How To Get To Heaven

[Gamera]

Frodobaggins, you demonstrate no understanding of what the word “sacrament” means. No sacrament is a “work.” No sacrament is “performed” by its recipient. No sacrament is intended to “earn” us grace. That isn’t what sacraments do, that isn’t what the word “sacrament” even means, and that isn’t what the Catholic Church teaches. You are arguing against something that we don’t believe anymore than you do.

Imagine if someone said to you, “You can’t get to heaven by accepted Jesus as savior, because accepting Jesus as savior is a work, and Jesus finished the work of salvation on the cross. Stop trying to add to Jesus’ finished work by trying to accept Jesus as savior.” How would you react? You’d look at the person like they had two heads. That is exactly how muddled your arguments sound to us. Sacraments are not “additions” to Christ’s grace. Sacraments are the instruments through which Christ freely gives us His unmerited grace. We don’t work for them. We receive them as gifts.

 

[EHRAM]

Again, Mark 16:16 says that “whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.” And when we “make disciples of all nations” we do so by “baptizing in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit” and “teaching them to obey” what Jesus commanded. (Mt. 28:18-20).

And in John 6, if Jesus did not mean that we must literally eat his flesh and drink his blood, why did he permit so many of his followers to leave? (John 6:66) He could have said, “hey, come back, I was just using a figure of speech.” But He didn’t. In fact he asked the Twelve if they wanted to leave too. (John 6:67)

And yes, Catholics do believe in justification by faith. But obeying God and performing the good works he prepared for us are confirmation of the faith we have received.

In Peter’s speech in Acts 2:38, he call his hearers to “repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

This verse does not specifically mention either “faith” or “belief.” Would you conclude from this verse that faith is unnecessary? Of course not. The same is true for the verses that you cite. Just because they do not mention baptism or repentance (turning from sin), it does not mean that baptism and repentance are not necessary.

 

[clmowry]

Exactly.

Thus my definition of “Sola Scriptura”: An unread Bible sitting on the book shelf.

Chuck

What’s amazing is that Xfrodobagginsx thinks he is relying on scripture alone, without even realizing how much tradition he stands on, just to hold that bible in his hands.

What is needed BEFORE one can make use of scripture?

First, literacy. If I don’t know how to read, I cannot read the scriptures. So I depend on someone else to teach me to read.

Second, inspiration. How do I know that what I hold in my hands is the inspired word of God? How do I know that the gospel of Mark is inspired, or the letter to the Ephesians? I didn’t decide that. The Catholic Church decided that, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and handed down those scriptures to me.

Third, translation. If I don’t read the original languages of scripture, then I must trust someone else to translate them for me. Now I’ve added another person upon whom I must rely, in addition to scripture.

Fourth, preservation. Greek manuscripts don’t hold up well. Many people, mostly Catholic monks, had to copy and preserve them throughout the ages. So, I’ve got to rely on those people too, and trust their faithfulness in copying.

Fifth, interpretation. Do I think like a first century Jew? Are my literary conventions and thought processes the same? Probably not. Is my background the same as those to whom Paul addressed his writings? Can I make the same connections to unwritten assumptions that his hearers did? No, but I don’t have to worry about that. Because the word was preached—and understood—before it was written, and that correct understanding of the preaching has been handed down by the Apostles through their successors to the present age.

It is simply not possible that Xfrodo or anyone else, comes to their particular theological and doctrinal conclusions, only from reading the bible. No, they have heard it preached, and have heard it preached from a particular theological and doctrinal standpoint. They have heard others express opinions on what these passages mean. That is, they have had particular scriptural traditions handed down to them.

My traditions—those of the Catholic Church—go back far enough to warrant a capital T, because they have been handed down from the beginning. Others may have been around only a few centuries, or even a few decades.

