So no, you shouldn’t have to answer endless questions, but since you posed the question of “How to get to heaven,” and your answer contradicts Jesus’ words recorded in the Bible, I do think you should at least explain where you get your answer from.

 

[EHRAM]

Dear Jim,

Some of the questions on here have been dealt with by me time and time again, yet the SAME exact person still keeps bringing up the same exact stuff that they had already been proven wrong on. Another problem is that I am bombarded by questions here that I cannot answer all of them. I do have other ministries that I am involved in and there just aren’t enough hours in the day to devote to this site constantly. When I first came on this thread, I kept up with the questions and it wore me down to the nub. If you have any questions, please feel free to pm me and I will be more than glad to answer them for you. Purgatory is not meantioned in the bible. It is one of the many false teachings of the catholic church. The standard that Christians are to live by is God’s word, ( the bible) and my beliefs are based upon that. Many catholics base their beliefs on their church, their priests, traditions, feelings and signs. They have a warped view of salvation and many other teachings because they frankly don’t believe God’s word. They tend to lean a few stray passages, while ignoring the rest of what the bible says about it.

Purgatory is not mentioned explicitly in the Bible. Neither is the Trinity. Both can be deduced from the Bible.

The Bible is based on the Tradition of the Catholic Church, not vice versa. The Church is the Mystical Body of Christ. So if we Catholics are basing our beliefs on the Tradition and doctrine of the Church, it is the same as basing our belief’s on the teachings of Jesus Himself, who gave those teachings to the original Apostles who passed them to others who passed them on through the centuries to us. St. Paul, in writing to Timothy (1 Ti 3:15), referred to the Church as the “pillar and bulwark [or foundation] of the truth.” St. Paul also advised the Thessalonians (2 Th 2:15) to “hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours” and he praised the Corinthians for holding fast to the traditions they were taught (1 Cor 11:2). Sacred Scripture and Tradition support each other and each supports the importance of the other. They are not adversaries but partners.

Actually, Catholics DO believe God’s Word, and we believe in God’s Word (see John 1). We also believe that God was the author of Sacred Scripture, and, as St. Jerome said, “ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ.” We don’t pick and choose some verses and ignore others. If two verses say different things, they must both be true.

When I was Protestant, I was puzzled by some verses that did not seem to fit into the theology I was taught. When I became Catholic, I realized that those verses were well explained by the Catholic Church. Now I see Protestant theology as like a jigsaw puzzle with many of the pieces missing. Someone tries to fit them all together to make a coherent picture, but there are gaps, and there are some places where pieces that don’t really fit have been forced together. Catholic teaching is very different. All the pieces fit together to form a coherent and beautiful picture.

Frodo, I think you came to this site thinking that you would save people from the Catholic Church, not realizing that you would encounter so many people who truly love the Catholic Church and are able and willing to defend their faith and who would like to welcome you into the Catholic Church. In many ways you are already close to us. It is obvious that you love God very much and want to serve Him. You also want others to come to salvation and a knowledge of the Truth. And you know so much of Sacred Scripture already. If today you hear God’s voice, [perhaps speaking through His servants on this site], harden not your heart. (see Psalm 95)

 

[KathleenElsie]

Purgatory is not mentioned explicitly in the Bible. Neither is the Trinity. Both can be deduced from the Bible.

The Bible is based on the Tradition of the Catholic Church, not vice versa. The Church is the Mystical Body of Christ. So if we Catholics are basing our beliefs on the Tradition and doctrine of the Church, it is the same as basing our belief’s on the teachings of Jesus Himself, who gave those teachings to the original Apostles who passed them to others who passed them on through the centuries to us. St. Paul, in writing to Timothy (1 Ti 3:15), referred to the Church as the “pillar and bulwark [or foundation] of the truth.” St. Paul also advised the Thessalonians (2 Th 2:15) to “hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours” and he praised the Corinthians for holding fast to the traditions they were taught (1 Cor 11:2). Sacred Scripture and Tradition support each other and each supports the importance of the other. They are not adversaries but partners.

