How to Interpret 2 Samuel 24 Census and Plague?

[ethereality]

Today’s reading from the Old Testament recounts David’s census and the Lord’s plague as punishment: [BIBLEDRB]2 Sm 24:2-17[/BIBLEDRB] What is the meaning of this passage? Why was this a bad act? Why did God punish David by killing other people? What did those 70,000 do to warrant death that the rest did not? If they were killed simply because of David’s sin, then what about God saying that everyone will be punished for their own sins?

 

[TimothyH]

For me personally, it is a story of lack of trust in God.

A second time the angel of the LORD called to Abraham from heaven and said: “I swear by my very self—oracle of the LORD—that because you acted as you did in not withholding from me your son, your only one, I will bless you and make your descendants as countless as the stars of the sky and the sands of the seashore; your descendants will take possession of the gates of their enemies, and in your descendants all the nations of the earth will find blessing, because you obeyed my command.” (Genesis 22:15-18)

Adam and Eve didn’t trust God and ate the fruit. God had led the Israelites through the Red Sea and destroyed Pharoah, and even so they didn’t trust God that he would feed them in the desert and so they complained and wanted to go back to Egypt. God stopped the flooded Jordan River so that the nation of Israel could cross, and then he destroyed the walls of Jericho with trumpet blasts, but they still didn’t trust him and so send out spies to see if they could defeat the people who inhabited the land. God was their King but they wanted to be like the other nations and cried, “No, we must have a king!”

Israel fails to trust God. They second guess God over and over and over. And that is what I see here. David knew God’s promises - that the descendents of Abraham would be more numerous than the sands of the seashore and that he himself would lead them to victory in battle, but he counted the people and the soldiers anyway, just to be sure. He knew God’s promises but didn’t trust God, and second guessed God, and counted the soldiers.

And we do the same too. We hold something in reserve just to be sure. We log on to the online banking and check the balance every day, knowing that it is the same this morning as it was last night. And we worry endlessly about what we will eat and where we will live. We do the same thing too. We don’t trust God.

Mother Angelica started EWTN with $250. She had a vision and trusted God, and knew that if she failed, it was God’s will that she not succeede.

Mother Theresa went to Calcutta with the clothes on her back, a rosary and about fourty dollars. She got off the plane, went to the nearest rectory, knocked on the door and said, “Jesus wants me to sleep here tonight.” That’s trust.

He [God] took him outside and said: Look up at the sky and count the stars, if you can. Just so, he added, will your descendants be. Abram put his faith in the LORD, who attributed it to him as an act of righteousness. (Genesis 15:5-6)

If you can… David tried to count the stars.

-Tim-

 

[Gorgias]

David knew God’s promises - that the descendents of Abraham would be more numerous than the sands of the seashore and that he himself would lead them to victory in battle, but he counted the people and the soldiers anyway, just to be sure. He knew God’s promises but didn’t trust God, and second guessed God, and counted the soldiers.

This is exactly the cultural context of this reading! In fact, the Israelites considered it sinful to take a census, since knowledge of the scope of God’s people was considered to be His right alone. In a weird kind of way, it’d be like counting your neighbor’s sheep, or going into his wallet and counting through his cash. It just asks the question, “why do you care? Why can’t you stop butting into my business?”

He [God] took him outside and said: Look up at the sky and count the stars, if you can. Just so, he added, will your descendants be. Abram put his faith in the LORD, who attributed it to him as an act of righteousness. (Genesis 15:5-6)

If you can… David tried to count the stars.

Well… there’s something else going on in this passage from Genesis. (Hint: what time was it when God asked Abram to count the stars?)

Now, back to the OP’s question: if it was David’s sin, why kill “innocent” Israelites?

Let me ask you: when we consent to a leader, do we bear any responsibility in his/her actions, if s/he commits a sin? (I think a number of Catholics might be asking themselves precisely that question right now, in the aftermath of the HHS contraception mandate.)

I think that God punished the nation of Israel for the act that its leader committed in their name. To David’s credit, though, he took responsibility. Notice, too, how David makes his decision in the punishment he chooses: he’s already recognized that Israel’s fate is in God’s hands, not in the hands of other people. So, he asks for a punishment that explicitly puts Israel at the mercy of God (not the mercy of Israel’s neighbors).

The punishment Israel bears is one that teaches them that they rely on God and God alone.

Does that help?

 

[po18guy]

Compare this with the parallel in 1 Chronicles 21:1-30. But, note that the first verse speaks more plainly:

1 Chronicles 21
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

And Satan rose up against Israel: and moved David to number Israel.

Here, the “anger of the Lord” is spoken of as the devil.

 

[stevekehl]

A few things to keep in mind.

1. Death is not a punishment for those who have faith in God.
2. Those 70,000 were destined to die eventually. So God robbed them of nothing except some time, which Scripture compares to grass thrown into the fire. None of us is guarenteed tomorrow
3. David’s sin was pride in the size of his kingdom and the breadth of his power. So God’s consequence was related to the sin.
   4.This consequence would have fallen harder on David. If David had suddenly died the kingdom would have been thrown into turmoil and probably war until a new king took over. Tens of thousands could have been killed in the process, but David’s troubles would be over. In addition, the social disruption would have made ruling much more dificult.

