How to intercept an abortion---confidentiality issue

[severus68]

Who said anything about stopping them? As I already posted once, sidewalk counselors talk to women going into clinics with the endorsement of the Diocese. They do not forcibly stop women. They give them advice, implore them, and pray with them.

Again, if we believe abortion is murder (which we do), I don’t really see much difference. If she wants to discuss it with her friend, that is between them. You can’t say it is different than if she had found out her friend was going to kill her husband, without explaining how it is different, since the Church make no such distinction.

You can say the Church does not endorse snooping, which I agree with, but once the information is out there, it becomes a lot more dicey. And that is what we are dealing with. Saying “she shouldn’t be in the profession she is in” is avoiding the fact that she already has the information (so she thinks). It is a little late for that advice, however valid it is in the future.

I know what they do. If they do try to forcibly stop abortions, they would get into trouble with the law. In this case, no one was approving abortion. Firstly, no one knows it was about an abortion, secondly, it was an invasion of privacy and breach of confidentiality.

If we want to discuss abortion and how we deal with those who are planning to abort, that should be in another thread.

 

[Julian_Bashir]

I know what they do. If they do try to forcibly stop abortions, they would get into trouble with the law. In this case, no one was approving abortion. Firstly, no one knows it was about an abortion, secondly, it was an invasion of privacy and breach of confidentiality.

If we want to discuss abortion and how we deal with those who are planning to abort, that should be in another thread.

Actually, that was the entire point of the topic and her question - what should she do? Read the first post.

I don’t think anyone disagrees with the right to privacy, and most of us acknowledged she may or may not have known about the abortion. She believes it was in fact going to be an abortion. I simply asked if you already had the information, regardless of how you came by it, that a friend was going to abort their child, what is the proper response? Complaining about the right to privacy after the fact accomplishes nothing about the specific information that was already known.

I also said that your reaction to knowing she was planning on killing her child should be the same as if she was going to kill her husband. I say that because as Catholics, we say we believe that abortion is murder, and that the child has as much right to life as any human, but there seems to be a disconnect in our logic when it comes to how we treat the two decision to kill. One is abhorrent and worthy of interrupting, but the other is a private matter that is none of our business? Why, if murder is murder?

 

[april32010]

I also said that your reaction to knowing she was planning on killing her child should be the same as if she was going to kill her husband. I say that because as Catholics, we say we believe that abortion is murder, and that the child has as much right to life as any human, but there seems to be a disconnect in our logic when it comes to how we treat the two decision to kill. One is abhorrent and worthy of interrupting, but the other is a private matter that is none of our business? Why, if murder is murder?

 

[severus68]

Actually, that was the entire point of the topic and her question - what should she do? Read the first post.

I don’t think anyone disagrees with the right to privacy, and most of us acknowledged she may or may not have known about the abortion. She believes it was in fact going to be an abortion. I simply asked if you already had the information, regardless of how you came by it, that a friend was going to abort their child, what is the proper response? Complaining about the right to privacy after the fact accomplishes nothing about the specific information that was already known.

I also said that your reaction to knowing she was planning on killing her child should be the same as if she was going to kill her husband. I say that because as Catholics, we say we believe that abortion is murder, and that the child has as much right to life as any human, but there seems to be a disconnect in our logic when it comes to how we treat the two decision to kill. One is abhorrent and worthy of interrupting, but the other is a private matter that is none of our business? Why, if murder is murder?

Then to be consistent with your reasoning, we should try to physically stop all abortions whatever the legal consequences and the OP should have asked her friend to stop the ‘abortion’ and have helped her…

 

[maryjk]

Actually, that was the entire point of the topic and her question - what should she do? **Read the first post. **

I don’t think anyone disagrees with the right to privacy, and most of us acknowledged she may or may not have known about the abortion. She believes it was in fact going to be an abortion. I simply asked if you already had the information, regardless of how you came by it, **that a friend was going to abort their child, what is the proper response? **Complaining about the right to privacy after the fact accomplishes nothing about the specific information that was already known.

I also said that your reaction to knowing she was planning on killing her child should be the same as if she was going to kill her husband. I say that because as Catholics, we say we believe that abortion is murder, and that the child has as much right to life as any human, but there seems to be a disconnect in our logic when it comes to how we treat the two decision to kill. One is abhorrent and worthy of interrupting, but the other is a private matter that is none of our business? Why, if murder is murder?

