How to handle estrangement from my mother when she sends cards to my children?

[mommamaree]

It’s a weird thing, but very often whatever compulsion a parent has in terms of their own child, disappears with a grandchild. So, open everything first, is my advice and pass it on.

why your niece is there, but do you need to advise local social services that there might be issues?

I’m really glad you took the steps you did. Pray for her and let go of the guilt. It was never your job to take care of her. If she needs help in old age, well, you might have to step in and find her some care or something. But that’s all and I bet your husband can take care of it.

You have a beautiful mom-free Christmas and enjoy every single minute of it.

Thanks.
Unfortunately, my mother’s “compulsion” has played out with my niece and oldest daughter. My mother identifies with my niece so closely, and connects my daughter and me so closely (as if my niece = my mom and my daughter = me) that she has continued the unhealthy dynamic between us to between them. She puts down my daughter and builds up my niece. She is constantly pointing out my daughter’s flaws (in my mom’s perception only) and ignores her when it comes to time spent with all the grandkids.
My mother is raising my niece because my sister was “incapable” of doing so. But why was my sister incapable of doing so, you might wonder? Because she was abused and emotionally destroyed by our mother the same as I was. But whereas I met my future inlaws and was “adopted” into their family at the age of 14, my sister had no one else. So when she accidentally got pregnant at 19, my mother began the process of breaking her down and manipulating the situation to get a hold of my niece and cut my sister out of her life. It is disgusting and creepy and has scarred the whole family.

I do hope to enjoy Christmas this year, thank you. Without my mother, unfortunately, but that isn’t really my choice to make.

 

[mommamaree]

What sort of understanding do you have with your mother? Do you have rules in place by which she ought to understand that she is not to send gifts or cards to the kids? If you do, then you can send them back with a note thanking her but saying that unfortunately the gifts cross the line you’ve set up. If you simply withdrew from her life without explanation or told her you didn’t want contact with her without explicitly saying she’s not to even send gifts to her grandchildren, then you have to decide: are cards and letters allowed? under what circumstances? Then let her and the kids know: that is, by “no contact” you meant, unfortunately, no gifts, either or no contact means she can send things but you’ll be screening them, deciding what is appropriate, and letting her know what you decided, or whatever you decide. Manipulative people are all like attorneys of the worst kind. You have to be explicit about your boundaries or they’ll act like they’ve been martyred when they’re told they’ve crossed one.

Whatever you decide, it will go both ways in terms of contact with your niece, of course.

Hi EasterJoy,
The boundaries I set were a completely No Contact period lasting at least six months, which would allow me to get through my pregnancy and postpartum period before having to reassess. I clearly explained no phone calls, no emails, no texts, no letters. She responded to my communication of the boundaries with a manipulative remark, which included questioning me about exceptions, like birthdays and Christmas. Since I had just explained No Contact, I ignored her “looking for loopholes”. Then I blocked her numbers so she couldn’t keep attempting communication.
I did this despite my awareness that this may just mean that I cannot have any communication with my niece. Unfortunately, my niece has played right into the abuse and manipulation my mother imposes on me and my oldest daughter. I love my niece, because she is my niece, but her behavior in the presence of my mother is just like my mother’s. She bullies my oldest daughter and treats me with disdain. When my mother is not around, however, she is a completely different child. She gets very clingy with me and wants to make sure that I love her and accept her. It is so heartbreaking. But my first duty is to my children and my family. I have no hope of changing the situation for my niece, and my sister has finally relinquished all custody and legal rights to her daughter this past year, because it was just a hopeless cause that our family could be reunited and she wanted to stop the drama. Since that day, I have seen (via Facebook only) that my sister is getting her life together, going to school, getting married to a military man. But my niece! She is going to have to grow up in that environment and look at what it did to me and my sister.

 

[mommamaree]

I think the advice that makes the most sense for my particular situation is to let my husband decide what to do with the cards. I also have the option of sending a card and gift certificate to my niece through my “dad’s” family, which just occurred to me. I think I will handle it that way, just to be safe. I am sure that his family will more than understand.
I have had to explain to my children briefly about what has happened with my mother, and I used words like “mind sickness” or “heart sickness” or “hurtful behavior”. I do not want to close the door forever on this relationship, but sociopathy is incurable. I do not want to slander my mother either, but my children deserved an explanation, especially since they were a witness to some of these “episodes”.