No one comes to the bible without standing on the shoulders of Catholic Church, which wrote, preserved, interpreted, and handed down those scriptures.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Frodobaggins, you demonstrate no understanding of what the word “sacrament” means. No sacrament is a “work.” No sacrament is “performed” by its recipient. No sacrament is intended to “earn” us grace. That isn’t what sacraments do, that isn’t what the word “sacrament” even means, and that isn’t what the Catholic Church teaches. You are arguing against something that we don’t believe anymore than you do.

Imagine if someone said to you, “You can’t get to heaven by accepted Jesus as savior, because accepting Jesus as savior is a work, and Jesus finished the work of salvation on the cross. Stop trying to add to Jesus’ finished work by trying to accept Jesus as savior.” How would you react? You’d look at the person like they had two heads. That is exactly how muddled your arguments sound to us. Sacraments are not “additions” to Christ’s grace. Sacraments are the instruments through which Christ freely gives us His unmerited grace. We don’t work for them. We receive them as gifts.

[SIGN]Amen![/SIGN] I realized 3 pages ago that it really doesn’t matter what we say, Mr Baggins has a caricature of Catholicism in his head (that looks and sounds absolutely nothing like Catholicism in reality) and no amount of posting on our part is going to make him see that what he’s arguing against isn’t at all what we believe. He insists on repeating the same vain arguments over and over and over and over even when we’ve told him that we don’t believe what he is completely sure that we do believe. We’ve shown him from Scripture where his view of salvation is contrary to Scripture, yet he ignores it and then says that WE are ignoring passages of Scripture. When we post verses that say plainly things like, “Baptism now saves you” he is utterly certain that that’s NOT what the verse means.

I pray for those lurking on this thread, that they will see the love of God, and Truth shining through in the midst of so many false accusations against Christ’s Church.

 

[Gamera]

[SIGN]Amen![/SIGN] I realized 3 pages ago that it really doesn’t matter what we say, Mr Baggins has a caricature of Catholicism in his head (that looks and sounds absolutely nothing like Catholicism in reality) and no amount of posting on our part is going to make him see that what he’s arguing against isn’t at all what we believe. He insists on repeating the same vain arguments over and over and over and over even when we’ve told him that we don’t believe what he is completely sure that we do believe. We’ve shown him from Scripture where his view of salvation is contrary to Scripture, yet he ignores it and then says that WE are ignoring passages of Scripture. When we post verses that say plainly things like, “Baptism now saves you” he is utterly certain that that’s NOT what the verse means.

I pray for those lurking on this thread, that they will see the love of God, and Truth shining through in the midst of so many false accusations against Christ’s Church.

Yep. It’s one thing for someone to tell me what he believes, but I’ll be darned if I’ll let someone else wrongly tell me what I believe. That drives me up the wall.

It’s like this:

“I don’t believe in salvation by works.”
“Yes, you do.”

What kind of conversation is that? LOL!

 

[Church_Militant]

**I am not saying that genuine faith MUST result in works. **What I am saying is that genuine faith DOES result in works. The faith in Him saves. The works are a result of that salvation.

Then you contradict the Word of God, because it does indeed say that. Look at Matthew 25:31-46.
*

Not faith and sacriments, but by faith alone. You keep trying to add to it.

**Not AND the sacriments. Just by FAITH. The faith gives access to grace, which means unearned favor, meaning deeds such as taking sacriments don’t save. You are getting closer to understanding though.**Sacraments, (note correct spelling while you’re at it.) are indeed means to salvation, though your different and deficient gospel denies it. You’ve already been shown that Baptism is necessary for salvation according to the Word of God. (How Is A Catholic Saved? and Baptism~ Necessary or Not?)That is a sacrament as is the Eucharist, which again, according to the Word of God, (The Eucharist IS Scriptural) has a great deal to do with our salvation. If God ordained them, then who are you to deny and oppose them?

I can agree on that, but that’s not what people have been saying. Also, the REASON that there will be good works is because when you are born again, God produces in you a natural ESIRE to serve Him. The others have been saying that works save and they certainly do NOT. It is important because these people are putting their FAITH in their good deeds and not Jesus Christ and you can’t be saved that way. Jesus Christ is the way, not the works.