First, it isn’t a friend. It is an acquaintance. And there is a difference between what I would say to an acquaintance vs. a friend.

Second, if someone was going to murder their husband, I would call the police. Wouldn’t you? Would you do the same for someone having an abortion? Like it or not, society doesn’t see abortion as murder. So our options are limited as to what we can do.

And if you are in the medical profession, you options are even fewer.

 

[Julian_Bashir]

First, it isn’t a friend. It is an acquaintance. And there is a difference between what I would say to an acquaintance vs. a friend.

Second, if someone was going to murder their husband, I would call the police. Wouldn’t you? Would you do the same for someone having an abortion? Like it or not, society doesn’t see abortion as murder. So our options are limited as to what we can do.

And if you are in the medical profession, you options are even fewer.

Are options are limited by the legal system, not God’s laws. And of course, we have to be prepared to deal with legal consequences of our actions. But we aren’t called to hide behind unjust laws either. Again, we’ve had numerous counselors approach complete strangers going into clinics. Were they not minding their own business? No one is saying tackle the woman and hold her down. But if you believe a friend or acquaintance, or whatever, is going to kill their baby, you are well within your rights as their brother or sister to approach them and talk to them. I’d always rather err on saving a child’s life and pleasing God than worrying about something being “none of my business.”

 

[RoseMary131]

Are options are limited by the legal system, not God’s laws. And of course, we have to be prepared to deal with legal consequences of our actions. But we aren’t called to hide behind unjust laws either. … I’d always rather err on saving a child’s life and pleasing God than worrying about something being “none of my business.”

You are correct, Julian. Love is really all of our business.

Living the Gospel of Life is all of our business.

We are called to follow this out in a variety of ways.

We trust that God can show us how to do this.

Sometimes offering kind words “God bless you” can open someone up to speaking with you, even in a medical community. God can open the person’s heart to speak out to us – meaning we can speak as to how we were addressed.

Sometimes, “I’m praying for you” is enough for an abortion-minded mother to change her mind - even if no one speaks the word “abortion.”

We keep ourselves a tune to those around us and what they express. God will show us when the door is open and show us how much we can reveal. As the door opens more, we will know it is time to share even more.

Sometimes the person’s words on abortion are a bit buried in their conversation… spoken quickly and could be easily passed over.

Sometimes, it is after the abortion that someone speaks out to us. Women and men hurt from abortion. We need to be ready to offer them God’s love and places for healing.

Trust in God. Stay aware of what people communicate to you.

May we all see how God calls us each day in Living the Gospel of Life.

Our Lady of Guadalupe ~ Patroness of the Unborn ~ Pray for us.

 

[maryjk]

Are options are limited by the legal system, not God’s laws. And of course, we have to be prepared to deal with legal consequences of our actions. But we aren’t called to hide behind unjust laws either.

That is true, but the OP’s friend would have to be prepared to lose her job. If she needs that job and income to provide for her family, she might want to think twice about what she should do.

Again, we’ve had numerous counselors approach complete strangers going into clinics. Were they not minding their own business?

There is a big difference for a counselor to approach someone. The counselor is trained. Or at least I would hope the counselor is trained. Obviously the friend isn’t trained.

No one is saying tackle the woman and hold her down. But if you believe a friend or acquaintance, or whatever, is going to kill their baby, you are well within your rights as their brother or sister to approach them and talk to them.

Again, you may be morally right. But be prepared to lose your job if you work in the medical industry.

I’d always rather err on saving a child’s life and pleasing God than worrying about something being “none of my business.”

As I have said before, if someone had approached me, when I was on the OR schedule, for that might have looked like an abortion, I would have complained to the hospital and demanded that the person that saw the information “by accident,” be disciplined.

Yes, even if someone simply walked up to me and said, “I am praying for you.” My response would have been, “who are you and why are you praying for me?” Which of course would have opened the door for an abortion discussion.

 

[Do_Good_Then_Go]

You are correct, Julian. Love is really all of our business.

Living the Gospel of Life is all of our business.

We are called to follow this out in a variety of ways.

We trust that God can show us how to do this.

Sometimes offering kind words “God bless you” can open someone up to speaking with you, even in a medical community. God can open the person’s heart to speak out to us – meaning we can speak as to how we were addressed.

