How To Get To Heaven

[xfrodobagginsx]

You apparently still misunderstand the Catholic position, because you keep telling us things we already know and believe. Sorta. The Church does not teach that we are saved by our own “works of righteousness” and yet you seem to keep erroneously insisting that the Church does teach this. Please show me where in the Catechism of the Catholic Church that it tells us we are saved by our own works. I pointed out to you on the first thread you did with the same copy/paste job in the OP that Catholics believe we are saved by GRACE. God’s grace gives us faith, and we demonstrate that faith with works, which are not OUR works of righteousness, but God working in and through us. We’re not hoping to make it to Heaven by pulling our own bootstraps and to keep insisting that we believe that is bearing false witness.

Water baptism IS a spiritual baptism! The Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus at His baptism (Matthew 3:16) We are born again in baptism (born of water and of the Spirit) according to Jesus Christ in John 3:5. When we are baptized, our sins are washed away, according to Acts 22:16. Don’t you believe God?

Nope, not deeds of the law, but works of mercy and grace which God has ordained for us. Review Matthew 25 and then tell me if Jesus says anything about “just place your trust in me for your salvation” in that chapter.

So you just ignore the places that you don’t like to hear,which is 95% of all verses dealing with salvation that tell you it’s by faith alone without works and then you focus on a few verses that at first glace appear to say something else until they are compared with the rest of the bible?

Listen if 95% of the verses CLEARLY say that salvation is by FAITH in Jesus Christ Alone, without works, why do you ignore that? I don’t get it. The bible is extrememly lopsided in the direction that it’s by faith alone in Christ Jesus. Not just merely believing that Jesus exists, but a saving faith, placing your faith in Him for salvation.

 

[Church_Militant]

So you just ignore the places that you don’t like to hear,which is 95% of all verses dealing with salvation that tell you it’s by faith alone without works and then you focus on a few verses that at first glace appear to say something else until they are compared with the rest of the bible?

Not at all…anymore than you ignore the passages that tell you that the gospel that you preach here is an incomplete one. It doesn’t matter if 95 % of the passages did say that faith alone is what is needed for salvation the gospel is preached in Acts 2:38 and plainly contradicts your message of salvation. Who shall we believe then, you…or Peter and the apostles?

Listen if 95% of the verses CLEARLY say that salvation is by FAITH in Jesus Christ Alone, without works, why do you ignore that? I don’t get it.

You don’t get it because you have accepted another gospel that contradicts the New Testament. Catholics don’t “ignore” anything…except maybe errant n-Cs preachers who seek to lure us away from our most holy faith with a different gospel. You mistake our knowledge of the Bible and proper Holy Spirit discernment for “ignoring” your message…

The bible is extrememly lopsided in the direction that it’s by faith alone in Christ Jesus. Not just merely believing that Jesus exists, but a saving faith, placing your faith in Him for salvation.

Which part of “THAT IS WHAT CATHOLICS BELIEVE” do you not comprehend xFBx?

 

[Gamera]

So you just ignore the places that you don’t like to hear,which is 95% of all verses dealing with salvation that tell you it’s by faith alone without works …

No verse says we are saved by “faith alone.” Youv’e never quoted a single verse that uses the phrase “faith ALONE.” See, you quote verses which say we are saved by “faith” and then YOU add the word “alone.” See the difference? We agree with every verse that says we are saved by faith. We just disagree with YOUR addition of the word “alone.”

Listen if 95% of the verses CLEARLY say that salvation is by FAITH in Jesus Christ Alone, without works, why do you ignore that?

Only one verse says this and it never says “faith alone.” The verse is Ephesians 2:9. That isn’t “95% of verses,” it is one verse, and nowhere does it say “faith alone.”

What is says is “faith … not because of works.” If I say, “I was saved by the surgeon, not by his scalpal,” does that mean that the surgeon didn’t use a scalpal? Of course not. St Paul wrote, “For grace we have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God – not because of works, lest any man should boast.” We AGREE! Salvation is God’s free gift, not something we earn by works. That doesn’t mean works play no role in our salvation. “I was saved by the surgeon, not by his scalpal” is just another way of saying “I was saved by the surgeon through the use of his scalpal.” We are saved by Jesus when we keep in his grace by doing good, not sinning. St Paul explains in the next verse, Eph 2:10: “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should WALK in them.”

You cannot quote a verse which says we are saved by “faith alone” because the two words “faith alone” only appear together once in Scripture and that is to refute them: “You see a man is justified by works and NOT by faith alone,” James 2:24.

