How to handle estrangement from my mother when she sends cards to my children?

[Luna_Lovecraft]

Perhaps open it to be able to tell the kids what it was, but I agree with those who counsel not passing anything on at all. Even “safe” gifts can be used to set the hook, and where there is a manipulator, there is* always* a hook. Remember the story of the Trojan horse. If the grandmother cannot be trusted by the mother, then she cannot be trusted with the grandchildren. If she is to regain access, the grandmother will have to do the old-fashioned work of taking down the wall that she built herself. That’s all there is to it.

Except the hook might be to send cards/gifts knowing the OP will likely not pass them to the kids. And then play the victim down the road when the kids find out.

Only the OP can decide if her mom is likely to scheme like this. She’d be wise to at least be considered it before she and her husband start tossing things.

 

[newf]

Except the hook might be to send cards/gifts knowing the OP will likely not pass them to the kids. And then play the victim down the road when the kids find out.

Only the OP can decide if her mom is likely to scheme like this. She’d be wise to at least be considered it before she and her husband start tossing things.

I understand where you are coming from, and in a less severe situation, this would be a consideration. But I think the OP is dealing with a mom who will not have the opportunity to play the victim down the road because she will not be involved with the children, even as they grow up. OP’s mom is really bad news.

 

[EasterJoy]

Except the hook might be to send cards/gifts knowing the OP will likely not pass them to the kids. And then play the victim down the road when the kids find out.

Only the OP can decide if her mom is likely to scheme like this. She’d be wise to at least be considered it before she and her husband start tossing things.

She is going to scheme, manipulate, and try to play the victim no matter what the OP does. Even if she doesn’t, that is her choice, too. The OP has no power over her.

What is in the OP’s power is to set appropriate boundaries and to impose natural consequences for violators, especially habitual and unrepentant violators. That is what she is doing: that is, controlling her own life, letting her mother control her own, and accepting that letting her mother control her own life means not being able to pretend to have control over the consequences.

 

[mommamaree]

You know, the thing I find so unfortunate about all of this is that after years of emotional abuse and manipulation, now I am in a position where I must outmaneuver her. And from what I have read about sociopaths, you will never win when you go up against a sociopath. They will always outmaneuver you. My husband is inclined to use the gift cards on behalf of the kids and toss the cards, for this particular time. In the future, he intends to intercept any communication and screen and/or dispose of it before I have to come across it. He is capable of making calm, dispassionate decisions without getting whammied, whereas it will be a looooong time before that would be possible for me.

The reality is, it doesn’t matter if she sent the cards to manipulate me in the present, or to set me up to make me look bad when my children reach an age to interact with her without my presence or permission. It could be both, neither, or something else entirely. One thing I do know, and that is that there is always something attached to any gift and she never does it out of love or kindness. (And my youngest daughter’s birthday card came a month late, too.)

Another thought that I have today is that my children will know me, and they will be able to trust me. If I tell them the truth, at age-appropriate intervals, in response to their questions, they will have absolutely no reason to distrust me and to believe my mother’s lies. Who would she be to them at that point? A stranger, about whom they have been warned.

I am tired of manipulation. The idea of participating in these machinations, even as a hedge against her future lies, makes me want to vomit. I have always been an honest person. I want the best for my kids. If I do my job right, they will know that. Added to that, my whole family-by-marriage has been harrassed and have been witness to my mother’s “strangeness”. So, I think I will get off this “merry-go-round” and just focus upon staying sane and happy, and make straightforward choices and leave the strategies to my mother.

 

[maryjk]

Another thought that I have today is that my children will know me, and they will be able to trust me. If I tell them the truth, at age-appropriate intervals, in response to their questions, they will have absolutely no reason to distrust me and to believe my mother’s lies. Who would she be to them at that point? A stranger, about whom they have been warned.

This was something I had worried about.

But it was all for nothing. My son knows me and trusts me. His grandmother on the other hand is a stranger to him. He has no reason to believe anything she might say about me. And, as it turns out, he is not interested in a relationship with her.

 

[Luna_Lovecraft]

She is going to scheme, manipulate, and try to play the victim no matter what the OP does. Even if she doesn’t, that is her choice, too. The OP has no power over her.

What is in the OP’s power is to set appropriate boundaries and to impose natural consequences for violators, especially habitual and unrepentant violators. That is what she is doing: that is, controlling her own life, letting her mother control her own, and accepting that letting her mother control her own life means not being able to pretend to have control over the consequences.

