How to justify belief in God? to move from agnosticism to knowledge or conviction?

[St_Francis]

Ethereality,
You seem to be unhappy in Japan. Is it possible that your unhappiness in Japan has colored your vision? That everything looks bleak because you are seeing through sorrow?

 

[Charles041]

Hi I fell into agnosticism for many years, so I thought I’d chime in on my personal story back to the faith rather than tell you what you should do.

I could never grasp the concept of microbes->fish->amphibian->reptile->mammal->me happening randomly on it’s own. Everything I see around me is a masterpiece from the inside out. Far to neat and logically arranged for random chance.

I was baptized Catholic, but left the faith as soon as I grew up and had a choice to do so.
In my late 20’s I began asking myself the hard questions. Who am I? Why am I here? Where am I going?

I researched a lot into the oldest religions and cultures I could find, ancient egypt and Summarian mostly I was already well learned in greek, and norse mythology. I came across several what I thought were legitimate claims that there was pagan similarities in Catholicism, so in an effort to research further I started attending mass on Sundays. I sat in the back and tried to spot out pagan like artwork, or dissect pieces of the bible that I thought could be alien instead of God.

Then I decided to take it one step further and started listening to the bible on audio book. I listened to the bible about 4 times through when I finally decided, what the hey I’m going to confession. If God is an alien then I only waste a few minutes of my time, but if he is real than I’ll have made him happy. Can’t lose. It felt good to confess and receive communion, but I thought psychology anyone would feel good to be told that your creator has forgiven and loves you. So I brushed it aside. I was receiving communion about every 6 months, but still going to mass on Sunday towards the end of my agnosticism I really wasn’t sure what I was doing in mass. It just seemed like a good place to think, and relax, Catholic mass is after all very peaceful compared to the party time that is protestant mass.

Life turned bad and for the first time in my life i started having a financial crisis, the company I worked for was begging to fold and I had quite alot of finances to pay out every month. In my desperation I prayed to the God of the bible. I asked him what I should do with my life and to my surprise he spoke back to me. Giving me clear simple instructions on how to be “happy.”

I’ve since decided to give the rest of my life to Jesus. I married my girlfriend, researched my faith and was just confirmed two weeks ago. I feel the real presence of God in the eucharist, when I confess my sins I literally feel weight being taken from my body, I’ve seen Jesus and Mary in my thoughts and in my dreams which is more than I can say for any other false god I studied.

One of his instructions was to get to know the church.

My question for you is do you just go to mass and leave right away? Have you ever got to know your priest or do you just shake his hand at the end of mass and scurry back home?

My priest suggested something called deliverance healing, and I couldn’t see Jesus or Mary in my thoughts until I went through it. If you believe in a God than likewise you believe in Satan. People don’t give Satan enough credit for his ability to block our communication with God. Instead of reading about finding proof of God may I suggest you read about strengthening your communication with God. There really is no proof quite like seeing and hearing him after all.

Here are some good books to read on the subject of deliverance ministry. They are quick reads too, cause I read one of your previous posts saying you’re sick of reading.

amazon.com/Unbound-A-Practical-Guide-Deliverance/dp/0800794125

amazon.com/Resisting-Devil-Catholic-Perspective-Deliverance/dp/1592767095/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1424542469&sr=1-1&keywords=resisting+the+devil

 

[rweidn]

John Lennox speaks well on the subject of suffering and God, find him on Youtube. If you agree with athiests that suffering unfairly disproves God you can kid yourself that you have solved the problem but you notice you have not removed the problem itself. What you have removed is any hope,Suffering with God taken out of the equation truly is meaningless. In the end you have to accept that life has very rough edges and the question to ask yourself is if you can trust God with the rough edges. Then moving on to Christianity you see God suffering on a cross, showing us that God is not dispassionate at human suffering but enters into it. And he is not the God of the gaps he is the God of everything we know eg science and everything we don’t know eg the gaps.

 

[benotagoat]

I want you to better understand my situation, and why what you say saddens me instead of comforts me. I am not surrounded by people who love me. I am alone. I can only interact with some of my family, friends, and associates digitally – this means staring at a computer screen, and I have a few friends or acquaintances here with whom communication is difficult and with whom I cannot be intimate. I have received gifts from numerous people which have improved my quality of life (e.g. winter clothing, food), but which have done little to ease more than temporarily that -]numb emptiness/-] desolation I feel – that “God-shaped hole” I keep trying to fill unsuccessfully with the Eucharist. (Perhaps my problem is emotional, and spiritually I am in great shape, though.)

