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distracted
Guest
you have a point about people not knowing their teachings are off… but not knowing is not… well, an excuse… Ignorance of law is no excuse, as they say. that applies no mattter waht law you are referring to… human or God’s
If a person doesn’t know that its against the law to, say, slap someone and does it, s/he is still going to be possibly charged with assault…
and those who don’t know that some sin is a sin are still going to suffer its consequences if they commit that sin…
so again, if one is not Catholic, one is missing out…
and when it comes to eternal life… and considering how it is hard to get into heaven…
I say we need all the Jesus we can get… (which includes having HIS Church, not the man-made ones). Heck we Catholics can hardly even deal with what His real Church teaches… we can hardly even do al of even a large % of what Jesus wants/requires… think how much more messed up those who are not in his Church are…whether they realize it or not…
M
MDK
Guest
Actually, no, you can’t… not successfully at least. Those who argue against the Real Presence argue also against the Incarnation.I can use this same method you are using to refute me to refute the real presence, you know.
And no, I do not reject God. Sorry.
If you are really a Catholic as you now claim you are, why don’t you believe what God’s Church teaches?
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distracted
Guest
so…
how DO you measure heresy in the Church?
or more importantly, what do you do about it??
esp if it is in the hierarchy…
how DO you measure heresy in the Church?
or more importantly, what do you do about it??
esp if it is in the hierarchy…
M
MDK
Guest
Let’s not get distracted here… Although, this is a worthy topic, for another thread. Answer in a heirarchly like the Catholic Church is that you need to get them to go with the official teachings, and if they refuse then the Church must protect the faithful…
The OP is about how the ecclesial community is formed, based on what official teachings does this body subscribe to? The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ, on the Rock of Peter and the gates of Hell will never prevail against Jesus’ One Church. All others were founded on men’s ideas for which the gates of Hell had prevailed in the very founding of that ecclesial community.
M
MDK
Guest
By rejecting those Christ sent into the world to continue His mission (successors to the Apostles (Bishops) in union with Head Apostle (Bishop)), you do reject Christ, and the One who sent Christ. If you don’t believe these words, then you don’t believe Christ.I can use this same method you are using to refute me to refute the real presence, you know.
And no, I do not reject God. Sorry.
M
MDK
Guest
Yes, of course. Theirs is relatively smaller in degree, though as they do have a valid priesthood and valid seven Sacraments. They rejected the idea of the Pope having authority, and the Head Bishop is what Christ established so they are wrong there. By comparison, the errors in the Protestant ecclesial communities are many and very large. Does it get any bigger than rejecting Christ’s Sacramental Presence in the Eucharist, as He taught it (transubstantiaion)… “This is My Body” as He didn’t say it was with His Body, or like His Body, or near His Body…
The Orthodox reject Transubstantiation.
helsinki.fi/~risaarin/lutortjointtext.html#euch
And Lutherans affirm the real presence.
The Apology to the Augsburg Confession
What about the PNCC, and some Northern European Lutherans who have maintained Apostolic Succession?
Jon
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MDK
Guest
I was giving you the basic example, so you would hopefully understand… didn’t work though because you’re missing the main idea and warnings regarding authenticity and unity. The objective of understanding how far you are away, is simply to come to the fullness of truth no matter how far. Simply to create your own ecclesial community apart from the Catholic Church is wrong, and is not of God. This would include the Orthodox, Lutheran, Baptists, Methodists, all non-denoms, etc.
The Orthodox do not reject Christ’s Sacramental Presence in the Eucharist, and they have a valid Eucharist. Both are important.
With the Orthodox churches, this communion is so profound that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist. (CCC)
So, to your statement, no you really don’t make a valid point as you appear to think you do. The Orthodox have Transubstantiation occurring whereas Luther rejected the priesthood and so did away with it, while also molesting the understanding of this Sacrament. Calvin and Zwingli were worse. The Orthodox have a slightly different understanding of it, but do have valid Eucharist (via transubstantiation with a valid priesthood). Poor teaching or understanding alone won’t make it invalid. Obviously, when you don’t have a valid Eucharist, then what have you got left of God’s Church? The teaching itself is also a propblem, the further you get away from the teaching of Transubstantiation. If you want a treatise on this, that would be another thread. However, we can receive Communion at Greek Orthodox for instance if Catholic is not available. The Catholic teaching is correct and gets it right, due to protection from the Holy Spirit. The Orthodox have used a slightly different Greek twist to this. The difference between Orthodox and Reformation “ecclesial communities” is that the Orthodox have a valid Eucharist. The Orthodox have a valid Eucharist, and Lutherans do not. They have not always understand it properly with the protection Holy Spirit as the Catholic Church does. It’s a big deal to teach properly, and that’s why God established His One Church, which has never once taught error in faith and morals.
The understanding is that the Catholic Church is God’s standard for teaching here on earth. Even those with a valid priesthood may not teach completely correctly, but the Eucharist nevertheless is valid. Those without a valid priesthood and no proper understanding of Transubstantiation are futher adrift.
Not really true here either… because you’re mixing words and missing authority. Saying that you believe in the Real Presence is not mean that you have a valid Priesthood, nor is it trasnsubstantiation if Christ is not present Sacramentally with His Sacramental Priesthood. You can’t just say you have something without the authentic authority. Besides, these teach heresy… remember?
Luther got rid of the priesthood altogether, and five of seven sacraments. This is a sad legacy of the Protestant “reformation.” How much false teacing and resjection of Sacraments is okay with God? Answer is obviously NONE!