Actually, Catholics DO believe God’s Word, and we believe in God’s Word (see John 1). We also believe that God was the author of Sacred Scripture, and, as St. Jerome said, “ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ.” We don’t pick and choose some verses and ignore others. If two verses say different things, they must both be true.

When I was Protestant, I was puzzled by some verses that did not seem to fit into the theology I was taught. When I became Catholic, I realized that those verses were well explained by the Catholic Church. Now I see Protestant theology as like a jigsaw puzzle with many of the pieces missing. Someone tries to fit them all together to make a coherent picture, but there are gaps, and there are some places where pieces that don’t really fit have been forced together. Catholic teaching is very different. All the pieces fit together to form a coherent and beautiful picture.

Frodo, I think you came to this site thinking that you would save people from the Catholic Church, not realizing that you would encounter so many people who truly love the Catholic Church and are able and willing to defend their faith and who would like to welcome you into the Catholic Church. In many ways you are already close to us. It is obvious that you love God very much and want to serve Him. You also want others to come to salvation and a knowledge of the Truth. And you know so much of Sacred Scripture already. If today you hear God’s voice, [perhaps speaking through His servants on this site], harden not your heart. (see Psalm 95)

In the case of these jigsaws it reminded me of when my children or grandchildren forced the pieces to fit. They even went as far as to carve off some of the sides so they fit. Made for some funny looking pictures IMHO. To me this is what Protestants tend to do. Carve off what they find does not fit.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

You shouldn’t have to devote overwhelming amounts of time to answering billions of questions. I’ll agree with you there – I’ve been in the same position on Protestant boards and a person can only stand so much.

**Thank you. I will have to agree with you on this one **

Of course, you did start this thread. Since your thread title was “How to get to heaven,” it’s understandable that people ask the source of your proposed answer, “accept Jesus as savior.” Because the Bible doesn’t contain that answer. On the contrary, the Bible contains a different answer : when the rich man asked “What must one do to enter eternal life?,” Jesus answered, “If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” (Matt 19:16-17).

**Here is where we part. Jesus said that to that particular man, in order to prove to him that he wasn’t perfect. He lied and said that all those he had kept from his youth. What did Jesus say after that? One thing you lack…than he told him to sell all that he had, and give it to the poor. The point wasn’t about the commandments getting him into heaven. It was about giving your life to Jesus. Need furthor proof? Look here:

It’s the same thing, give your life to Jesus, by accepting Him alone as Lord and Savior:

1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

It’s the same thing, give your life to Jesus:

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

It’s the same thing again, believe on Jesus Christ alone for salvation:

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Again:

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Again:

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Again:

Ac 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Conclusion: As usual I could go on and on and on, but the point is that the overwhelming amount of verses strickly say that it’s through Jesus Christ alone that we are saved, yet you go back to a few stray verses to build doctrine. That verse when examined and compared with the rest of scripture and things that Jesus Christ said, clearly is there to demonstrate to the guy that he is NOT perfect and is in need of a Savior. Unfortunately for the guy, he didn’t accept Jesus Christ because he didn’t want to give anything up.**

Your answer is different than Jesus’ answer. So no, you shouldn’t have to answer endless questions, but since you posed the question of “How to get to heaven,” and your answer contradicts Jesus’ words recorded in the Bible, I do think you should at least explain where you get your answer from.

No, my answer is consistent with Jesus’s answer. What do you have to say regarding all of the other verses I listed, plus the dozens and dozens more, verses your 5 or 6 verses that you use?

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

Purgatory is not mentioned explicitly in the Bible. Neither is the Trinity. Both can be deduced from the Bible.

But there are verses that support the trinity. There is nothing to support a belief in purgatory. That’s the difference.

The Bible is based on the Tradition of the Catholic Church, not vice versa.

Wrong. The bible was written BEFORE there was a catholic church, so that’s impossible. The Catholic church was started by constantine. What he did was mix Christianity with peganism. That’s why they have all of the false god’s in their church.