Strange thing is, they shrugged their shoulders and didn’t seem to care.
They are blessed with a loving and huge extended family on my husband’s side, the same wonderful people who welcomed me 2 decades ago when I was fleeing my childhood nightmare.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I think the advice that makes the most sense for my particular situation is to let my husband decide what to do with the cards. I also have the option of sending a card and gift certificate to my niece through my “dad’s” family, which just occurred to me. I think I will handle it that way, just to be safe. I am sure that his family will more than understand.
I have had to explain to my children briefly about what has happened with my mother, and I used words like “mind sickness” or “heart sickness” or “hurtful behavior”. I do not want to close the door forever on this relationship, but sociopathy is incurable. I do not want to slander my mother either, but my children deserved an explanation, especially since they were a witness to some of these “episodes”.

Strange thing is, they shrugged their shoulders and didn’t seem to care.
They are blessed with a loving and huge extended family on my husband’s side, the same wonderful people who welcomed me 2 decades ago when I was fleeing my childhood nightmare.

Sounds perfect. Thank God your children already have a good and loving family through your husband’s side. Like a famous radio host says, you can’t go back and get a good mother, but you can BE a good mother to your own children. God bless you.

I am so sorry about your niece, she will be the sacrificial victim to your mother’s character defect of sociopathy. What a shame.

 

[maryjk]

I think the advice that makes the most sense for my particular situation is to let my husband decide what to do with the cards. I also have the option of sending a card and gift certificate to my niece through my “dad’s” family, which just occurred to me. I think I will handle it that way, just to be safe. I am sure that his family will more than understand.
I have had to explain to my children briefly about what has happened with my mother, and I used words like “mind sickness” or “heart sickness” or “hurtful behavior”. I do not want to close the door forever on this relationship, but sociopathy is incurable. I do not want to slander my mother either, but my children deserved an explanation, especially since they were a witness to some of these “episodes”.

Strange thing is, they shrugged their shoulders and didn’t seem to care.
They are blessed with a loving and huge extended family on my husband’s side, the same wonderful people who welcomed me 2 decades ago when I was fleeing my childhood nightmare.

My son really didn’t understand a lot of what was going on, when he was young. As he got older, it was hard to cover up. And after awhile, I just didn’t bother. If she broke of play dates, didn’t send birthday cards or never called him, I didn’t make up an excuse for her. By the time everyone stopped speaking, he totally understood.

I don’t believe that telling the truth is slandering her. When my mother-in-law didn’t show up to do whatever she had planned with him, I would tell him the truth. In other words, I had no idea what set her off and I would tell him that I didn’t know why she didn’t show up. When she didn’t send a birthday card to me, and he noticed, again, I would tell him that I didn’t understand it either.

No you don’t want to talk about her, but you also shouldn’t be lying to your children. Tell them you don’t understand her. Let them know that she can be mean. I think in the long run, that is better.

 

[mommamaree]

Sounds perfect. Thank God your children already have a good and loving family through your husband’s side. Like a famous radio host says, you can’t go back and get a good mother, but you can BE a good mother to your own children. God bless you.

I am so sorry about your niece, she will be the sacrificial victim to your mother’s character defect of sociopathy. What a shame.

I have a hope that maybe someday, she will emancipate herself, same as I did at 17 (okay, so I was actually disowned and had my keys confiscated and all that…) and maybe she will want some answers from me and we might be able to have a relationship at that time. She may even have some hard questions for me, but I would welcome that from her.
But this may just be a pipe dream. My mother took the divide-and-conquer approach, and the alienation between me and my siblings that she designed is still in effect. None of us can trust the other, because none of us knows who is secretly loyal to her and how dangerous the other is. I tried to prevent it, as I am the oldest and I was given major responsibility for raising my siblings as we grew up, until I left at 17. But I was unable to prevent it, and my siblings and I are strangers to each other now, who haven’t even seen each other in many years.

