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Vico
Guest
This phrase indicates willfulness “I … put my spiritual concerns and conscious on pause”. Is that correct? If so, then the sin is not resisted. That is the time to pray for help instead.
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Mr_Friscus
Guest
First off, I want to thank you guys for replying to my post of woe.
I very much appreciate the words of encouragement, but it’s not as if I’m trying to figure this out myself as you suggest. The church has laid out what is, has it not?
You either are, or are not in mortal sin… correct?
And leaning on possible excuses to explain away the sin isn’t a healthy practice for human behavior, would you agree?
I certainly need help. However, I refuse (and I think the Catholic church would refuse) to admit that I’m in a place where I need not worry.
I do need to worry. I need to be afraid, and I am afraid. There is a warmth to God regarding love, grace, and mercy, but there’s also what some might call a “coldness” as far as judgement and rejection from heaven, which is possible for anybody. Fearing God is a healthy practice, it can’t all be warm and fuzzy.
I know God is there for me, He hasn’t given up on me. I’ve given up on Him. I’ve harmed my own relationship with Him. I can’t control my life. I have obvious character issues, as far as being a productive Catholic, and spreading the grace that I’ve been given. Will I go to Confession? Yes, I think I will, for the first time in months. However, how long will I be saved from hell before I mortally sin again? This whole latest experience I had has certainly calmed me down a bit, but then again, I’m struggling in many aspects of my life. I’m depressed, I’m an unproductive person, I don’t even have the desire to take good care of myself. All of those point to a lacking… not receiving God’s grace, having a lack of respect for the body God has given me, not having ambition or a wish to change things… feeling hopeless.
Such a thing can be the product of inward brain function, but can also be simple habitual thinking, which I’m known to have.
Is there something wrong with knowing that if you don’t change, you very well might go to hell? Sometimes, I think we’re too easy on ourselves and others… don’t you agree?
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Vico
Guest
Imperfect contrition is good, Catechism:
1453 The contrition called “imperfect” (or “attrition”) is also a gift of God, a prompting of the Holy Spirit. It is born of the consideration of sin’s ugliness or the fear of eternal damnation and the other penalties threatening the sinner (contrition of fear). Such a stirring of conscience can initiate an interior process which, under the prompting of grace, will be brought to completion by sacramental absolution. By itself however, imperfect contrition cannot obtain the forgiveness of grave sins, but it disposes one to obtain forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance. 52
52 Cf. Council of Trent (1551): DS 1678; 1705.
You asked: However, how long will I be saved from hell before I mortally sin again?
One is only saved if in a state of grace at death of the body, however in order to gain the greatest merit in the afterlife, for the glory of God, one’s live should be filled with good acts and avoiding all sin.
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1neophyte
Guest
All right, you win. You’re headed straight to hell. Do you feel completely in tune with Catholicism now?
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JosephHope
Guest
I am always in the same place as you, thinking of going to hell is also a sin by itself because you are not trusting Jesus’s Mercy.
Don’t despair because if someone dies in a state of mortal sin, it does not mean necessarily that he is going to hell, funeral and prayers are held for them, while we are bound by the recommendations of the Church, God is not, you must trust Jesus and do your best.
Are your sins the ones against chastity?
Don’t despair because if someone dies in a state of mortal sin, it does not mean necessarily that he is going to hell, funeral and prayers are held for them, while we are bound by the recommendations of the Church, God is not, you must trust Jesus and do your best.
Are your sins the ones against chastity?
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FonsBonitatis
Guest
This is incorrect.
We can only be with God for eternity if our wills have chosen Him at the moment of death, and existing in a state of mortal sin implies we have not chosen Him, and have no supernatural life in us.
Prayers for the dead are useful only to those souls who have died in a state of grace, and who are undergoing purification before entering the full glory of the Beatific Vision.
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1neophyte
Guest
This is incorrect.
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JosephHope
Guest
We really need to define components of mortal sin, let’s take those against chastity, grave, yes, full knowledge, obviously yes or else we would not be afraid, complete consent, that needs some elaboration, going online and searching for porn constitute a consent, but is it complete, if this guy cannot take the idea out of his head, he prays, he cried, he whips himself with the USB cable and still cannot stop, even opens it at work or in public places, does that seem the act of a person who fully consents what he is doing or a struggling good man.
Anyway, it is included in the catechism about the reasons that diminish the guilt associated with that, but I think whoever is doing this particular sin, under whatever circumstances is a person who needs help not fear.
Anyway, it is included in the catechism about the reasons that diminish the guilt associated with that, but I think whoever is doing this particular sin, under whatever circumstances is a person who needs help not fear.
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1neophyte
Guest
We could spend quite a bit of time defining components of mortal sin, or we could lead the OP to the mercy of Jesus. Which do you think we “really need” to do? Which produces the fruit that God actually desires?
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FonsBonitatis
Guest
I guess that depends on whether or not we’re talking about Catholic theology, no?
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Vico
Guest
Catechism has what you are posting about, lack of complete consent. That can happen with habits. There should be resistance however, see the Baltimore Catechism too.
1862 One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent.
Baltimore Catechism No. 3
Q. 1284. What is forbidden by the sixth Commandment?
A. The sixth Commandment forbids all unchaste freedom with another’s wife or husband; also all immodesty with ourselves or others in looks, dress, words, and actions.
A. Sins of impurity are the most dangerous:
Because they have the most numerous temptations;
Because, if deliberate, they are always mortal, and
Because, more than other sins, they lead to the loss of faith.
Q. 1317. What is forbidden by the ninth Commandment?
A. The ninth Commandment forbids unchaste thoughts, desires of another’s wife or husband, and all other unlawful impure thoughts and desires.