The Church is the Mystical Body of Christ. So if we Catholics are basing our beliefs on the Tradition and doctrine of the Church, it is the same as basing our belief’s on the teachings of Jesus Himself, who gave those teachings to the original Apostles who passed them to others who passed them on through the centuries to us. St. Paul, in writing to Timothy (1 Ti 3:15), referred to the Church as the “pillar and bulwark [or foundation] of the truth.” St. Paul also advised the Thessalonians (2 Th 2:15) to “hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours” and he praised the Corinthians for holding fast to the traditions they were taught (1 Cor 11:2). Sacred Scripture and Tradition support each other and each supports the importance of the other. They are not adversaries but partners.

**Jesus Christ is the boss, NOT the church. What He says, goes. The word of God supercedes anything a church, person, or an angel of heaven says.

Ga 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.**

Actually, Catholics DO believe God’s Word, and we believe in God’s Word (see John 1). We also believe that God was the author of Sacred Scripture, and, as St. Jerome said, “ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ.” We don’t pick and choose some verses and ignore others. If two verses say different things, they must both be true.

**You must compare scripture with scripture.

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.**

…Someone tries to fit them all together to make a coherent picture, but there are gaps, and there are some places where pieces that don’t really fit have been forced together. Catholic teaching is very different. All the pieces fit together to form a coherent and beautiful picture.

**…But do they form the truth? I think not. B]

Frodo, I think you came to this site thinking that you would save people from the Catholic Church, not realizing that you would encounter so many people who truly love the Catholic Church and are able and willing to defend their faith and who would like to welcome you into the Catholic Church. In many ways you are already close to us. It is obvious that you love God very much and want to serve Him. You also want others to come to salvation and a knowledge of the Truth. And you know so much of Sacred Scripture already. If today you hear God’s voice, [perhaps speaking through His servants on this site], harden not your heart. (see Psalm 95)** **Many have said the prayer to God from their hearts, nearly 50% of them. My goal isn’t really to worry about which church they choose, although I believe the Catholic church to be corrupt. My goal is to preach the gospel, which many catholics can’t seem to separate from their church. The gospel has NOTHING to do with a church, baptism, good deeds, or ritual. It is about accepting into your heart and turning to Jesus Christ and what He did already on the cross to pay for your sins.

If we could be good enough on our own to get to heaven, then Christ Jesus died in vain.

Ga 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

The law is the KNOWLEDGE of sin, but NOT the remedy.

Ro 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Works of righteousness DO NOT save, they are merely a product OF salvation:

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
**

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

In the case of these jigsaws it reminded me of when my children or grandchildren forced the pieces to fit. They even went as far as to carve off some of the sides so they fit. Made for some funny looking pictures IMHO. To me this is what Protestants tend to do. Carve off what they find does not fit.

That’s not the way I see it. I see the catholics keeping a very select few of the pieces 5% that they like best and then throwing away the other 95% of the pieces that don’t fit the puzzle the way they like.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

That’s not the way I see it. I see the catholics keeping a very select few of the pieces 5% that they like best and then throwing away the other 95% of the pieces that don’t fit the puzzle the way they like.

If the Catholic Church was really the way you see it, I could understand that. But you have proven every time you say something about the Catholic faith that you really don’t know what the Church really teaches, and your trying to argue with members of a “church” that exists only in your imagination. The Catholic Church was NOT started by Constantine - that’s a lie straight from a Chick Tract. The Catholic Church uses the WHOLE Bible. To say that Catholics only use 5% and ignore 95% is a good demonstration of how little you do understand about the Catholic faith.

I totally agree with the Truth of every single verse you posted. I have to disagree with your interpretation of those verses.

“There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church—which is, of course, quite a different thing… It follows then that the hatred of the millions is directed against error and not against truth. As a matter of fact, if we Catholics believed all of the untruths and lies which were said against the Church, we probably would hate the Church a thousand times more than they do.” - Bishop Fulton Sheen

 

[Church_Militant]

Dear Jim,

Some of the questions on here have been dealt with by me time and time again, yet the SAME exact person still keeps bringing up the same exact stuff that they had already been proven wrong on.

Not addressed to me but with a high probability that this is speaking about me, I’ll respond.

Another problem is that I am bombarded by questions here that I cannot answer all of them. I do have other ministries that I am involved in and there just aren’t enough hours in the day to devote to this site constantly. When I first came on this thread, I kept up with the questions and it wore me down to the nub.