 

[mommamaree]

Also, I know the accusation about my mom “stealing” my niece is a huge one, but she has actually done it before.
With lies and promises, she was able to get my bio-father to sign away his legal rights to me. She said she just wanted me to be able to share a last name with her and my newborn half-siblings from my stepdad. Then, she lied in the court papers about his involvement and financial support of me in order to get the judge to sign off on it. I have the court papers, which has the evidence right there.
As soon as the gavel dropped and the signature given, that was the very last I saw of my bio-father ever again, until I attained 18 years old and went looking for him. Unfortunately, by that point, he had already shut down that part of his heart and couldn’t seem to open up to me an any real way other than just being kind to me. It hurt so bad that I only rarely call or write to him, especially since my legally-adoptive stepdad later treated me so horribly as well.

But none of this has anything to do with my question in this thread. Sorry. I can see that discovering the hidden cards has opened up some wounds that had started to heal, which is exactly why I said No Contact. Maybe someday, Jesus will show me how to let him heal me so that the pain isn’t so intense. Even then, the external circumstances of the situation are not likely to change in any significant way.

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

Re: the cards. My first reaction would be to confiscate the cards and throw them away. Based on what you’ve disclosed, I would suspect that the cards/gifts are being sent as manipulation, not as a wholesome attempt to show love to the grandkids. I wouldn’t want them to get sucked into that.

My only concern would be that at some point, when the children are older, Grandma will have the ability to communicate with them without going through you and I would not want to give her ammunition against you when that time comes. ie. will she play the sweet victim to them, and try to convince them that you are the manipulative one who never let them have contact with her? For this reason, I would consider having your dh look through the cards, and then either give them the cards and the gifts, or if the written part is inappropriate (and if your kids are capable of reading it), just to give the girls the gift cards.

Another possibility might be to send the gift certificates (or purchase items with them first and send those) to a group home or a shelter, or some other form of charity. When your kids get old enough to talk about it, you can be very honest with them about why you had to cut ties, and you can tell them that you felt like accepting her gifts for yourselves felt like manipulation, but passing them on to children with similar troubles that you were subjected to is a small way to to do some good with this bad situation. In this scenario, I wouldn’t send a thank you card, or a note asking again for no contact. That would just be another way that she has forced you into contact. Just let it be, and do what you have to do with the cards.

 

[akela135]

I see you have already been given a lot of good advice but I just wanted to chime in quickly with my two cents.

When I was younger we didn’t have contact with one of my grandmothers do to issues between her and my parents. We received cards from her on birthday’s and Christmas and would usually see her about once a year in supervised visits with my parents. The cards were always appropriate so my parents allowed them to continue and it allowed myself and my sibling a chance to know our grandmother cared for us with out us being exposed to the problems although we knew that they did exisit. When we were older and better able to understand appropriate behavoir and boundaries we were given a greater chance to meet and interact with our grandma. I appreciated this as a child as it let me feel more connected with my family.

I agree that you should let your DH decide what to do with the cards but I see no reason, if they are appropriate, to not let your children have them. You can explain “Grandma cares for you she just has trouble controlling her behavoir and knowing how to express herself appropriately.” That way when they are older and can understand the situation better they would be able to decide whether or not they wished to get to know their grandma and they would have at least a few positive memories of her. I will be praying for your family!

 

[mommamaree]

Re: the cards. My first reaction would be to confiscate the cards and throw them away. Based on what you’ve disclosed, I would suspect that the cards/gifts are being sent as manipulation, not as a wholesome attempt to show love to the grandkids. I wouldn’t want them to get sucked into that.

My only concern would be that at some point, when the children are older, Grandma will have the ability to communicate with them without going through you and I would not want to give her ammunition against you when that time comes. ie. will she play the sweet victim to them, and try to convince them that you are the manipulative one who never let them have contact with her? For this reason, I would consider having your dh look through the cards, and then either give them the cards and the gifts, or if the written part is inappropriate (and if your kids are capable of reading it), just to give the girls the gift cards.

Another possibility might be to send the gift certificates (or purchase items with them first and send those) to a group home or a shelter, or some other form of charity. When your kids get old enough to talk about it, you can be very honest with them about why you had to cut ties, and you can tell them that you felt like accepting her gifts for yourselves felt like manipulation, but passing them on to children with similar troubles that you were subjected to is a small way to to do some good with this bad situation. In this scenario, I wouldn’t send a thank you card, or a note asking again for no contact. That would just be another way that she has forced you into contact. Just let it be, and do what you have to do with the cards.