This is nothing but your biased and ill informed opinion and misinterpretation of what you have encountered.

Stick to what the Word of God actually says and you’ll fast discover the reasons that I say that your gospel is different and deficient.

I did not intend to imply that the sacraments of Baptism and Eucharist are not necessary for salvation. In fact I pointed out passages that point to their necessity (e.g. Mark 16:16, John 6). One must be born anew/again/from above by water and spirit. (John 3:3-8). Baptism is the sacrament of faith. Baptism, whether by water, blood or of desire, is necessary.

I totally disagree here. Now you are flip flopping. Works don’t save…period. They are a natural result of being born again. If we fail to do these works for some reason, we are STILL saved.

No… he’s not. You your wishful thinking is what he has contradicted. Let’s look at what teh Word of God actually says. 16 By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit, shall be cut down, and shall be cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. 22**23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity. Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? (Matthew 7)
(cont’d)

 

[Church_Militant]

But the sacraments, though necessary, do not, in themselves, save; It is God who saves. “God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.”

So, let me get this straight. You believe that God saves through the sacriments? That’s unbiblical and false. No where does it say that sacriments save.

When He says to eat His body and blood, He goes on to say that His words are Spirit, not physical. *I couldn’t have explained it better. Your assertion that it is unbiblical is actually what is unbiblical as Acts 2:39 and 22:16 plainly show (along with many other passages!) How is that you can deny the every things that Christ Himself has plainly said and still profess to preaching the same gospel of the apostles who in all but one case gave their very lives for it?

As for your opposition to the the Eucharistic Real Presence, I suggest that you check your errant beliefs against those of St. Paul and even the early church. 1st Corinthians 11:23-30 makes it very very plain that he was teaching that to take communion while in grave sin was dangerous because in doing so they “shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.” *(verse 27)

The sacraments confer God’s grace when they are celebrated in faith. They are efficacious, because of God’s power.

No, the Lord’s supper is eaten in rememberance of Jesus Christ and what He did on the cross to pay for our sins. The cross pays for our sins, not sacriments. You are missing it.

Sorry, but you are the one missing it. Even St. Ignatius of Antioch condemns you in his writings. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer,(7) because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death(11) in the midst of their disputes. Link

It would be dangerous to the soul of an unbeliever to receive the Body and Blood of Christ (1 Cor 11). That is why the Church does not practice open communion.

**That’s not true. I went to a catholic church and anyone and everyone was invited to my knowledge. **

I did NOT partake because I have too many issues with the catholic church. I do take communion at my church.*Again… your knowledge is faulty.

However, the fact that your faith community does not teach the Eucharistic Real Presence means that there is no danger whatever to anyone, even non-believers who take communion with you. Unlike St. Paul you have not got the body and blood of the Lord there.

This is, IMO, one of the very reasons that modern post reformation n-C faith communities teach the things they do, because those who left the Catholic Church and who had been rightly ordained as priests knew full well that once they all died off their rebellious communities would lose the capacity to consecrate the Eucharist and so they began to change their teachings in order that their people would be deceived into not concerning themselves with what the New Testament actually says about the Eucharistic Real Presence. It is one of the gravest losses of the Reformation and beyond. *
*

 

[guanophore]

Now you are talking about the RESULTS of faith, not faith. I have been telling you about faith. The RESULTS of faith are that you have a desire to do God’s will, good deeds, baptism, communion, ect. But they don’t save you. You do them BECAUSE you already ARE saved as I have said many, many, times.

You say this because you have been taught (erroneously) that “salvation” is something that occurs suddenly at one point in time. However, this is not consistent with the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles.

A true believer WILL endure to the end, not because of himself, but because of the Holy Spirit that dwells within him.

It is both. Unless a person cooperates with the HS, one cannot remain in Christ. Why else would Jesus command us to “remain” in Him?

No arguement. It’s just that you believe that the works save, I say that you are saved BEFORE you even do the works because of the FAITH.