You tell me God is present, though. So I go to church, even to Mass, and what do I experience? A cold building, a language I mostly do not understand (Japanese), the appearance of bread, a wooden box, one stained-glass window depicting Jesus, and silence. “God is not absent. God is present constantly in our love for one another!” I hope you have some idea how hollow these words are for me, especially when you note Matthew 8:2-3 and Matthew 9:20-22 in contradistinction to my reception of the Body of Christ, so much more than the tassel of His cloak. I’ve also prayed that if it’s not God’s will to heal me, that He make this point clear to me, etc., but again, no direct response from God – only direct responses from human beings.*

As another has said, this world is basically what I would expect to find if atheism were true. Nonetheless, I do my best to continue keeping faith and hoping, hoping to awake in the morning healed, hoping Jesus will return this day, hoping to be healed when or after I receive the Eucharist the next time, hoping God will grant my other petitions and that the world will improve, etc.

• I’m saying “direct response” here to give you the benefit of the doubt – I have not yet read an answer to my question regarding the distinction between divine and human agency, so I’m leaving open the possibility that a direct answer from humans may also be an indirect answer from God, although this seems unfair, not how a father would treat his son.

It is easier now to understand where you are coming from,but you did not put any of this in your first post,so you could not get the answers you need .

I do not have time to say much now ,but Japan is an atheist culture overall .The Light of God is not infused into the minds and hearts of the people and is not part of the culture ,nor the history.
So yes you are experiencing what one feels in such a deprived situation .
One individual Church is not enough to create the change that is needed .

I have to say that I am not talking to you as a catholic as I find all that I need in a personal relationship with God and those who love Him ;That is what I found when I left, in reading what God Himself says unfiltered by mens interprétations, which were after all made for a primitive Church and not those who can read themselves .Each of us have to search for God in our own way ,and have the right to do so .
IIn France where I live there is a different atmosphere as people do not try to bully people
anymore, and each person can genuinely give their own opinions without being ostracised, like before .
To follow your faith may mean you need to change countries until you are strong again ,and then maybe you will be able to convince the Japanese why you are a christian.

 

[ethereality]

Why should God give us each our own personalized proof?

Are you prepared to say that Fr. Larry Richards (guest on Catholic Answers and fairly popular on EWTN) is full of nonsense in his regard for us having “personal relationships” with God? It is the other end of this question. A personalized proof is nothing more than experiencing a personal relationship. I know my parents exist because they interact with me personally. Fr. Richards argues in his book Be a Man! that the fundamental way we know that God exists is because we have a relationship with Him.

Was sending His Son to us insufficient? Was Christ’s death on the cross insufficient?

You’ll need to be more specific. Usually when people use this language they are referring to salvation.

As I think I’ve already said, arguing about literally ancient history is a difficult matter, so to be blunt, if you mean to ask if this ancient history is sufficient to convince any reasonable person: No, it is not, because it is uncertain. To put a point on this: We’re not even sure about everything that’s going on in Syria or Afghanistan right now, or the Iraq War ten years ago. How much more uncertain are the events of 2,000 years ago, with far less documentation.

 

[St_Francis]

Are you prepared to say that Fr. Larry Richards (guest on Catholic Answers and fairly popular on EWTN) is full of nonsense in his regard for us having “personal relationships” with God? It is the other end of this question. A personalized proof is nothing more than experiencing a personal relationship. I know my parents exist because they interact with me personally. Fr. Richards argues in his book Be a Man! that the fundamental way we know that God exists is because we have a relationship with Him.

Well, Fr Richards and I are talking about two different things. He is talking about a personal *relationship, *I was talking about personal *proof, *which is what you seem to want.

You’ll need to be more specific. Usually when people use this language they are referring to salvation.

What I was talking about was proof of God’s existence and care for us.

[auote]As I think I’ve already said, arguing about literally ancient history is a difficult matter, so to be blunt, if you mean to ask if this ancient history is sufficient to convince any reasonable person: No, it is not, because it is uncertain. To put a point on this: We’re not even sure about everything that’s going on in Syria or Afghanistan right now, or the Iraq War ten years ago. How much more uncertain are the events of 2,000 years ago, with far less documentation.
Well, gee, lots of people believe in the idea that the earth was created *billions *of years ago. Few seem to have difficulty believing in the existence of dinosaurs *millions *of years ago. Even young-earth creationists believe in the Egyptian pharoahs from thousands of years ago.