 

[ChrAug]

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 18:3-4[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[bogeydogg]

I think the sin is that David failed to trust God. By this time God David had grown old and God had given him victory all around so to count the people was a useless act which spoke of a mistrust of God and David knew better.

As far the “innocent” there are none, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. One may argue, “What about children” but its not for nothing that we baptize infants. (even though I don’t agree with Calvin’s assertions that we are born little more than base animals guilty of sin even in the womb)

And yes of course a nation may fall under cursing because of its leaders as happened again and again in Israel and Judah and Egypt, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, etc.

God punishes nations because of the actions of their leaders because all govt is ordained by God and so a rebellious govt speaks of a rebellious nation, and what is a nation if not its people?

God Bless

 

[TimothyH]

Well… there’s something else going on in this passage from Genesis. (Hint: what time was it when God asked Abram to count the stars?)

As the sun was about to set…

It’s daytime. DOH!

Thanks for that.

-Tim-

 

[po18guy]

A few things to keep in mind.

1. Death is not a punishment for those who have faith in God.
2. Those 70,000 were destined to die eventually. So God robbed them of nothing except some time, which Scripture compares to grass thrown into the fire. None of us is guarenteed tomorrow

In these points, I think that you might be overlaying Christian belief upon a yet-developing Judaism. There is little evidence that resurrection was a widely, or even a narrowly held view in David’s time (1,000-960 B.C.). The book of Job, written in the interim between David and Jesus (400-500 B.C.) gives no indication of a belief in the resurrection - actually quite the opposite:

Job 7:7-9
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
Remember that my life is but wind, and my eyes shall not return to see good things. Nor shall the sight of man behold me: thy eyes are upon me, and I shall be no more. As a cloud is consumed, and passeth away: so he that shall go down to hell shall not come up.

Indeed, the first use of the term “resurrection” is in the book of 2 Maccabees, which spans a time frame that is devoid of scripture in protestant (66 book) bibles:

**2 Maccabees 7:9
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
9And when he was at the last gasp, he said thus: Thou indeed, O most wicked man, destroyest us out of this present life: but the King of the world will raise us up, who die for his laws, in the resurrection of eternal life.

2 Maccabees 7:14
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
14And when he was now ready to die, he spoke thus: It is better, being put to death by men, to look for hope from God, to be raised up again by him: for, as to thee thou shalt have no resurrection unto life.

2 Maccabees 12:43
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
43And making a gathering, he twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, **

A millennium after David, the Pharisees had developed a belief in a resurrection, but the Saduccees held neither to the existence of angels, nor of the resurrection. I believe that it is safer to say that death, in David’s time, was held to be the end of the individual. Since the Hebrew kingdom was worldly, and the Kingdom of God had yet to be preached by the Son of Man, is it not more accurate to say that there was a willingness to fight for survival in David;'s day, versus the later Christian willingness to die in belief?

 

[Gorgias]

In these points, I think that you might be overlaying Christian belief upon a yet-developing Judaism. There is little evidence that resurrection was a widely, or even a narrowly held view in David’s time (1,000-960 B.C.).

I believe that it is safer to say that death, in David’s time, was held to be the end of the individual.

This is a completely valid and historically accurate point.

The way you laid it out made me think – in a way, is God’s punishment of David’s sin a demonstration to David of “hey – they’re mine, not yours; I, not you, hold the power of life and death over my people, so lay off, already…”?!?

 

[Pitcharan]

… What is the meaning of this passage? Why was this a bad act?

David had started off with such great faith and only relied on God for victory:
David said to the Philistine, “You come against me with sword and spear and javelin, but I come against you in the name of the LORD Almighty, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied. This day the LORD will deliver you into my hands, and I’ll strike you down and cut off your head. This very day I will give the carcasses of the Philistine army to the birds and the wild animals, and the whole world will know that there is a God in Israel. All those gathered here will know that it is not by sword or spear that the LORD saves; for the battle is the LORD’s, and he will give all of you into our hands.” (1Sam 17:45-47)

He had now now started to grow a little proud because of many victories. He tried to assess his own strength to take on the enemy and started enumerating able men who could fight. Trusting own strength even after tasting providential victory is truly VERY BAD.

Why did God punish David by killing other people?

To bring him back to his senses

What did those 70,000 do to warrant death that the rest did not? If they were killed simply because of David’s sin, then what about God saying that everyone will be punished for their own sins?

Sin has its obvious consequences not only on the sinner but also on others. If a father is a drunkard and a wife-beater, the whole family suffers for no fault of theirs. We can’t blame God for the natural consequences of our sins. Moreover, all suffering on earth however severe, is only purgative and cannot be called punishment. The only true punishment is eternal death.