No, the Catholic Church does not teach that works save. The Church teaches that we are saved by grace, through faith. This saving faith will express itself “to the end” by obedience to the Commandments of God. Saving faith cannot, and should not, be separated from the fruit that it produces.

You forgot verse 63 where He said:

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

So, you think the flesh that Jesus gave for the life of the world profited nothing?

He doesn’t mean literally eating Him. It is something Spiritual that happens when we are saved. It’s not about the ritual communion, it’s about salvation that comes when we place our faith in **Him alone **for salvation.

Where does it say THAT in your bible?

If you believe and are baptize you will be saved, but it’s not the baptism that saved you. It is something that we do AFTER we are already saved.

Ok, what does it mean when it says:

“Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you” 1 Peter 3:21

And when they asked Peter how to be saved after his Pentecost sermon, why did he say they needed to be baptized?

We are saved by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ.

Yes, and we access this grace through the sacraments.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

Quote:
Originally Posted by xfrodobagginsx
We are saved by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ.

Yes, and we access this grace through the sacraments.

Wrong. We access this grace through FAITH.

“For **by grace **are ye saved through FAITH…”

By grace through faith, by grace through faith…can you say that with me and think about what it says?

We are saved BY GRACE and access it THROUGH FAITH…Nothing else is added here.

Eph 2:8 For **by grace **are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ro 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But** if it be of works, then is it no more grace**: otherwise work is no more work.

Communion is works. Good deeds are works. Baptism is works. The only thing is says to do is trust Him for salvation by FAITH.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

We are saved by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ.

Yes, and we access this grace through the sacraments.

Wrong. We access this grace through FAITH.

“For **by grace **are ye saved through FAITH…”

By grace through faith, by grace through faith…can you say that with me and think about what it says?

James 2:14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?

15 And if a brother or sister be naked, and want daily food:

16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit?

**17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.**

18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.

19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.

**20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?**

We are saved BY GRACE and access it THROUGH FAITH…Nothing else is added here.

Only if you ignore other Scriptures. If you’re basing your whole belief system on one passage then you should start a new denomination.

Eph 2:8 For **by grace **are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Does your Bible stop there? Mine goes on to say: 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.

Ro 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But** if it be of works, then is it no more grace**: otherwise work is no more work.

Amen! NOBODY HERE THINKS THAT WORKS ALONE WILL SAVE THEM. We are saved by GRACE through FAITH and that FAITH if it is true faith, WORKS.

Communion is works. Good deeds are works. Baptism is works.

Amen, they are works that God does through the bread, wine, water and our bodies.

The only thing is says to do is trust Him for salvation by FAITH.

And how exactly does one “faith”? Is whether or not we have faith, God’s sole criteria for judging us worthy of salvation?

If the answer is no, then it is not salvation by faith alone, is it? If the answer is yes, then why does every passage in the New Testament that speaks of judgment, say that we will be judged by our works? (For example: Matthew 24:14-30 & 31-46; John 15:1-6; Rom 2:6; Rev 20:13) **Why don’t they say we will be judged by our faith? **

 

[guanophore]

Quote:
Originally Posted by xfrodobagginsx
We are saved by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ.

Yes, and we access this grace through the sacraments.

Wrong. We access this grace through FAITH.

“For **by grace **are ye saved through FAITH…”

By grace through faith, by grace through faith…can you say that with me and think about what it says?

We are saved BY GRACE and access it THROUGH FAITH…Nothing else is added here.

Eph 2:8 For **by grace **are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ro 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But** if it be of works, then is it no more grace**: otherwise work is no more work.

Communion is works. Good deeds are works. Baptism is works. The only thing is says to do is trust Him for salvation by FAITH.

You are wrong about these things, frodo. Communion is not a “work” in sense that you are applying the word (deeds of the law). Good works that were prepared for us beforehand from the foundation of the world that we should walk in them are a tribute to God, and not a way of one trying to “work” one’s way into heaven. Baptism is entirely trusitng in Him for salvation, by grace.