We accept the Bible. We therefore reject the man-made tradition of “faith alone.”

 

[Mannyfit75]

frodo,

Perhaps James can help you open your eyes that we are not saved by faith alone. I doubt you will listen because many of the forum members here pointed out to you from Scripture, the Bible, that we are not saved by faith alone.

James 2:18-26.

18 But someone will say, ‘You have faith and I have works.’ Show me your faith without works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. 20Do you want to be shown, you senseless person, that faith without works is barren? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works. 23Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, ‘Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness’, and he was called the friend of God. 24You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25Likewise, was not Rahab the prostitute also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by another road? 26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is also dead.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

So you just ignore the places that you don’t like to hear,which is 95% of all verses dealing with salvation that tell you it’s by faith alone without works and then you focus on a few verses that at first glace appear to say something else until they are compared with the rest of the bible?

Listen if 95% of the verses CLEARLY say that salvation is by FAITH in Jesus Christ Alone, without works, why do you ignore that? I don’t get it. The bible is extrememly lopsided in the direction that it’s by faith alone in Christ Jesus. Not just merely believing that Jesus exists, but a saving faith, placing your faith in Him for salvation.

**There is not one verse in the entire Bible that says salvation is “by faith alone.” **We are not saved by somehow on our own conjuring up faith, we’re saved by GRACE - the GRACE of GOD. By the grace of God we are given the faith to believe, and the faith to obey whatever HE tells us to do. Without the Spirit in our hearts, all of our own works and righteous acts are filthy rags. But God works in us “both to will and to do of His good pleasure.” (Phil 2:13) When I was a Baptist I had to explain away passages just like you’re doing here, because they didn’t fit into my theology. There were some verses that I had never even heard preached before, like 1 Timothy 3:15, because it doesn’t fit Baptist theology. I sure didn’t convert to Catholicism because I liked the theology better! I was much more comfortable with eternal security even though that is blatantly opposed to what Jesus says in the Gospels. But, unfortunately, there was more emphasis placed on what Paul’s epistles said than on Jesus’ very own words. Just like you’re doing here in this thread.

 

[runandsew]

What we are saying is that God’s grace saves, those who place their FAITH in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. The good works are the natural result of true faith, but they don’t save as the bible clearly states.

Good works do not save:

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Now look at the very next verse. It explains that we are supposed to do good works because we are saved, not so that we can be saved. We are saved “For good works” it means that we do good works not so that we can be saved, but because we already are saved.

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

We are not saved by works of righeousness.

Tit 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

When we accept Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit cleanses us and renews our spirit. That cleansing is a type of baptism. It is NOT water baptism. It is spiritual.

Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

But all of those verses say by FAITH without works, yet you add works.

 

[Church_Militant]

But all

of those verses say by FAITH without works, yet you add works.In your opinion, but you are wrong. I’ve already shown you several definitive passages that balance out what the Gospel is and you refuse them and then cling to your modern denominational interpretation, which cannot be correct if it conflicts with the Word of God, now can it?

And “all of those verses” don’t teach what you say they do because they are ripped out of the context of all the New Testament passages that teach about salvation.

Most telling of all is Matthew 25: 31-46 where Our Lord very plainly tells us that we will be judged based upon what we have done or have not done and that will be the decisive point as to whether we have really known Him or not.
Pax tecum,

 

[Milliardo]

So you just ignore the places that you don’t like to hear,which is 95% of all verses dealing with salvation that tell you it’s by faith alone without works and then you focus on a few verses that at first glace appear to say something else until they are compared with the rest of the bible?

Again, you seem to not understand what Jesus is saying, in that faith for Him is not merely knowing Him but obeying Him, which entails action. You can turn the Gospels over and over and you will not net one thing which in effect says we are saved by faith alone.

 

[Milliardo]

What we are saying is that God’s grace saves, those who place their FAITH in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. The good works are the natural result of true faith, but they don’t save as the bible clearly states.

Good works do not save:

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Again, it must be repeated: you ignore verse 10 to make your view work. Paul notes that God has prepared good works for us to live in them; why would He prepare them for us to live in them if good works is not essential for salvation?

It explains that we are supposed to do good works because we are saved, not so that we can be saved.

Let us see that verse then:

For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.

Where is the implication there that we are to do good works because we are saved? There is none; not implicitly, not explicitly. You are simply making it up to make your view work.