Thank you. This really resonates with me. I will discuss your ideas with my husband.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I see you have already been given a lot of good advice but I just wanted to chime in quickly with my two cents.

When I was younger we didn’t have contact with one of my grandmothers do to issues between her and my parents. We received cards from her on birthday’s and Christmas and would usually see her about once a year in supervised visits with my parents. The cards were always appropriate so my parents allowed them to continue and it allowed myself and my sibling a chance to know our grandmother cared for us with out us being exposed to the problems although we knew that they did exisit. When we were older and better able to understand appropriate behavoir and boundaries we were given a greater chance to meet and interact with our grandma. I appreciated this as a child as it let me feel more connected with my family.

I agree that you should let your DH decide what to do with the cards but I see no reason, if they are appropriate, to not let your children have them. You can explain “Grandma cares for you she just has trouble controlling her behavior and knowing how to express herself appropriately.” That way when they are older and can understand the situation better they would be able to decide whether or not they wished to get to know their grandma and they would have at least a few positive memories of her. I will be praying for your family!

In the case of the OP, that would be a lie. A woman like the OP’s bio-mother truly does not “care for” anyone else. She uses people for her own purposes. There’s no softening what a sociopath does.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Also, I know the accusation about my mom “stealing” my niece is a huge one, but she has actually done it before.
With lies and promises, she was able to get my bio-father to sign away his legal rights to me. She said she just wanted me to be able to share a last name with her and my newborn half-siblings from my stepdad. Then, she lied in the court papers about his involvement and financial support of me in order to get the judge to sign off on it. I have the court papers, which has the evidence right there.
As soon as the gavel dropped and the signature given, that was the very last I saw of my bio-father ever again, until I attained 18 years old and went looking for him. Unfortunately, by that point, he had already shut down that part of his heart and couldn’t seem to open up to me an any real way other than just being kind to me. It hurt so bad that I only rarely call or write to him, especially since my legally-adoptive stepdad later treated me so horribly as well.

But none of this has anything to do with my question in this thread. Sorry. I can see that discovering the hidden cards has opened up some wounds that had started to heal, which is exactly why I said No Contact. Maybe someday, Jesus will show me how to let him heal me so that the pain isn’t so intense. Even then, the external circumstances of the situation are not likely to change in any significant way.

Then, mommamaree, I would tear up the cards and give the gift certificates to a childrens’ charity. Without a second thought. Don’t let her re-establish any contact with your children and trust your gut and the Holy Spirit that this is being done for ulterior purposes. Which means the “gifts” are tainted. Maybe next time your husband can just mark “Return to sender” on the cards and put them back in the mailbox for the postal carrier to pick up.

 

[Litcrit]

open the cards first and make sure they are appropriate for your children to read/see; you as the parent need to protect your children. Do send the thank you note and then go on with what is working for you and your family now.

Re: the cards. My first reaction would be to confiscate the cards and throw them away. Based on what you’ve disclosed, I would suspect that the cards/gifts are being sent as manipulation, not as a wholesome attempt to show love to the grandkids. I wouldn’t want them to get sucked into that.

Yes. If you’re even considering letting your kids see the cards, first read them and make sure they contain no manipulations.

In the case of the OP, that would be a lie. A woman like the OP’s bio-mother truly does not “care for” anyone else. She uses people for her own purposes. There’s no softening what a sociopath does.

Exactly. Children’s safety comes first, before offending a sociopath.

Really, a question to anyone who thinks “well, it’s their grandma, why not just let her see the kids?”: Would you let *your *kids spend time with a sociopath or psychopath? Would you let them hang out with anyone who’s been known to again and again cruelly hurt others - like a convicted pedophile or rapist or murderer? Would *you *like to be in the same room with them or even receive letters from them in your mail? Then how can you justify sacrificing little innocents to a person with a consistent history of abusing children?

 

[Luna_Lovecraft]

Re: the cards. My first reaction would be to confiscate the cards and throw them away. Based on what you’ve disclosed, I would suspect that the cards/gifts are being sent as manipulation, not as a wholesome attempt to show love to the grandkids. I wouldn’t want them to get sucked into that.