It’s up to the OP to decide what those appropriate boundaries are, especially if her mother is someone with APD. People with APD don’t “get” things like rules and consequences, which is absolutely maddening to the people around them. Which is a big reason why so many family members try to put as much distance between the person with APD and themselves as soon as they can. It’s like a like a giant, 24/7, mentally exhausting game of chess. You have to always be thinking three, four, five, 10 steps a head.

The most any of us can do is present her with various ways to proceed based on our experience with manipulative/pathological/APD family. Definitive plans should only, in my opinion, be formulated with the counsel of a professional therapist with experience helping adult children heal from an “APD childhood”.

 

[EasterJoy]

You know, the thing I find so unfortunate about all of this is that after years of emotional abuse and manipulation, now I am in a position where I must outmaneuver her. And from what I have read about sociopaths, you will never win when you go up against a sociopath. They will always outmaneuver you. My husband is inclined to use the gift cards on behalf of the kids and toss the cards, for this particular time. In the future, he intends to intercept any communication and screen and/or dispose of it before I have to come across it. He is capable of making calm, dispassionate decisions without getting whammied, whereas it will be a looooong time before that would be possible for me.

The reality is, it doesn’t matter if she sent the cards to manipulate me in the present, or to set me up to make me look bad when my children reach an age to interact with her without my presence or permission. It could be both, neither, or something else entirely. One thing I do know, and that is that there is always something attached to any gift and she never does it out of love or kindness. (And my youngest daughter’s birthday card came a month late, too.)

Another thought that I have today is that my children will know me, and they will be able to trust me. If I tell them the truth, at age-appropriate intervals, in response to their questions, they will have absolutely no reason to distrust me and to believe my mother’s lies. Who would she be to them at that point? A stranger, about whom they have been warned.

I am tired of manipulation. The idea of participating in these machinations, even as a hedge against her future lies, makes me want to vomit. I have always been an honest person. I want the best for my kids. If I do my job right, they will know that. Added to that, my whole family-by-marriage has been harrassed and have been witness to my mother’s “strangeness”. So, I think I will get off this “merry-go-round” and just focus upon staying sane and happy, and make straightforward choices and leave the strategies to my mother.

You are right: Her motives are not important. The less you think about them, the better. What is important is that you have boundaries and you insist that others abide by them, including family. No maneuvering. Just a firm grasp on your family’s sanity and a firm insistence on whatever it takes to maintain it.

There are offensive relatives who “get” it and turn their lives around and finally establish healthy ties with their families. They work to do it, though. They don’t achieve it by “end around” methods. They don’t achieve it by violating reasonable boundaries or trying to short-circuit reasonable consequences. If your mom ever does stop her merry-go-round, she’ll realize that it is she who has the long hard task of demonstrating it.

 

[EasterJoy]

It’s up to the OP to decide what those appropriate boundaries are, especially if her mother is someone with APD. People with APD don’t “get” things like rules and consequences, which is absolutely maddening to the people around them. Which is a big reason why so many family members try to put as much distance between the person with APD and themselves as soon as they can. It’s like a like a giant, 24/7, mentally exhausting game of chess. You have to always be thinking three, four, five, 10 steps a head.

The most any of us can do is present her with various ways to proceed based on our experience with manipulative/pathological/APD family. Definitive plans should only, in my opinion, be formulated with the counsel of a professional therapist with experience helping adult children heal from an “APD childhood”.

Yes. If you have a mean dog that bites living next door, you can’t worry about how the poor animal got that way. You can’t worry about whether the animal can or cannot be rehabilitated. All you can do is to diligently see to the fence. (And, as you imply, consider whether the dog has given you or any family members a wariness towards dogs in general that deserves to be addressed, for your own sakes.)

 

[nurseryworker]

It sounds like your mom hasn’t respected your boundary of no-contact for 6 months. This strikes me as a manipulative way on her part to ignore your request and establish contact. Donate the gift cards to a worthy charity and toss the cards. I understand the internal struggle because I have to deal with a toxic mother myself. I’ve given chance after chance, set boundaries, had talks, had periods of no-contact - nothing works. Ultimately it was your mom who excluded herself from your life through her own choices. I hope you have a peaceful and happy Christmas with your husband, his family and your children!

 

[mommamaree]

It’s up to the OP to decide what those appropriate boundaries are, especially if her mother is someone with APD. People with APD don’t “get” things like rules and consequences, which is absolutely maddening to the people around them. Which is a big reason why so many family members try to put as much distance between the person with APD and themselves as soon as they can. It’s like a like a giant, 24/7, mentally exhausting game of chess. You have to always be thinking three, four, five, 10 steps a head.