Yeah, xFBx is pretty easy to track all over the net since he uses the same name and pretty much uses the same opening post & poll in every forum he goes to, often being banned outright thereafter. CAF is far more tolerant than even many of the secular forums.

Apparently he considers himself something of an internet evangelist seeking converts.

I believe that his frustration here at CAF is due to several reasons:

1. He’s “preaching to the choir” in that faithful Catholics are indeed Christians and the Catholic Church a Christian church.
2. He did not expect, and is not really equipped to deal with Biblically knowledgeable Catholics who point out the inconsistencies in his theology.
3. CAF has a greater number of the kind of Catholics mentioned in point two above, and therefore he feels overwhelmed, (worn down to a nub) by the fact that so many posts call for a response that he cannot adequately answer.

If you have any questions, please feel free to pm me and I will be more than glad to answer them for you.

Funny… I offered him the same sort of option and he never even answered my PM. Wonder why that is?

Purgatory is not meantioned in the bible. It is one of the many false teachings of the catholic church.

This of course is completely untrue as most of us know. Biblical and Jewish Traditional Beliefs About Purgatory

It is anything but a false teaching. It is an implied teaching in scripture in the same way that the trinity is not mentioned in the scripture and yet is implied, understood, and accepted by almost all who call themselves Christian.

The standard that Christians are to live by is God’s word, ( the bible) and my beliefs are based upon that.

Because he espouses the errant doctrine of Sola Scriptura, which, as has been discussed many times is not taught by the Word of God, but by the errant interpretations and teachings of men within the last 500 years.

Many catholics base their beliefs on their church, their priests, traditions, feelings and signs.

There may be some, but this is just a rash generalization. Do any of you fit this bill? I certainly do not.

They have a warped view of salvation and many other teachings because they frankly don’t believe God’s word. They tend to lean a few stray passages, while ignoring the rest of what the bible says about it.

Restatement of his own rhetoric as if it is factual, ignoring that I and many other faithful & knowledgeable Catholics have shown from the literal Word of God that xFBx’s “gospel” is different from the one the New Testament and the Catholic Church teaches, which is summed up here. How Is A Catholic Saved?

 

[Church_Militant]

**Thank you. I will have to agree with you on this one **

Here is where we part. Jesus said that to that particular man, in order to prove to him that he wasn’t perfect. He lied and said that all those he had kept from his youth. What did Jesus say after that? One thing you lack…than he told him to sell all that he had, and give it to the poor. The point wasn’t about the commandments getting him into heaven. It was about giving your life to Jesus. Need furthor proof? Look here:

It’s the same thing, give your life to Jesus, by accepting Him alone as Lord and Savior:

1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.Where does anything in that passage even imply that the young man was lying? Let’s look at it in context.
[16] And behold, one came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?”
[17] And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”
[18] He said to him, “Which?” And Jesus said, “You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,
[19] Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
[20] The young man said to him, “All these I have observed; what do I still lack?”
[21] Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”
[22] When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions.
[23] And Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
[24] Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
[25] When the disciples heard this they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”

I don’t see anything that supports your teaching concerning this passage. If anything I see this as Our Lord pushing him for a total commitment.

As for 1st John 5:12, all a faithful Catholic will say to that is We believe every word of what that verse says!

It’s the same thing, give your life to Jesus:

Joh 14:6
It’s the same thing again, believe on Jesus Christ alone for salvation:

Joh 3:36
Again:

Joh 3:15-16
Again:

Ac 10:43

“Again”: All a faithful Catholic will say to that is We believe every word of what those verses say!

Conclusion: As usual I could go on and on and on, but the point is that the overwhelming amount of verses strickly say that it’s through Jesus Christ alone that we are saved, yet you go back to a few stray verses to build doctrine.

Yeah, and I’m pretty sure that you will. Ignoring (Again) the fact that the Catholic Church teaches that very same thing and has for the entirety of its 2,000 year history.

That verse when examined and compared with the rest of scripture and things that Jesus Christ said, clearly is there to demonstrate to the guy that he is NOT perfect and is in need of a Savior.