My only concern would be that at some point, when the children are older, Grandma will have the ability to communicate with them without going through you and I would not want to give her ammunition against you when that time comes. ie. will she play the sweet victim to them, and try to convince them that you are the manipulative one who never let them have contact with her? For this reason, I would consider having your dh look through the cards, and then either give them the cards and the gifts, or if the written part is inappropriate (and if your kids are capable of reading it), just to give the girls the gift cards.

Another possibility might be to send the gift certificates (or purchase items with them first and send those) to a group home or a shelter, or some other form of charity. When your kids get old enough to talk about it, you can be very honest with them about why you had to cut ties, and you can tell them that you felt like accepting her gifts for yourselves felt like manipulation, but passing them on to children with similar troubles that you were subjected to is a small way to to do some good with this bad situation. In this scenario, I wouldn’t send a thank you card, or a note asking again for no contact. That would just be another way that she has forced you into contact. Just let it be, and do what you have to do with the cards.

Agreed. 1,000% agreed.

Children always find out they didn’t get cards and gifts. They may not find out for years, but eventually it does get slipped into a conversation, whether intentionally and maliciously or quite innocently. If the kids ever encounter grandma or one of her allies - at a funeral, a family reunion, on Facebook, etc., etc. - the first question is going to be, “Did you get all of those cards?”

And when they find out that mom and dad withheld that stuff from them, who’s going to be the bad guy? It isn’t going to be grandma. It’s going to be mom and dad. Score another “victory” for grandma.

Much better to determine that there’s nothing untoward in the cards, allow the kids to have them if there isn’t, and have the kids write grandma thank you notes for them. That way it’s all above board, mom and dad are acting with honest and integrity, and grandma knows the gifts were received. It’s over that way. Grandma will not have any ammunition to use in the future against either her children or her grandchildren.

If there is something inappropriate about the cards, I still say hold on to them as “evidence” for when the kids are adult enough to understand why they were manipulative and/or inappropriate for children. That may seem overboard, but when you’re dealing with epic toxicity it really is better to have everything covered. The point is to give grandma a little ammunition as possible for all of her machinations.

OP, I am really sorry you have to go through this stuff with your mom. :hug1:

 

[EasterJoy]

Hi EasterJoy,
The boundaries I set were a completely No Contact period lasting at least six months, which would allow me to get through my pregnancy and postpartum period before having to reassess. I clearly explained no phone calls, no emails, no texts, no letters. She responded to my communication of the boundaries with a manipulative remark, which included questioning me about exceptions, like birthdays and Christmas. Since I had just explained No Contact, I ignored her “looking for loopholes”. Then I blocked her numbers so she couldn’t keep attempting communication.

I did this despite my awareness that this may just mean that I cannot have any communication with my niece. Unfortunately, my niece has played right into the abuse and manipulation my mother imposes on me and my oldest daughter. I love my niece, because she is my niece, but her behavior in the presence of my mother is just like my mother’s. She bullies my oldest daughter and treats me with disdain. When my mother is not around, however, she is a completely different child. She gets very clingy with me and wants to make sure that I love her and accept her. It is so heartbreaking. But my first duty is to my children and my family. I have no hope of changing the situation for my niece, and my sister has finally relinquished all custody and legal rights to her daughter this past year, because it was just a hopeless cause that our family could be reunited and she wanted to stop the drama. Since that day, I have seen (via Facebook only) that my sister is getting her life together, going to school, getting married to a military man. But my niece! She is going to have to grow up in that environment and look at what it did to me and my sister.

Then yes, you either destroy or give everything away to charity that comes to your home from your mom, regardless of who it is addressed to, and you explain why to your children when you feel they are old enough. You are wise to realize that while your niece may need an intervention, there is unlikely to be a way for you to be the one to do it that has any likelihood of success. Meanwhile, every way you could possibly try is going to suck you back into the drama. We are not put in a position to meet every need we see. Accepting where we are powerless is an important part of extricating ourselves from manipulative people and toxic situations. When the Serenity Prayer says there will always be “things I cannot change”, it does not mean those things are things that cannot be changed, after all. It means that changing them is not in our sphere of influence.