The most any of us can do is present her with various ways to proceed based on our experience with manipulative/pathological/APD family. Definitive plans should only, in my opinion, be formulated with the counsel of a professional therapist with experience helping adult children heal from an “APD childhood”.

Yes! Absolutely. My mother has admitted that she doesn’t “get” boundaries, and she blames me and others for having boundaries, saying that we are the emotionally ill ones for needing boundaries. She will violate them over and over. Sometimes she will be told a boundary (like do not tell me about your sex life) and then she will IMMEDIATELY start talking to me about her sex life. One thing that was really helpful for me recently is when people here at CAF pointed out how I cannot put boundaries around her and her behavior (as in telling her not to talk about her sex life to me), but that I can and should put boundaries around myself (as in removing myself from conversation the instant she begins to talk about her sex life). I think someone likened it to the difference between me building a fence around my neighbor’s yard to keep them in (stupid and wrong) and building a fence around my yard to keep unruly neighbors out (smart and correct). Conversation may still take place at a fence, but I can walk away and leave the unruly neighbor outside my boundary at any moment. This was an awesome analogy, so thanks to whoever clarified this for me a few months ago.
The thing with my mother is, she goes after the fence-builder. Make the fence-builder (me) a slave before the fence can be completed and she need never worry about my boundaries keeping her out! And so I had to distance myself entirely. And that is simply natural consequences for her actions.
Anyway, boundaries and consequences have proved to be meaningless to her, at best, and infuriating, at worst…

 

[Luna_Lovecraft]

I am tired of manipulation. The idea of participating in these machinations, even as a hedge against her future lies, makes me want to vomit. I have always been an honest person. I want the best for my kids. If I do my job right, they will know that. Added to that, my whole family-by-marriage has been harassed and have been witness to my mother’s “strangeness”. So, I think I will get off this “merry-go-round” and just focus upon staying sane and happy, and make straightforward choices and leave the strategies to my mother.

I feel you, mommamaree.

If you don’t already have one, I would highly, highly, highly suggest that you seek out a therapist with experience in helping adult children heal from and cope with an APD parent. It helps just to talk about it with someone who’s trained on how to listen to you. My therapist has clients in their 70s who are still trying to come to terms with their APD parent. I’m 52, and I still struggle with it. I’ve been able to shield my husband and step-kids from the toxicity and insanity only because my mom doesn’t know they exist. If she found out about them, I have absolutely no doubt I would be in your shoes.

Again, I am so sorry you’re dealing with this.

 

[mommamaree]

I feel you, mommamaree.

If you don’t already have one, I would highly, highly, highly suggest that you seek out a therapist with experience in helping adult children heal from and cope with an APD parent. It helps just to talk about it with someone who’s trained on how to listen to you. My therapist has clients in their 70s who are still trying to come to terms with their APD parent. I’m 52, and I still struggle with it. I’ve been able to shield my husband and step-kids from the toxicity and insanity only because my mom doesn’t know they exist. If she found out about them, I have absolutely no doubt I would be in your shoes.

Again, I am so sorry you’re dealing with this.

Thank you.
I have tried the counseling route, and discovered that it felt foreign and uncomfortable to me. And yet, my amazing MIL and my husband have given me real help. I think if I didn’t have those two wonderful people in my life, I would definitely need professional counseling. I know counseling is helpful and important, but I am just opposed to the idea for myself at this time. But again, thank you very much.

 

[EasterJoy]

Yes! Absolutely. My mother has admitted that she doesn’t “get” boundaries, and she blames me and others for having boundaries, saying that we are the emotionally ill ones for needing boundaries. She will violate them over and over. Sometimes she will be told a boundary (like do not tell me about your sex life) and then she will IMMEDIATELY start talking to me about her sex life. One thing that was really helpful for me recently is when people here at CAF pointed out how I cannot put boundaries around her and her behavior (as in telling her not to talk about her sex life to me), but that I can and should put boundaries around myself (as in removing myself from conversation the instant she begins to talk about her sex life). I think someone likened it to the difference between me building a fence around my neighbor’s yard to keep them in (stupid and wrong) and building a fence around my yard to keep unruly neighbors out (smart and correct). Conversation may still take place at a fence, but I can walk away and leave the unruly neighbor outside my boundary at any moment. This was an awesome analogy, so thanks to whoever clarified this for me a few months ago.
The thing with my mother is, she goes after the fence-builder. Make the fence-builder (me) a slave before the fence can be completed and she need never worry about my boundaries keeping her out! And so I had to distance myself entirely. And that is simply natural consequences for her actions.
Anyway, boundaries and consequences have proved to be meaningless to her, at best, and infuriating, at worst…