Nowhere in that passage does the guy even imply that he is perfect, in fact, that he asked the question at all shows just the opposite. Also, Our Lord does not tell him that he is in need of savior, probably because it is understood between them from the outset. What Our Lord is actually conveying to him is that He was calling him to reject his attachments to this world’s wealth and follow Christ in a consecrated lifestyle. The man couldn’t do it. He actually loved his wealth and comfort more than he did God, and that is what Our Lord brings out near the end of the passage.

Unfortunately for the guy, he didn’t accept Jesus Christ because he didn’t want to give anything up.

Essentially what I said…

 

[Church_Militant]

But there are verses that support the trinity. There is nothing to support a belief in purgatory. That’s the difference.

Already dealt with above. You are dead wrong in this particular assertion.

Wrong. The bible was written BEFORE there was a catholic church, so that’s impossible.

Historically without a foundation and espoused only by fictitious and agenda driven writings that fall apart under serious and honest scrutiny. I’ve refuted this before, as have many others here.

The Catholic church was started by constantine. What he did was mix Christianity with peganism. That’s why they have all of the false god’s in their church.

Again…an allegation without any objective historical substance. Just because you believe “Trail of Blood” doesn’t make it any less fictitious.

Jesus Christ is the boss, NOT the church. What He says, goes. The word of God supercedes anything a church, person, or an angel of heaven says.

That’s odd, because that is precisely not what the Word of God says.
1Timothy 3:15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

There are also many other New Testament passages that show that Our Lord built His church and put it over the believers to guide and protect His teachings. Now, since we agree that “Jesus Christ is the boss”, and He put the church in charge, do you want to rethink and reassess your position? I sure would if I were you…

Ga 1:8 You must compare scripture with scripture.
2Pe 1:20, 1Co 2:13

And in so doing, I have shown that what you teach is not scripturally accurate in most cases. If, then, yours is a “different gospel”, then why do you persist in holding it forth?

Many have said the prayer to God from their hearts, nearly 50% of them.

The problem there is that the majority them are now converts to the Catholic faith and have stated so here on their posts and pointed out, as have I that yours is a deficient and unscriptural gospel. Your poll was flawed from the outset.

My goal isn’t really to worry about which church they choose, although I believe the Catholic church to be corrupt.

As with most of what you have preached here that too is in error and every time you have offered some such allegation, I and my Catholic brothers and sisters have proved you dead wrong. Do you not have eyes to see and ears to hear?

My goal is to preach the gospel, which many catholics can’t seem to separate from their church. The gospel has NOTHING to do with a church, baptism, good deeds, or ritual. It is about accepting into your heart and turning to Jesus Christ and what He did already on the cross to pay for your sins.

Your goal and intention may be laudable, but your message is errant. Even now you misrepresent Catholic belief and teaching, giving the impression that you think you know our most holy faith better than we do. Something that I’ve show to be untrue several times now.

Furthermore, as I’ve stated before, in comparing scripture with scripture, I have shown that your gospel is different than that of the New Testament and the Catholic Church.

If we could be good enough on our own to get to heaven, then Christ Jesus died in vain. Ga 2:21

I have never seen a faithful Catholic source that would argue against that.

The law is the KNOWLEDGE of sin, but NOT the remedy.
Ro 3:20, Tit 3:5, Ro 3:28,

Works of righteousness DO NOT save, they are merely a product OF salvation:

Matthew 25:31-46 would shed some scriptural light on that. There is no faithful Catholic teaching that says that they do. However, you need a more scriptural belief concerning them.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I had to agree with Michael. frodo is preaching to the choir. Frankly, I think he is wasting his time here to convert us and show us the errors of Catholicism. The one comment frodo made is erroneous. This is one comment that just make me laugh.

“The Catholic church was started by constantine. What he did was mix Christianity with peganism. That’s why they have all of the false god’s in their church.”

Oh really. Constantine live in around ** 274 to 337 AD**. He reign Emperor from 324-337 AD. The Catholic Church was already there before he converted to Christianity. I also like to add that Emperor Constantine is consider a saint in the Eastern Orthodox Church.

With that aside. The first Pope is Peter, who Jesus Christ build his Church upon. He grafted Simon Peter onto himself. The earliest record we have when the Christian Church was called Catholic was around** 107-110 AD **by St. Ignatius of Antioch, the disciple of St. John, the Apostle (who knew Jesus personally).