The process of salvation is cooperative. God does His part, and we do ours. Ours is to " work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." Phil 2:12-13

This is making a conscious choice to cooperate with the grace of God, and deciding to follow the leading of the HS daily. That does not conflict with your theology, does it?

There are many things that we can, and should, do in order to lead a life worthy of the calling to which we have been called"

" Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you men of double mind. 9 Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to dejection. 10 Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you. "
James 4:7-10

Now if you study these verb tenses, you will see that they are in the imperative mode.

Draw near
Cleanse your hands
purify your heats
be wretched, mournn and weep
Humble yourself

These are all things that we do (by God’s grace) to enter into His Kingdom. None of them can be done without Him, and none can be accomplished without faith. Nevertheless, they are actions required on our part. God made us in His image and likeness. He created us with free will. He will not trample our free will in order to save us. If we abandon Him, He allows us to choose life apart from Himself.

 

[guanophore]

Originally Posted by xfrodobagginsx
We are saved by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ.

Yes, and we access this grace through the sacraments.

Wrong. We access this grace through FAITH.

“For **by grace **are ye saved through FAITH…”

By grace through faith, by grace through faith…can you say that with me and think about what it says?

You are misunderstanding sacraments, frodo. Sacraments are events through which we approach God’s grace in faith, and experience His saving power applied to us as individuals.

We are saved BY GRACE and access it THROUGH FAITH…Nothing else is added here.

Perhaps not in this particular verse, but elsewhere, many things are added. Catholics interpret the Bible as a whole, and don’t take verses out one by each and try to create a theology from them.

Something from today’s reading struck me on this point:

“Beloved, we are God’s children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every one who thus hopes in him **purifies himself **as he is pure.” 1 John 3:2-3

Does any of us think that we have the ability to “purify” ourselves? Surely not! But we have a responsibility to respond to God’s saving grace by obedience to the things that make us holy, so that one day, we can see Him as He really is.

Eph 2:8 For **by grace **are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

This is just a semantics problem, frodo. You think of salvation as something that happens once for all, at a certain point in time. Catholics see salvation as something that began at baptism, is in process throughtout our earthly life, and culminates when we go to meet our Maker.

The Catholic Church does not teach that someone should boast about their good deeds.

 

[Gamera]

Wrong. We access this grace through FAITH.

Of course we do. But not by faith ALONE. IF that were true, babies could not access grace; toddlers could not access grace; many mentally challenged people could not access grace. Salvation would be available only to mentally healthy adults. What a monstrous doctrine “faith alone” is.

“For **by grace **are ye saved through FAITH…”

By grace through faith, by grace through faith…can you say that with me and think about what it says?

Pretending to talk down to us just shows that you have nothing new to add. We’ve debunked your false interpretation of this verse many times. Yes, we are saved by grace through faith, but not by faith ALONE. No verse says we are saved by “faith alone.”

Communion is works.

No, it isn’t. It is God’s gift. Receiving Communion means accepting Jesus into our very beings. We don’t “do” anything. We receive.

Good deeds are works.

Yes, they are works that Jesus commanded us to do under penalty of losing His grace (Matt 7:21-23). We don’t do good deeds to “earn” our salvation. You’ve been told this countless times.

Baptism is works.

No, it isn’t. It is God’s gift to us.

The only thing is says to do is trust Him for salvation by FAITH.

That isn’t what the Bible says, and that isn’t what any Christian ever believed before the year 1500. You are in bondage to a relatively recent tradition of men, and you’ve plainly run out of new arguments to support it. Repeating the same ones doesn’t strengthen your case. We know our Bibles too well to be fooled.