The main thing is that your boundaries keep you sane. The world does have its fair share of people who cannot get why the rules apply to them. Oh, well. You can’t teach a pig to sing. You just frustrate yourself and annoy the pig.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

I think the advice that makes the most sense for my particular situation is to let my husband decide what to do with the cards. I also have the option of sending a card and gift certificate to my niece through my “dad’s” family, which just occurred to me. I think I will handle it that way, just to be safe. I am sure that his family will more than understand.
I have had to explain to my children briefly about what has happened with my mother, and I used words like “mind sickness” or “heart sickness” or “hurtful behavior”. I do not want to close the door forever on this relationship, but sociopathy is incurable. I do not want to slander my mother either, but my children deserved an explanation, especially since they were a witness to some of these “episodes”.

Strange thing is, they shrugged their shoulders and didn’t seem to care.
They are blessed with a loving and huge extended family on my husband’s side, the same wonderful people who welcomed me 2 decades ago when I was fleeing my childhood nightmare.

What you suggest above sounds like an excellent plan. Your husband has been such a rock for you and is capable of making the right decision. His family seem like a blessing too.

I’m just wondering about what would the giving of the cards to the kids mean for you. You said no contact and of course she violates it. Do you stick to your decision and not give the cards, or give the cards and do what your mom wants you to do? I’m not sure what I would do in your shoes, and it is only you who can answer that question for yourself. I’m sure you could get a good advice from your husband on this since he knows you best.

The way you explained the situation to your children sounds like something they can understand. I am not at all surprised that they seemed not to care too much. Kids are not dumb, they recognise weird and unhealthy behaviour. They could even be relieved they don’t have to deal with the weird grandmother anymore.

 

[mommamaree]

Thanks so much, everyone, for helping me navigate this situation.
Here is what I decided. I will ask my husband to pitch the cards. Then I will leave the use of the gift cards up to him. He can use them, pitch them, give them away, whatever. I don’t care and the children will not be informed.
With respect to my niece, I will either send a card with a gift card to her bio-mom, my sister, or to my “stepdad”. I will send nothing via my mother’s address for my niece.

I am grateful that my mother gave me life and a home to grow up in. But when my own mother admits she just does not care about my feelings, that she is not able to feel love, and that she thinks boundaries are for people with impure and cold hearts, then I will consider these admissions to be my walking papers. Very few people close to a sociopath will ever get such a confession. Mostly they just get destroyed.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Thanks so much, everyone, for helping me navigate this situation.
Here is what I decided. I will ask my husband to pitch the cards. Then I will leave the use of the gift cards up to him. He can use them, pitch them, give them away, whatever. I don’t care and the children will not be informed.
With respect to my niece, I will either send a card with a gift card to her bio-mom, my sister, or to my “stepdad”. I will send nothing via my mother’s address for my niece.

I am grateful that my mother gave me life and a home to grow up in. But when my own mother admits she just does not care about my feelings, that she is not able to feel love, and that she thinks boundaries are for people with impure and cold hearts, then I will consider these admissions to be my walking papers. ** Very few people close to a sociopath will ever get such a confession. Mostly they just get destroyed**.

:sad_yes::clapping::clapping:

My particular narcissist gave me a big clue when he was pressed about an issue and hissed out, “I don’t owe any of you ANYTHING!”

Bingo.

 

[EasterJoy]

Thanks so much, everyone, for helping me navigate this situation.
Here is what I decided. I will ask my husband to pitch the cards. Then I will leave the use of the gift cards up to him. He can use them, pitch them, give them away, whatever. I don’t care and the children will not be informed.
With respect to my niece, I will either send a card with a gift card to her bio-mom, my sister, or to my “stepdad”. I will send nothing via my mother’s address for my niece.

I am grateful that my mother gave me life and a home to grow up in. But when my own mother admits she just does not care about my feelings, that she is not able to feel love, and that she thinks boundaries are for people with impure and cold hearts, then I will consider these admissions to be my walking papers. Very few people close to a sociopath will ever get such a confession. Mostly they just get destroyed.

A difficult conclusion, it is painful that you have to make it, but a very good plan!

 

[LEMAITRE]

I wanted to respond to you, because you asked some specific questions that are important details, and I don’t think I have ever corresponded with you here at CAF before.