People who say what you have just said have often been led astray by certain arguments made about the reliability of the evidence provided for the existence and divinity of Christ. These arguments are dealt with directly by Fr Most in the online book I linked earlier in this thread. Check it out.

 

[ethereality]

Well, Fr Richards and I are talking about two different things. He is talking about a personal *relationship, *I was talking about personal *proof, *which is what you seem to want.

You didn’t engage my argument: A personal relationship is personal proof. They are not two separate things: I have proof my parents exist because I have a relationship with them. That is why I have asked how we know we have a relationship with God, because it’s not clear from introspection or a cursory glance at anyone else that anyone actually does.

What I was talking about [regarding whether Jesus was insufficient] was proof of God’s existence and care for us.

Whether Jesus claimed to be God, etc. apparently rests on assumptions, not empirical evidence like you suggest. (E.g. Bart Ehrman asserts the tomb was an embellishment, that those crucified usually had their bodies picked by scavengers and then tossed into a mass grave.) So apparently you cannot present this as “something God obviously did for you” in the same way my parents obviously bought me a plane ticket to come visit them. Knowledge of the past is not like knowledge of the present.

(My use of apparently: I mean, according to scholarship, God expecting us to use our reason and the scientific method when applicable, as with history.)

As I think I’ve already said, arguing about literally ancient history is a difficult matter, so to be blunt, if you mean to ask if this ancient history is sufficient to convince any reasonable person: No, it is not, because it is uncertain. To put a point on this: We’re not even sure about everything that’s going on in Syria or Afghanistan right now, or the Iraq War ten years ago. How much more uncertain are the events of 2,000 years ago, with far less documentation.

Belief in inconsequential theories is different from beliefs in life-changing theories in two respects: Evidence needed to justify belief, and conviction of belief.

When you say “few seem to have difficulty believing in dinosaurs,” what you mean is that most don’t see it as anything to argue about, and just accept the presented theory as, “Fine, whatever.” If scientists were to come out today and say that 1% of the dinosaurs they posited actually existed (e.g. they were wrong about fossil formation or bone combination), it really wouldn’t make any difference to us, and most wouldn’t care to argue about the new theory. Most of us wouldn’t need any more evidence that the new theory was better than the previous one except an appeal to authority, i.e. the person making the claim is an expert in the field.

By contrast, claiming God intervened in history requires a great deal of evidence, and one must base his entire life around the claim. I hope you see now how the examples you’ve given are obviously different from the topic at hand.

People who say what you have just said have often been led astray by certain arguments made about the reliability of the evidence provided for the existence and divinity of Christ. These arguments are dealt with directly by Fr Most in the online book I linked earlier in this thread. Check it out.

Fr Most’s writings you linked are in my reading list, thanks.

 

[D0UBTFIRE]

What are your thoughts on these matters? How can I move from agnosticism to conviction? What is God waiting for? How do we persuade people to be Christian? Why hasn’t God given me more faith, despite so frequently praying for it? Why does God continue letting us suffer? Why hasn’t He returned yet?

I’m in the same sad state of affairs as you. I started with conviction, but the more I read, learned and experienced the more I doubted. About a year ago I realized I was living as an agnostic Christian.

I ended up not going to mass anymore in November…

I’m prone to extremism. When I was following Catholicism, I was like a fundie Catholic. You can imagine what I mean. When I embraced atheism, I basically became a nihilist. It was utterly depressing. I can’t do it. I rather trick myself into believing than have such a depressing world view. But it’s not so easy LOL because the doubts - and well, the lack of actual evidence and the seemingly equal likeliness of atheism.

But ultimately I’ve decided that the Universe got here somehow, and believing it happened by itself requires as much faith as believing that God did it. Maybe that won’t be true in a future scientific age - but for our time, both take equal amounts of faith. At least in my mind. So, if I have to choose, I’ll choose what brings me most comfort and meaning. As for Jesus, that one is harder to swallow, but there’s this: reasonablefaith.org/the-resurrection-of-jesus
It’s not concrete evidence, but it’s sufficient to make me feel like it’s possible that the Gospels are telling the truth. Make sense?

Besides that, there is your relationship with God. I remember times where I received a lot of consolation from God, but the past couple of years were filled with desolation. No hint of Him anywhere. Like He disappeared. Like all the previous experiences of Him that I had had were only in my mind… But now, now that I’m trying to embrace a very basic level of faith, now that I’m trying to find God from scratch again, I’ve received a lot more consolation than I’ve had in a long time. A link to fill you in a little on desolation if you’ve never heard of it: spiritualdirection.com/2011/11/07/consolation-and-desolation-what-does-it-really-mean

What I’m saying is that sometimes the reason to believe is not a reason that can be shown to others through proof but just something that you experience if you are truly seeking God. (Edit: By no means am I saying that you aren’t truly seeking God. I was thinking of the Japanese that you were referring to and about evangelizing to them and how it’s through their own experiences of seeking God that they will come to believe.)