 

[Philthy]

**

frodo:

I am not saying that genuine faith MUST result in works…

The patience of those who have persisted in politely pointing out your numerous theological errors and inconsistencies is a true testimony to their charity.
There are two problems with proclaiming sola scriptura and then expressing an OPINION (ie non scriptural statement) such as the one above. One of the problems is that BY YOUR ACTIONS - ie stating an opinion - you inherently contradict the notion that Scripture is sufficiently clear in expressing itself. The other is that anyone can come in and use Scripture to blatantly and easily refute you.
For example, your claim is that “genuine faith doesnt necessarily result in works”. Now I could ask you to please **name ONE PERSON in the bible who had genuine faith that didnt result in good works **and you would be silenced. How ridiculous is it that God didnt provide a single instance in the life of a human in all of Scripture for something so important? You will argue endlessly yet not provide a single example from the written Word of God. Very convincing indeed.
In addition, I can simply point out that in Scripture we are told that **“Faith , if it does not have works, is dead” from James 2. And once again you would think that you would pause to reflect that perhaps you need to amend some of your theology, but you havent shown the slightest hint of doing so.
You continue on apparently ignorant of the strength of the arguments of those opposing you under the delusion that your weak argumentation, dodging and repeated appeals to other Scripture is going to change anyone’s mind that you are dead wrong about this. Are you really that detached?
Your notion of genuine faith is simply lacking true Scriptural support, historical support, and logical support. But, for whatever reason, you dont appear to really care . I think that would be a good starting point for you to reflect on - what is it you hold so dear that prevents you from accepting it when your claims about what Scripture says are demonstrated to be wrong?

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

There is no where in the bible to indicate that those are NOT works. There is plenty in the bible to indicate that it is by FAITH alone that we are saved. You are adding to salvation.

Ga 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Ga 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. {with him: or, with me}

It is the gospel that saves, not baptism. There is a distinction:

1Co 1:17 ¶ For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. {words: or, speech}

Communion is works. Good deeds are works. Baptism is works. The only thing is says to do is trust Him for salvation by FAITH.

 

[Philthy]

frodo:

I am not saying that genuine faith MUST result in works…

The patience of those who have persisted in politely pointing out your numerous theological errors and inconsistencies is a true testimony to their charity.
There are two problems with proclaiming sola scriptura and then expressing an OPINION (ie non scriptural statement) such as the one above. One of the problems is that BY YOUR ACTIONS - ie stating an opinion - you inherently contradict the notion that Scripture is sufficiently clear in expressing itself. The other is that anyone can come in and use Scripture to blatantly and easily refute you.
**For example, your claim is that “genuine faith doesnt necessarily result in works”. Now I could ask you to please name ONE PERSON in the bible who had genuine faith that didnt result in good works and you would be silenced. How ridiculous is it that God didnt provide a single instance in the life of a human in all of Scripture for something so important? You will argue endlessly yet not provide a single example from the written Word of God. Very convincing indeed.
In addition, I can simply point out that in Scripture we are told that **“Faith , if it does not have works, is dead” from James 2. And once again you would think that you would pause to reflect that perhaps you need to amend some of your theology, but you havent shown the slightest hint of doing so.
You continue on apparently ignorant of the strength of the arguments of those opposing you under the delusion that your weak argumentation, dodging and repeated appeals to other Scripture is going to change anyone’s mind that you are dead wrong about this. Are you really that detached?
Your notion of genuine faith is simply lacking true Scriptural support, historical support, and logical support. But, for whatever reason, you dont appear to really care . I think that would be a good starting point for you to reflect on - what is it you hold so dear that prevents you from accepting it when your claims about what Scripture says are demonstrated to be wrong?

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

Baptism does NOT save.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

This verse doesn’t say that baptism saves. Look at the explanation of the verse. That which is born of flesh is flesh (water represents fleshly birth, the mother’s womb contains water), that which is born of Spirit is spirit (Spiritual birth)

Mr 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. {for: or, unto}

Lu 3:3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

As far as baptism saving you, it is the baptism of repentence that saves, not water baptism. The baptism is an outward showing of what happens when you accept Jesus Christ as your Savior. It is NOT salvation, nor is it part of it. It is a believer’s act of obedience.

Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
(KJV)

Look at this verse. At first glance it appears as though baptism saves. But it says “He that believeth not shall be damned.” He is not damned for not being baptized.