Sometimes, “I’m praying for you” is enough for an abortion-minded mother to change her mind - even if no one speaks the word “abortion.”

We keep ourselves a tune to those around us and what they express. God will show us when the door is open and show us how much we can reveal. As the door opens more, we will know it is time to share even more.

Sometimes the person’s words on abortion are a bit buried in their conversation… spoken quickly and could be easily passed over.

Sometimes, it is after the abortion that someone speaks out to us. Women and men hurt from abortion. We need to be ready to offer them God’s love and places for healing.

Trust in God. Stay aware of what people communicate to you.

May we all see how God calls us each day in Living the Gospel of Life.

Our Lady of Guadalupe ~ Patroness of the Unborn ~ Pray for us.

Agreed and listening and responding carefully and lovingly to what is said and what is not said when someone tells us they are considering an abortion or are having an abortion today or says something that makes us think the person wants us to ask more questions is of course the right thing to do provided we are indeed careful, loving and helpful in the way we do it.

Approaching someone out of the blue because we we think they may be having an abortion is not helpful or useful, and it’s ethically and legally wrong if it’s done because the person has become aware of private medical information in the course of their employment.

If a person works in a hospital where abortions may be performed, they have to abide by the rules or not work there. It’s as simple as that. And in the case in the OP, it wasn’t that abortions may be being performed in the facility, it was that the OP’s friend saw a name she knew on a document she shouldn’t have looked at (and yes, this can and does happen accidentally), and drew conclusions based on that. We don’t know what was actually going to take place, and neither does the OP’s friend.

The question in the OP was ‘can confidentiality be breached in this instance?’ and ‘can she seek out the woman?’ The answer is no. OP also said she has been praying all morning and asked if anything more can be done. Again, the answer is no.

 

[foundmyfaith]

Agreed and listening and responding carefully and lovingly to what is said and what is not said when someone tells us they are considering an abortion or are having an abortion today or says something that makes us think the person wants us to ask more questions is of course the right thing to do provided we are indeed careful, loving and helpful in the way we do it.

Approaching someone out of the blue because we we think they may be having an abortion is not helpful or useful, and it’s ethically and legally wrong if it’s done because the person has become aware of private medical information in the course of their employment.

If a person works in a hospital where abortions may be performed, they have to abide by the rules or not work there. It’s as simple as that. And in the case in the OP, it wasn’t that abortions may be being performed in the facility, it was that the OP’s friend saw a name she knew on a document she shouldn’t have looked at (and yes, this can and does happen accidentally), and drew conclusions based on that. We don’t know what was actually going to take place, and neither does the OP’s friend.

The question in the OP was ‘can confidentiality be breached in this instance?’ and ‘can she seek out the woman?’ The answer is no. OP also said she has been praying all morning and asked if anything more can be done. Again, the answer is no.

Exactly

 

[RoseMary131]

As I have said before, if someone had approached me, when I was on the OR schedule, for that might have looked like an abortion, I would have complained to the hospital and demanded that the person that saw the information “by accident,” be disciplined.

Yes, even if someone simply walked up to me and said, “I am praying for you.” My response would have been, “who are you and why are you praying for me?” Which of course would have opened the door for an abortion discussion.

If I saw someone I knew in a hospital setting where I worked and I knew that they were Christian, I would most likely say one of these statements, “I am praying for you.” “Do you mind if I pray for you?”, “God bless you.”, or “I’ll keep you in my prayers.”

If I knew they were not Christian, I would have a different greeting.

If I thought the person at the hospital was having an abortion, nothing I would say to them would let them know I “knew or thought” they were having an abortion. Only if they brought in the procedure would I respond to the current situation - and then - only what the person expressed - and only in a way that would not cause them any ill harm.

So, if you and I were friends or acquaintances and I worked at your hospital and saw you, I most likely would say, “Mary, I’m praying for you.” or “God bless you, Mary.”

I sorry that it offends you, its just how I speak to people and no one has expressed to me that it offends them.

If you then said to me “who are you and why are you praying for me”… it would not open a discussion about abortion. I would say, "Mary, I know you from class. I wanted to offer my prayers for you because you are in the hospital today. " If, I felt you appeared upset, I would say, “I’m sorry, I didn’t know it would offend you. Sorry.”