My husband and his family, and finally myself only recently, suspect she is a sociopath. Not just strict. Not just difficult. But actually quite dangerous. Her MO is to discover my weakness and then destroy me emotionally all the while denying her constant abuse.

My children are entitled to have a relationship with their grandmother, sure, just as I am entitled to have a relationship with my mother. Does entitlement mean necessity? No, not in a situation of abuse and manipulation. BTW, I have never trusted her to be alone with my children, ever, because I have always known that she was not a safe person.

I have sought professional help for this, and the counselour actually ended up advising me to do something that caused more pain to me, because she did not believe me when I tried to explain the severity of the problem. After that horrible incident, I stopped trusting my counselour and decided to rely upon the support of my close friends and my husband’s family, who are all familiar with my mother and her treatment of me.

I understand that I am always supposed to honour my parents, which is why I am not calling them out by name and slandering them, nor do I go around badmouthing them to my friends and inlaws. But having a confidante or two, and quietly making protective decisions with my husband is not dishonouring my parents.

Also, my mother does not do the best she knows how, because when I told her how much certain actions or words hurt me, guess what, she ramped up the abuse in exactly those areas. Those are the actions of a sociopath, not a mother who doesn’t know any better.

And finally, if I seem defensive, I guess I probably am. I am not at all angry with anyone here, so please no one should feel that I am. I have tried and tried, I have wept, I have prayed, and nothing works. And just to provide some perspective, my brother and sister have also cut off contact with my mother as well, because of her treatment of them.

None of us are experts, I am just starting off as a junior Doctor.

There are always two sides of a story and while I do appreciate you telling yours, I am mindful that I am not hearing the other persons version of events.

Has your mother been clinically diagnosed as a sociopath?

I do wonder why your mother is the way she is. Why does she behave as she does towards her children? There must be something underlying this behaviour, maybe something in her past or her childhood. I’m not excusing her behaviour but trying to understand where it stems from.

Sometimes the gap can be too wide to bridge and unfortunately that appears to be the case here. If her children are cutting off all contact with her, we would hope that she is taking a look at herself and seeking answers as to why she is repelling her children.

Like I said previously, there is no reason why you cannot supervise her access to the children, if it’s too much for you, maybe your husband can supervise that. I’m looking ahead to when your children grow up and wonder why they were deprived of that relationship, even if you thought it was the best for them, they may not view it the same way once they are adults. This is similar to feuding parents when one is kept from their children, the children grow up to be resentful of the parent who was present, genuinely trying to protect them and whose sole goal was their well-being.

I am an optimist, I don’t think any relationship is irreparable with genuine goodwill, counselling and effort by both parties.

Having been blessed with a wonderful, caring and present mother I could never imagine the hurt that you and your siblings have and continue to experience.

I am concerned that you are receiving and considering advice from others on CAF who have also had terrible relationships with their mothers. That advice may not be wise, professional, unbiased or neutral.

 

[nurseryworker]

**Having been blessed with a wonderful, caring and present mother I could never imagine the hurt that you and your siblings have and continue to experience. **

The most important thing any doctor can do is listen to their patient. Sadly, there are very few who do. You want to be a doctor that people flock to? L-I-S-T-E-N to your patient. If your patient says something is wrong, something is wrong. If your patient says something is working for them, then it’s working for them. The OP has said her anxiety has decreased and her emotional wellbeing has increased since imposing this period of no-contact. Why would you undermine her emotional wellbeing and potentially that of her children by advising her to put herself and her children in the presence of a possible sociopath?

 

[LEMAITRE]

**Having been blessed with a wonderful, caring and present mother I could never imagine the hurt that you and your siblings have and continue to experience. **

The most important thing any doctor can do is listen to their patient. Sadly, there are very few who do. You want to be a doctor that people flock to? L-I-S-T-E-N to your patient. If your patient says something is wrong, something is wrong. If your patient says something is working for them, then it’s working for them. The OP has said her anxiety has decreased and her emotional wellbeing has increased since imposing this period of no-contact. Why would you undermine her emotional wellbeing and potentially that of her children by advising her to put herself and her children in the presence of a possible sociopath?

Do you know if her mother is a clinically diagnosed sociopath or are you just speculating?

Be discerning. We are only getting one side of the story here. Part of our role is to be neutral and take all sides of the story into consideration and not judging based on one perspective.

Where in your professional opinion as a health expert have I undermined her well-being?

It’s interesting to me that you also have stated above that you have a toxic relationship with your mother, hardly a person to be giving neutral or professional advice.