1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
(KJV)

The baptism being talked about is a good concience toward God not water baptism. It says “not the putting away of the filth of the flesh” but what? “a good conscience toward God”

Here are verses regarding Salvation:

Ac 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Where is baptism mentioned here for Salvation?

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. {words: or, speech}
(KJV)

What did it just say?

Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

Where is baptism mentioned here?

Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Where is baptism mentioned here?

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

It says it is by grace through faith, not baptism.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(KJV)

It says whosoever believeth in Him. Where is baptism meantioned here?

If baptism were necessary for salvation surely it would have been mentioned in these important passages.

You cannot possess the Holy Ghost unless you are saved right?

Ac 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

They were already saved and possessed the Holy Ghost and they had not been baptized yet.

Ga 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Where is baptism mentioned here?

Mr 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

I believe that some of those verses that you believe are talking about water baptism are actually talking about being baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Baptism is not mentioned here.

Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

The Door is Jesus Christ. We enter in by accepting Him.

Re 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

We open the door by receiving Him, what He did on the cross for us to pay for our sins. Baptism is an act of obedience. It is a public profession of faith.

Lu 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

This theif couldn’t be baptized and Jesus Christ told him what? Today thou shalt be with me in paradise. Because He asked Jesus to save him. He received what Jesus did for Him.

Ac 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

What was the requirement for Him to be baptized? He has to believe. Baptism is for believer’s only. Believer’s are already Saved.

1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

If believing means that you know that you have eternal life, where is baptism mentioned here?

It is very clear that baptism is NOT for salvation but an act of obedience. It is an ordinaince just as communion is.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

Philthy:
The patience of those who have persisted in politely pointing out your numerous theological errors and inconsistencies is a true testimony to their charity.
There are two problems with proclaiming sola scriptura and then expressing an OPINION (ie non scriptural statement) such as the one above. One of the problems is that BY YOUR ACTIONS - ie stating an opinion - you inherently contradict the notion that Scripture is sufficiently clear in expressing itself. The other is that anyone can come in and use Scripture to blatantly and easily refute you.
**For example, your claim is that “genuine faith doesnt necessarily result in works”. Now I could ask you to please name ONE PERSON in the bible who had genuine faith that didnt result in good works and you would be silenced. How ridiculous is it that God didnt provide a single instance in the life of a human in all of Scripture for something so important? You will argue endlessly yet not provide a single example from the written Word of God. Very convincing indeed.
In addition, I can simply point out that in Scripture we are told that **“Faith , if it does not have works, is dead” from James 2. And once again you would think that you would pause to reflect that perhaps you need to amend some of your theology, but you havent shown the slightest hint of doing so.
You continue on apparently ignorant of the strength of the arguments of those opposing you under the delusion that your weak argumentation, dodging and repeated appeals to other Scripture is going to change anyone’s mind that you are dead wrong about this. Are you really that detached?
Your notion of genuine faith is simply lacking true Scriptural support, historical support, and logical support. But, for whatever reason, you dont appear to really care . I think that would be a good starting point for you to reflect on - what is it you hold so dear that prevents you from accepting it when your claims about what Scripture says are demonstrated to be wrong?

I didn’t say that genuine faith doesn’t result in works. I said you could be saved, yet not execute things such as baptism, communion, ect. You are doing the same thing with my posts that you do with the bible. You ignore the 99% and focus on the 1% that fits what YOU WANT to be true. This is how cain was. Cain tried to please God CAIN’S way, not God’s way. God did NOT accept Cain’s sacrifice, because it wasn’t what God asked for.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Baptism does NOT save.

Dead wrong. very theologically incorrect.

What does the Bible says in 1 Peter 3:21

21 Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. (Douay Rheims Bible)

21 and this water symbolizes baptism **that now saves **you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[a] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. (NIV Bible)

21The like figure whereunto even baptism **doth also now save **us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: (KJV)

21(A)Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you–(B)not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a (C)good conscience–through (D)the resurrection of Jesus Christ (NASB)

This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God 7 for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, - NAB Bible