Tit 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us

Another proof text by sola fide proponents; again, the point here is that nothing has moved God to save us but His love. Therefore, if we are to follow Paul’s thought here, neither does our faith has caused God to save us. What compelled Him to act was His love and mercy for us, nothing more. You misunderstood again this passage, to your detriment.

Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

See, now you confuse works of the Law for good works; if this is Paul’s thought, that works of the Law=good works, then wouldn’t you say that Paul contradicts himself in Romans 2:5-8? What does that make Paul of then? Yet we agree that the Bible, in whole, does not contradict itself. In light of that then, what do you think is Paul’s thought? Is works of the Law=good works, or does Paul make a distinction of them?

 

[deanarrca]

Frodo,
I really think we are saying the same thing. The works have to come from a persons faith. Simply being a philanthropist without any faith won’t work. Works alone won’t work. No Catholic would say that.

   Likewise if you saw a Christian who claimed to have faith but had no works, you would probably doubt wether he was really "saved". I  am sure there are people in your church who claim to have faith, but are living a life that would suggest otherwise. The problem is when a church preaches the unbiblical "faith alone", it leads many into a false security. They believe they either don't need any works or they are unmotivated to go beyond the little they do.

  Faith is perfected by works. James 2:22. So Works alone doesn't work and Faith alone doesn't work.

  The person in a church that preaches OSAS and who claims to have faith, but is leading the sinful life gets the mixed message that he is saved regardless and therefore needs no further repentance or does not need to change.  Remember in your teaching you said all future sins were forgiven and implied that was regardless of repentance. (I would have to look up the post you  stated that in). So I believe that message (a different gospel) is very dangerous and leads to alot of confusion and possibly damnation for the person who has a false security.

 

[runandsew]

For the most part, when Paul mentions “works” or “works of the law”, you could replace that term with “works of the torah”

He is speaking of keeping the Mosaic laws, not doing good works or charity, or works of love. But even when he mentions good works, we have to keep in mind that we are not doing these works on our own, it is because of the Grace of God that we can accomplish them. Charity must accompany our faith, if it is to be a saving faith, if it is missing then our faith is dead and can’t save us.
I would recommend these two articles by Jimmy Akin of Catholic answers on works of the law, and boasting. Both are very good articles and can explain the catholic position better than I can.

 

[EHRAM]

So you just ignore the places that you don’t like to hear,which is 95% of all verses dealing with salvation that tell you it’s by faith alone without works and then you focus on a few verses that at first glace appear to say something else until they are compared with the rest of the bible?

Listen if 95% of the verses CLEARLY say that salvation is by FAITH in Jesus Christ Alone, without works, why do you ignore that? I don’t get it. The bible is extrememly lopsided in the direction that it’s by faith alone in Christ Jesus. Not just merely believing that Jesus exists, but a saving faith, placing your faith in Him for salvation.

Catholics believe in the whole Bible (including the letter of James), not just 95% of it.

According to James 2:24 we are NOT saved “by faith alone.” Instead we are saved by grace, which we receive through faith, which we express via love and obedience. Faith does not save us; grace saves us. Faith is a gift from God.

I agree that we are not saved by “works of the law” i.e. circumcision, animal sacrifice, etc. but I don’t consider baptism or the good works that God prepared for us to do “works of the law.” According to Mark 16:16, “whoever believes AND IS BAPTIZED” will be saved. And in Acts 2, Peter tells the crowd to “repent and be baptized… so that your sins will be forgiven and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

 

[EHRAM]

The prayer IS biblical.

Lu 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

What do you think the prayer is about? It about what the Bible says will get you saved.

Catholics believe in the verses you quoted above. We also believe in the rest of the Bible.

Catholics believe in asking God for forgiveness of their sins. We also believe in James 5:16, where we are instructed to confess our sins to one another and pray for one another. As part of our worhip liturgy, we ask other Christians (on earth and in heaven) to pray for the forgiveness of our sins. We also confess sins specifically and privately to a priest.

If you believe in your heart, then your belief will express itself in your actions. Note that in Romans 1:5 and 16:26 Paul speaks of the obedience of faith, right at the beginning and end of his letter to the Romans. Any mention of faith or belief in between these verses has to considered in that context and in the context of Romans 6 in which Paul emphasizes that believers should not continue in sin but be obedient.

Also, in the passage about the separation of the sheep and the goats, the “goats” call Jesus “Lord.” The goats may be those who had a false faith. They called Jesus “Lord” but did not obey Him as Lord by showing love mercy to others.