As for evangelizing, I would say that even though atheism may be as reasonable as Christianity in regards to the evidence, I think that if a Christian has joy and lives their life the right way, this will catch anyone’s attention - they might at first think “well, whatever works for him” (relativism, like you said) but eventually they will think “I want what he has”. Make sense?

 

[D0UBTFIRE]

I want you to better understand my situation, and why what you say saddens me instead of comforts me. I am not surrounded by people who love me. I am alone. I can only interact with some of my family, friends, and associates digitally – this means staring at a computer screen, and I have a few friends or acquaintances here with whom communication is difficult and with whom I cannot be intimate. I have received gifts from numerous people which have improved my quality of life (e.g. winter clothing, food), but which have done little to ease more than temporarily that -]numb emptiness/-] desolation I feel – that “God-shaped hole” I keep trying to fill unsuccessfully with the Eucharist. (Perhaps my problem is emotional, and spiritually I am in great shape, though.)

You tell me God is present, though. So I go to church, even to Mass, and what do I experience? A cold building, a language I mostly do not understand (Japanese), the appearance of bread, a wooden box, one stained-glass window depicting Jesus, and silence. “God is not absent. God is present constantly in our love for one another!” I hope you have some idea how hollow these words are for me, especially when you note Matthew 8:2-3 and Matthew 9:20-22 in contradistinction to my reception of the Body of Christ, so much more than the tassel of His cloak. I’ve also prayed that if it’s not God’s will to heal me, that He make this point clear to me, etc., but again, no direct response from God – only direct responses from human beings.*

As another has said, this world is basically what I would expect to find if atheism were true. Nonetheless, I do my best to continue keeping faith and hoping, hoping to awake in the morning healed, hoping Jesus will return this day, hoping to be healed when or after I receive the Eucharist the next time, hoping God will grant my other petitions and that the world will improve, etc.

• I’m saying “direct response” here to give you the benefit of the doubt – I have not yet read an answer to my question regarding the distinction between divine and human agency, so I’m leaving open the possibility that a direct answer from humans may also be an indirect answer from God, although this seems unfair, not how a father would treat his son.

It is possible that you are lonely. That can lead to depression. Humans are social creatures…you need to get out and make some friends! Join something. Just because you’re Christian doesn’t mean you are immune to mental health problems. Isolation isn’t good for you.

Also, regarding your other comments about reading… I too was very big on reading about religion to the point that I just got utterly frustrated. My therapist suggested I learned to trust myself a little better, that spirituality was in large part about the personal experience of it, not just figuring out what others say or teach. So, I’m not advocating for you to go outside of the Christian tradition or anything, but maybe give the books and proofs a rest? Just do devotionals, lectio divina, prayer, that sort of thing? Back to basics. I’m assuming at some point in your life you’ve felt like God was there (otherwise I’m surprised you’ve stuck with Christianity this long).

Me and God had a heart to heart the other day - I told him I was done looking for answers. That I couldn’t handle reading about the faith anymore - that I was just gonna focus on being grateful to Him for my life and take it from there. Suprisingly, it helped.

It does seem a little pantheistic (the focus is God in everything) but I like Ignatian Spirituality. You might try the examen. loyolapress.com/how-can-i-pray-try-the-daily-examen.htm

Also, you mentioned about the question of suffering… since I’m still in super doubting everything mode, the way I’ve come to accept that is that it mustn’t have been possible for God to create a world where everything is good and nothing is bad. (Like He can’t make a rock that’s to heavy for him to lift). I know you said Catholicism doesn’t teach ying/yang, but I don’t even care LOL I’m trying to come to grips with the notion of a creator, and that’s how I managed. Also, I had to stop looking at everything in Catholicism so literally, I don’t think Adam and Eve is as literal as we think - I know, I know - controversial topic because technically there’s a lot of dogma around it - but I don’t think it lines up too well with what we know scientifically about polygenesis so whatever. Again, I’m not advising you here on how to accept Catholicism, because I’m personally struggling with that very much. I’m just telling you how I’ve embraced 1.) the idea that a benevolent creator exists 2.) that Jesus and the basic tenents of Christianity are true.