Q. 1318. Are impure thoughts and desires always sins?
A. Impure thoughts and desires are always sins, unless they displease us and we try to banish them.
Q. 1324. In what does the sixth commandment differ from the ninth, and the seventh differ from the tenth?
A. The sixth commandment differs from the ninth in this, that the sixth refers chiefly to external acts of impurity, while the ninth refers more to sins of thought against purity. The seventh commandment refers chiefly to external acts of dishonesty, while the tenth refers more to thoughts against honesty.
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1neophyte
Guest
We’re actually talking about a person who is in need of help. Did you happen to read the original post in this thread?I guess that depends on whether or not we’re talking about Catholic theology, no?
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JosephHope
Guest
I believe if the OP thinks that he is not in a state of mortal sin, since he is struggling with his sins, he would be better.
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FonsBonitatis
Guest
My response was to the following assertion:
The above is a theological statement. It is incorrect.
Dying in a state of mortal sin DOES necessarily mean that such a soul is going to hell, and this is what I was addressing. Ditto for the idea that someone who has died in a state of mortal sin can somehow be helped to salvation by prayer. That is by no means Catholic teaching.
If you disagree with this, then I’m not sure what to tell you, but your beef is not with me, it’s with the Church. Everything I stated is fundamental to a proper understanding of Catholicism.
The contents of the OP are absolutely irrelevant to my post and to the comment I was responding to, which was and is erroneous.
Likewise, if you feel obliged to judge that a particular poster is not in a state of mortal sin, then fine: but that by no means is relevant to my comments either.
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1neophyte
Guest
You actually have it backwards.The contents of the OP are absolutely irrelevant to my post and to the comment I was responding to, which was and is erroneous.
Your post is absolutely irrelevant to this thread, as well as erroneous. 
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FonsBonitatis
Guest
My post is a bit off-topic, because it was picking on some poorly written language, but you’ve now called Catholic dogma erroneous twice.You actually have it backwards.
Can you explain to me, specifically, how what I stated about dying in a state of mortal sin is an error?
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1neophyte
Guest
I have been to several funerals of people who have committed suicide (a mortal sin), and in each one the presiding priest made it clear that we can have a reasonable hope that the deceased person will attain eternal life. I will trust a priest’s ability to expound on Catholic dogma over yours.
Also, I’m better at passive aggressive smileys than you are.
:thumbsup:
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FonsBonitatis
Guest
Of course we do!
One of the most basic aspects of Catholic moral theology is that there is a difference between the sinfulness of an objective act and the subjective guilt such an act carries.
While it’s true that suicide is an objective mortal sin, we cannot presume to judge whether or not a particular victim of that act was actually subjectively guilty. Therefore, of course we should hope for their salvation!
However, just to make this clear, my comments were with regard to what the poster said:
One cannot die in a state of mortal sin without:
(1) Committing an objectively grave act;
AND
(2) Actually being subjectively guilty for having committed that act.
Such a person, alas, is lost.
Now, I have asked you for a clarification, you have given it, and I have demonstrated to you that your understanding was flawed. I’ll let the readers decide whether my arguments are consist with solid theology.
While I appreciate the smileys, and since you’re insisting on being rude, I’m going to bow out of the conversation and wish you a happy Sunday.
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1neophyte
Guest
I’m so glad this was all cleared up. We would have been completely lost without your explanation.Of course we do!
One of the most basic aspect of Catholic moral theology is that there is a difference between the sinfulness of an objective act and the subjective guilt such an act carries.
While it’s true that suicide is an objective mortal sin, we cannot presume to judge whether or not a particular victim of that act was actually subjectively guilty. Therefore, of course we should hope for their salvation!
However, just to make this clear, my comments were with regard to what the poster said:
One cannot die in a state of mortal sin without:
(1) Committing an objectively grave act;
AND
(2) Actually being subjectively guilty for having committed that act.
Such a person, alas, is lost.
Now, I have asked you for a clarification, you have given it, and I have demonstrated to you that your understanding was flawed. I appreciate the smileys, but since you’re insisting on being rude, I’m going to bow out of the conversation and wish you a happy Sunday.
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carefullytread
Guest
If I may weigh in, I think FonsBonitatis is correct, but that the priests you’ve heard are also correct that there is hope for a suicide to be in heaven. The following is my understanding of the theology and I welcome correction by anyone who knows better.I have been to several funerals of people who have committed suicide (a mortal sin), and in each one the presiding priest made it clear that we can have a reasonable hope that the deceased person will attain eternal life. I will trust a priest’s ability to expound on Catholic dogma over yours.
Also, I’m better at passive aggressive smileys than you are.
The confusion stems from two points. One, suicide (or any sin), is not necessarily mortal. There are sins which concern grave matter objectively, but grave matter is not enough for mortal sin. In addition to grave matter, there are internal psychological criteria, namely knowledge and consent.
Factors such as psychological distress or habit can cause an objectively grave sin to not be mortal. Indeed, you can imagine that many suicides are in exactly such a state of psychological distress that their full consent cannot be imputed.
Second, confession is not the only way out of a state of mortal sin. There is also perfect contrition. This also concerns internal psychological states, and so you as an external observer can never know whether they have occurred.
The conclusion being that no one on earth can ever objectively say whether someone is in a state of mortal sin or not. You can observe that a sin objectively concerns grave matter, but that’s all you can do.
So while the Church teaches that dying in a state of mortal sin sends you to hell, you can never know who dies in a state of mortal sin and so we can hope that a suicide or anyone else had their chance to reach perfect contrition.
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