 

[EHRAM]

Here is Strong’s definition:

The word redered receive is:

1. lambanw lambano, lam-ban’-o
   Search for 2983 in KJV

a prolonged form of a primary verb, which is use only as an alternate in certain tenses; to take (in very many applications, literally and figuratively (properly objective or active, to get hold of; whereas 1209 is rather subjective or passive, to have offered to one; while 138 is more violent, to seize or remove)):–accept, + be amazed, assay, attain, bring, X when I call, catch, come on (X unto), + forget, have, hold, obtain, receive (X after), take (away, up).

This is a webster’s dictionary definition:

receive (vb)
1 : take in or accept
2 : greet or entertain (visitors)
3 : pick up radio waves and

**accept **(vb)
1 : receive willingly
2 : agree to

Joh 1:12 (KJV) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

How many of the ones who receive Him does He give this power to? As many as…that means ALL of them. Even them that believe on His name. That’s not the same as believing that He exists, that means place your faith in HIM.

BTW baptism is not even meantioned here again because baptism comes AFTER salvation.

We Catholics receive Jesus, his body and blood, soul and divinity, every time we receive Holy Communion.

 

[EHRAM]

Frodo,

May I suggest that you do a little reading about the Catholic Church with an open mind and heart? Read some of the excellent works by Catholic writers today as well as some of the works of the early Church fathers (the ones whose opinions of Scripture mattered when the Church decided what documents to include in the Holy Bible).

I think that we may have many more beliefs in common than you realize and that you may find that the Catholic Church is neither corrupt nor heretical after all.

 

[cranster]

**Yes you would absolutely still go to heaven because Christ died for past, present and future sins. **
Eph 4:30 (NKJV) And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

How do you grieve the Holy Spirit?

1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

If you can lose your salvation, do you KNOW that you have eternal life? Those who believe on Jesus Christ for salvation can rest assured that they have eternal life in HIM. Not in the church, good deeds or any other false God. Only Him. He alone is God and able to save you. Stop trying to take the credit for salvation away from what Jesus Christ did for you.

How scary for you Frodo.

Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”

Matthew 25:31-46
“Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.”

Phillipians 2:12
“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”

Matthew 18:6
“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.”

Although I have no doubt that you love Jesus with all your heart, and feel that you are showing people the truth. You are indeed spreading a very dangerous and evil heresy that could very well lead people to damnation if they follow your teaching. I pray that the Holy Spirit enlighten you and show you what you are actually doing, and that you don’t have to stand before the judgement seat and be held accountable this.

 

[dcdurel]

If you can lose your salvation, do you KNOW that you have eternal life? Those who believe on Jesus Christ for salvation can rest assured that they have eternal life in HIM. Not in the church, good deeds or any other false God. Only Him. He alone is God and able to save you. Stop trying to take the credit for salvation away from what Jesus Christ did for you.

The Galatians had faith and believed on Jesus Christ. Yet St. Paul wrote in Gal 5:19
19 “The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.”
He had to warn these “saved” Galatians at least twice that they would NOT go to heaven if they did not quit committing these mortal sins and repent.
Thus, we can certainly lose our salvation by committing mortal sin, as Jesus taught and at Paul taught and as the whole bible teaches.

The problem with most Protestants is that they do NOT accept all the teachings of the bible on salvation, but only those that seem to fit the interpretation of what Martin Luther and Calvin invented.

If we look at all the verses on salvation, it is very clear that God does NOT take away our salvation, but WE can reject it by sin, which is rebellion against God.

Of course, if a Protestant replies, he will do exactly what I just described. He will again quote the verses which seem to support his interpretation and then totally ignore the teachings of Jesus and St. Paul which clearly teach we can lose our salvation by sin. Watch and see what happens! Watch this prediction come true!

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

1Co 6:9 ¶ Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Look what it says here:

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified,** but ye are justified **in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

When the Lord saves us, He cleanses us from all of our sins, past, present and future.

How do you walk worthy of something? By living a Godly life. We can walk unworthy of our calling but we still saved.

Eph 4:1 ¶ I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, {of the Lord: or, in the Lord}

Col 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

1Th 2:12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

 

[EHRAM]

Look what it says here:

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified,** but ye are justified **in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

When the Lord saves us, He cleanses us from all of our sins, past, present and future.
.

With the exception of the King James Version, nearly every Bible translation translates this verse (1 Cor 6:11) in the past tense, i.e. “were washed…were sanctified…were justified”

I don’t think this verse is proof of the forgiveness of future sins.

Please read Hebrews 10:26-31 regarding the fate of someone who persists in sin after having received knowledge of the truth and having been sanctified.