For now, you are right to see that in retrospect you would blame no one in your own past for seeing what the situation you were in and steering clear of your mom instead of trying to help you when you could not be helped by a person your mom was in any position to manipulate. Your niece is going to have to find her way out the way you did, and if she does, she will have your perspective and will understand fully why you did what you did. It may even be that she will have more courage to do what you did sooner because of your example.

You’re doing good. You know what part of the world is yours to parent and what part isn’t, and serenity requires that acceptance. It feels good to breathe, doesn’t it?

 

[newf]

When I finally cut my mom out of my life, I thought she should still be able to see her grandchildren.

Wrong. That only managed to confuse the kids and Mom’s bad behavior continued. So, I decided if she cannot manage to have a relationship with me, she will not have one with my kids.

She decided that my boundaries didn’t matter and she stopped the school bus one day to get on it to see my kids. Yes, she really did.

I spent YEARS trying to make things work with her to no avail. After being cut off, she sent letters to my kids. I just confiscated them and threw them out. Gifts were returned. And she got the message, sort of. She wasn’t invited to graduations or weddings. And now she has great grandchildren she has never seen. My kids want nothing to do with her. As they got older, they saw how she tore me up and that was enough for them.

All this to say OP, put your effort into YOUR family. That means you and your husband and your children. You need to be healthy. I think your kids do not need to be involved in any of this, so I would not let them have anything from her. If she can’t make it right with you, then she can’t have a relationship with your kids. Period.

And you need to let go of trying to save your niece. Your daughter is your concern. You can’t save everyone.

Enjoy your ‘mom free’ Christmas. You deserve it.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Or, the grandparent can use the grandchild as a pawn to further hurt and cause distress…

I agree. Which is why I suggest opening everything before passing it on. If there start to be subtle comments or other manipulative things, OP can shut right down. I totally advise caution.

 

[EasterJoy]

…you need to let go of trying to save your niece. Your daughter is your concern. You can’t save everyone…

I get the idea that she has done just that, and it is as praiseworthy as it is difficult to do. It is so hard for responsible people to convince themselves of the problems they see that are not theirs to address. If you don’t do that, though, you’ll never sleep in this old world. There are too many problems for anyone but God, and sometimes even God does not choose to intervene by doing. Sometimes, God intervenes by not doing. When we’re asked to do that, it takes a lot of faith and humility to accomplish.

 

[EasterJoy]

I agree. Which is why I suggest opening everything before passing it on. If there start to be subtle comments or other manipulative things, OP can shut right down. I totally advise caution.

Perhaps open it to be able to tell the kids what it was, but I agree with those who counsel not passing anything on at all. Even “safe” gifts can be used to set the hook, and where there is a manipulator, there is* always* a hook. Remember the story of the Trojan horse. If the grandmother cannot be trusted by the mother, then she cannot be trusted with the grandchildren. If she is to regain access, the grandmother will have to do the old-fashioned work of taking down the wall that she built herself. That’s all there is to it.

 

[mommamaree]

I get the idea that she has done just that, and it is as praiseworthy as it is difficult to do. It is so hard for responsible people to convince themselves of the problems they see that are not theirs to address. If you don’t do that, though, you’ll never sleep in this old world. There are too many problems for anyone but God, and sometimes even God does not choose to intervene by doing. Sometimes, God intervenes by not doing. When we’re asked to do that, it takes a lot of faith and humility to accomplish.

Yes, it is sooo painful, but also freeing at the same time. I love my niece, and do feel a sense of responsibility toward her, especially since my mother told me a few times when my sister was pregnant that she thought my husband and I should adopt my sister’s baby. The message that I am the responsible one and am therefore responsible for what happens to my niece came through loud and clear. Thankfully, my sister never thought that way, nor has she ever asked me to accept any responsibility for her daughter. Also thankfully, my husband was adamantly opposed to the idea of us adopting my niece, because he knew it would set up an unhealthy dynamic between my sister and me. I have been reminded repeatedly, by people who love me and are wiser than me about these matters, that while it is good that I love my niece, I am not the one who is responsible for her. On top of that my mother’s husband has adopted my niece, so even if my mother should pass away before my niece becomes an adult, she has a father, too, and she would be his responsibility. He is a good man, as far as I can tell, so maybe his steady influence will help to counteract my mother’s erratic behavior. (Except for the fact that she keeps saying she is gonna divorce him if she cannot otherwise enter the Catholic Church…)