On a side note about praying outside of abortion mills which is not about this post: I don’t think side walk prayer warriors and helpers say “abortion” to the mothers as they invite them to come talk. Usually, its “I have something for you if you want to come down here to talk.” “You don’t have to do this.” “We can help you and your baby.” “We are praying for you.” “We have free ultrasounds across the street.”

Of course, loving, prayerful signs are out as well. Once the person or friend comes to the sidewalk, that’s when something more would be discussed on “pregnancy, baby, or abortion.”

If anyone is interested in learning how to pray or help outside of abortion mills, Helpers of God’s Precious Infants - a program by Msgr Philip J Reilly - can be of great value.

Even if you don’t expect to ever pray in those location, just reading the website or hand book is helpful, as we never know when we will encounter an abortion-minded person and feel God calling us to share His love.

Helpers of God’s Precious Infants helpersbrooklynny.org/mission2.htm

Helpers of God’s Precious Infants : “Let the Children Come to Me” Prayer Book
archindy.org/prolife/documents/HGPI.pdf

From the prayer book: “They must see love – not anger and confrontation.”

Prayer of Bishop Fulton Sheen
Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, I love you very much. I beg you to spare the life of the
unborn child that I have spiritually adopted who is in danger of abortion.

 

[RoseMary131]

Yes, even if someone simply walked up to me and said, “I am praying for you.” My response would have been, “who are you and why are you praying for me?” Which of course would have opened the door for an abortion discussion.

May all of us keep in mind that many post-abortive women say, “If someone, anybody, had told me they were praying for me, I would not have aborted my baby.”

If I passed someone in a hospital setting who I thought might be having an abortion, I would feel free to say a loving response that does not mention abortion… “I am praying for you.” or “I’ll say a prayer for you.”

With that open statement on prayer, it does not convey a notion of any procedure, I offer to God their needs. I also allow them to know I am asking God’s blessings upon them.

It may also be an answer to their prayer, and courage for them to change their mind if they are preparing or thinking of aborting their precious child.

In all cases where the mother is not preparing for an abortion… she still knows I am offering prayers to God for her and I never mentioned abortion.

 

[Julian_Bashir]

Agreed and listening and responding carefully and lovingly to what is said and what is not said when someone tells us they are considering an abortion or are having an abortion today or says something that makes us think the person wants us to ask more questions is of course the right thing to do provided we are indeed careful, loving and helpful in the way we do it.

Approaching someone out of the blue because we we think they may be having an abortion is not helpful or useful, and it’s ethically and legally wrong if it’s done because the person has become aware of private medical information in the course of their employment.

If a person works in a hospital where abortions may be performed, they have to abide by the rules or not work there. It’s as simple as that. And in the case in the OP, it wasn’t that abortions may be being performed in the facility, it was that the OP’s friend saw a name she knew on a document she shouldn’t have looked at (and yes, this can and does happen accidentally), and drew conclusions based on that. We don’t know what was actually going to take place, and neither does the OP’s friend.

The question in the OP was ‘can confidentiality be breached in this instance?’ and ‘can she seek out the woman?’ The answer is no. OP also said she has been praying all morning and asked if anything more can be done. Again, the answer is no.

There is no “answer” if she knows for a fact what is transpiring. It becomes a judgement call. The question is whether or not it was actually an abortion, and whether or not it would be rude to mention your knowledge since the OP should not have been privy to it.

I was arguing from the basis of the assumption that you know for a fact someone is going to get an abortion. If that is the case, telling the OP she has no business saying anything is merely an opinion. Like I said, we often say as Catholics abortion is no different than murder (in fact, we agree it is murder). I’d say when push comes to shove, situations like that test whether or not we actually believe that to our core, or simply say those words.

Legally speaking as Maryjk said, we need to be prepared for any legal ramifications of our actions, because abortion is legal, even if the law itself is unjust. and contrary to Divine law.

In this specific case, I’d be leery as well of saying anything, unless I knew for a fact that there was an abortion scheduled.

As far as sidewalk counselors go, often they are simply normal people who have taken pro-life training to equip them to make the case to women they encounter gong into clinics. The training is quite in depth and effective. They are not licensed counselors., obviously.

 

[RoseMary131]

Agreed and listening and responding carefully and lovingly to what is said and what is not said when someone tells us they are considering an abortion or are having an abortion today or says something that makes us think the person wants us to ask more questions is of course the right thing to do provided we are indeed careful, loving and helpful in the way we do it.