In his** Epistles to the Smyrnaeans**, Ignatius writes:

Chapter 8. Let nothing be done without the bishop.

See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

So we see that frodo’s premise is false for claiming the Catholic Church is founded by Constantine. Second, Constantine didn’t add anything. In fact, in order to prevent the Church from splitting with the dispute about the Arianism, he called forth the Council of Nicea in 325 AD. In this Council the Church Fathers condemned Arianism as heresy and defined the Trinity. There is no trace of paganism in our beliefs. frodo’s distorted view of Catholic Christianity is false.

 

[Gregory]

1. He did not expect, and is not really equipped to deal with Biblically knowledgeable Catholics who point out the inconsistencies in his theology.
2. CAF has a greater number of the kind of Catholics mentioned in point two above, and therefore he feels overwhelmed, (worn down to a nub) by the fact that so many posts call for a response that he cannot adequately answer.

Its true, I checked it out myself. He has been banned from many forums… but we seem to be one of the most active ones for him. I am hoping one day xfro will open his heart to the scriptures and realize the one true faith and convert.

It seems xfro had a no contest audience here:

That must have been a relief for xfro

 

[Odell]

Frodo are those in Heb Ch 10 sanctified or not?

YOU say no scripture says yes

Read Hebrews 10:29 again. It says that the person was “sanctified” (NIV, RSV, KJV) or “consecrated” (NAB) by the blood of the [new] covenant.

Why cant you answer the question? :coffeeread: :juggle: :coffeeread: :juggle: :coffeeread: :juggle: :coffeeread: :juggle:

**
it’s through Jesus Christ alone that we are saved, **

Amen Catholics believe this.

But you dont you would rather trust your own fallible interpritation. In YOUR faith alone.

What does Paul ahve to say about this
“Therefore whoever thinks he is standing firm should take care not to fall.”

Catholics trust in Jesus alone and we trust in his word when he ask of us to do something we do it because he gives us the grace to do it. you have a problem with doing his will and that is something you will have to take up with him.

all I can say is you should really trust in Jesus and trust his words when he says you will be cut off YOU will be cut off.

 

[JimG]

What’s amazing is that Xfrodobagginsx thinks he is relying on scripture alone, without even realizing how much tradition he stands on, just to hold that bible in his hands.

What is needed BEFORE one can make use of scripture?

First, literacy. If I don’t know how to read, I cannot read the scriptures. So I depend on someone else to teach me to read.

Second, inspiration. How do I know that what I hold in my hands is the inspired word of God? How do I know that the gospel of Mark is inspired, or the letter to the Ephesians? I didn’t decide that. The Catholic Church decided that, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and handed down those scriptures to me.

Third, translation. If I don’t read the original languages of scripture, then I must trust someone else to translate them for me. Now I’ve added another person upon whom I must rely, in addition to scripture.

Fourth, preservation. Greek manuscripts don’t hold up well. Many people, mostly Catholic monks, had to copy and preserve them throughout the ages. So, I’ve got to rely on those people too, and trust their faithfulness in copying.

Fifth, interpretation. Do I think like a first century Jew? Are my literary conventions and thought processes the same? Probably not. Is my background the same as those to whom Paul addressed his writings? Can I make the same connections to unwritten assumptions that his hearers did? No, but I don’t have to worry about that. Because the word was preached—and understood—before it was written, and that correct understanding of the preaching has been handed down by the Apostles through their successors to the present age.

It is simply not possible that Xfrodo or anyone else, comes to their particular theological and doctrinal conclusions, only from reading the bible. No, they have heard it preached, and have heard it preached from a particular theological and doctrinal standpoint. They have heard others express opinions on what these passages mean. That is, they have had particular scriptural traditions handed down to them.

My traditions—those of the Catholic Church—go back far enough to warrant a capital T, because they have been handed down from the beginning. Others may have been around only a few centuries, or even a few decades.

No one comes to the bible without standing on the shoulders of Catholic Church, which wrote, preserved, interpreted, and handed down those scriptures.