Approaching someone out of the blue because we we think**** they may be having an abortion is not helpful or useful, and it’s ethically and legally wrong if it’s done because the person has become aware of private medical information in the course of their employment.

I base this answers on how I see God working in my life and how I think I would go about this situation.

Provided I was working in a medical community, and I had a “thought” that someone was having an abortion and I knew them…

I would pray and listen to God. I would see where God led me throughout the day. Most likely this leading by God will be through the path another worker or supervisor sends me.

If I ended up in the path of the person, I would not feel it was “out of the blue”, I would feel it was God calling me.

I would never mention abortion. The person would not know I thought she was having an abortion.

(If she really was having an abortion, she most likely would be feeling everyone who passed her, from the time she got in the parking lot, “Knew” she was having an abortion. She most likely would be feeling very fragile. She might be very angry. She most likely would have already “aborted her baby in her mind” so as to be able to go through with this procedure.)

I would only speak as to what I picked up from her. I would let her bring up any discussion. I might ask simple open questions… if she began speaking…“is there anything I can do to help you?”

Maybe she would ask for prayers. Maybe should would open up her needs. If she asked for any help with the abortion, I would decline in a polite way that let her know I loved her and her baby. Again… none of what I would say would be said unless she began each area.

I don’t think it would be approaching someone out of the blue and I do think it would be both helpful and useful. This is how we can allow God to work in our lives.

 

[RoseMary131]

As far as sidewalk counselors go, often they are simply normal people who have taken pro-life training to equip them to make the case to women they encounter gong into clinics. The training is quite in depth and effective. They are not licensed counselors., obviously.

While some people call these Sidewalk Counselors, our diocese uses the term Sidewalk Helpers so no one thinks licensed counselor is implied.

The training you learn in compassion to the mothers can be applied when meeting someone other than at an abortion mill.

 

[Rence]

Casey’s dear friend did not call her on the phone to gossip about a patient.

Actually, that’s exactly what she did.
RoseMary131;11109739:

Maybe one day this friend is fired, hopefully none of our friends experience being fired. Being fired does not always mean shame.

In this case, it would be. Working in a hospital commands an ethic appropriate to the medical field. To be fired because one didn’t live up to that expectation is indeed a shame. By studying her catechism, or by consulting her priest, she will learn that.

 

[Rence]

If we want to discuss abortion and how we deal with those who are planning to abort, that should be in another thread.

The only appropriate response is to pray. Nothing more. The catechism will tell you that you can’t commit wrong to try and do right.

 

[Rence]

Are options are limited by the legal system, not God’s laws. And of course, we have to be prepared to deal with legal consequences of our actions. But we aren’t called to hide behind unjust laws either. Again, we’ve had numerous counselors approach complete strangers going into clinics. Were they not minding their own business? No one is saying tackle the woman and hold her down. But if you believe a friend or acquaintance, or whatever, is going to kill their baby, you are well within your rights as their brother or sister to approach them and talk to them. I’d always rather err on saving a child’s life and pleasing God than worrying about something being “none of my business.”

The part you don’t seem to understand is that you are NOT within your rights to approach them and talk to them. If that were the case, you would be lining up at hospital OR waiting rooms chomping at the bit waiting for opportunities to approach them and talk to them. But we don’t do that, do we? Because it’s not our right to do so. You can err on whatever side you want, but you wouldn’t be working in the healthcare field very long.

 

[Rence]

would be rude to mention your knowledge since the OP should not have been privy to it.

I was arguing from the basis of the assumption that you know for a fact someone is going to get an abortion. If that is the case, telling the OP she has no business saying anything is merely an opinion.

Now that is your opinion, and you’re entitled to it. However, if you act on your opinion, in the circumstance presented in the OP, be prepared to lose your job, get fined, and/or possibly get sued. And that, in fact, is not an opinion.

 

[Canuck000]

This is certainly a breach of privacy, of which immediate dismissal can and does occur. The hospitals are all connected by computer systems now. She wouldn’t have to even work in or near the OR area to bring up the list of scheduled surgeries for the day.

It’s also a breach of HIPPA for a hospital worker to look at THEIR OWN or their family’s record. Many dismissals are occurring these day for this.

What the OP’s friend did was VERY wrong. End of story.