It still stands as I posted originally, the amount of your improper teaching is the difference between yours and the Catholic Church. You can measure that for yourself if you understand these things properly. Although, you tend not to be clear on these things yet.
Those ecclesial communites born of the “Reformation” (actually deformation for them) that do not have a valid priesthood, are not “Churches” in the proper sense, because they lack Apostolic Succession. Once those lose it, you can’t just all of a sudden say you have it back.
The PNCC broke off about 100 years ago, and is not created of the “Reformation”. It does have seven valid Sacraments. However, the teachings are not always correct. Same applies to them… the doctrinal difference in official teachings that conflict with Catholicism are the amount of error present in that Church.
You are really missing the point of all this as well… all of these you mentioned are not the One True Faith, and all of them teach error. How much error is okay with God? Answer is obviously NONE!
Instead of wasting all this effort, why not seek the truth without limits and go to the only Church established and protected by Christ.
How many Churches did God build? One.
If you’re not in it, why not?
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TristanCross
Guest
I don’t? So who’s this guy I pray to that I read about in the Bible? His name is Jesus Christ. He was born of a virgin, named Mary…and…well, basically I believe what the Apostle’s Creed says…Either way, you’re far too arrogant for me to continue talking to. Please, repent. I’d love to talk, but I will refuse until you grow up.
Funny thing, I was really considering Catholicism, and now I’m not. You’re such a good example…
M
MDK
Guest
More projection from those who cannot cope with truth. The mature can see what I am really doing. Those not mature will not be able to understand and will mischaracertize as you have done, only able to see incorrectly what you are familiar with. In mischaracterizing, you bear false witness. Is that mature Christianity? No, and never will be.I don’t? So who’s this guy I pray to that I read about in the Bible? His name is Jesus Christ. He was born of a virgin, named Mary…and…well, basically I believe what the Apostle’s Creed says…Either way, you’re far too arrogant for me to continue talking to. Please, repent. I’d love to talk, but I will refuse until you grow up.
Funny thing, I was really considering Catholicism, and now I’m not. You’re such a good example…
I prefer God’s word over man’s word, and so you and I differ. Some don’t like it when others go with the truth, as it’s not what you and others really desire. You also misrepresented yourself, but I knew that you were not who you claimed to be. Catholicism is Christianity. Anything else is just watered down and errant man made teachings. You have indicated that you prefer man’s word over God’s word. I prefer God’s word.
Actually, in truth you do reject those who Christ sent, by rejecting the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. If you believe in Christ and obey Him, you will do as he commanded. Christ said that He who hears those He sent also hears Him. He who rejects those Christ sent also rejects not only Christ, but He who sent Christ (the Father). Please look in the Scriptures for these teachings. They’re from God.
It’s interesting that when someone tells the truth, as I have, you don’t like it and term the truth “arrogant.” You must, then, say the same about Christ, because someone is doing what He asked, and teaching what He prescribed… the truth about the Truth.
So, let’s not pretend that you were really going to be Catholic. You’re not prepared for it, nor are you willing to accept truth. Only those who desire truth will be authentically Catholic. Since you prefer “teachers” who are more to your liking (as Jesus warned us people would) then you could never be Catholic. You had already claimed to be “Catholic” but your words were completely un-Catholic and anti-Catholic. Your mind was never in Catholicism, and you were untruthful to us as to who you were. To be a good Catholic, you must embrace the truth. When you’re ready to do that, please come to God’s Church. If you don’t want the truth, then sadly you’ll never find Christ.
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DOShea
Guest
It disturbs me, as someone who believes the same truth, that you would blow right past the commandment to love and read into the mission to spread God’s word a right to use a hammer against those who, for whatever their reasons, see a different truth. The ends do not justify the means; in fact it was the very idea that ends could justify the means that led Luther in his refusal to recant. I’m not sure what you think you are accomplishing other than to present the model of pompous Catholicism that is easy to revile and use as an excuse to explore it no further.
You might recall the prodigal son did not come home because his brother went out after him and taunted him with “the truth” or diminished him publicly for refusing to listen to it. It took an act of his own will and the examination of his own conscience to turn him around and make him seek his father’s house. Maybe there is a lesson to be learned there.
W
workingman
Guest
You may consider it a excuse but it just may be the truth. One should be enlightened if one is ignorant of it.
I
Yes that may be but if one is not part of that community is one held to those laws. If you are in the US and break a Canadian law while in the US are you held to the Canadian law? NO.
Yes but it is not for us to judge that sin. That is between them and God.
Yes I agree that is why I came home.
What about eternal life…is it rely that hard to get to heaven
We all need all the Jesus we can get agreed…Yes a united Church. We can not do the simplest thing Jesus commands us to do. Those out side of the Church may be heterodox but this does not nec mean they are any more messed up than us who are. We can’t follow Christ teachings any better than them. Got to love our sinful human nature. Not I hate my sinful human nature and drown it every day with scripture and repentance.I say we need all the Jesus we can get… (which includes having HIS Church, not the man-made ones). Heck we Catholics can hardly even deal with what His real Church teaches… we can hardly even do al of even a large % of what Jesus wants/requires… think how much more messed up those who are not in his Church are…whether they realize it or not…
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workingman
Guest
MDK, after being out and about today I got to have a chance to read and catch up. I know the intentions of your thread are good. But I think this case could of used a little more tact in the aproach. In what I have read it sounds like you still subscribe to that their is no salvation outside of the CC. I am not saying that is what you believe but that is what is sounds like. I am going to defend the Lutherans a little here as I am a convert out of the LCMS. Have you ever read the Lutheran confessions? Do you know what they teach and say? Many of the teachings are the same as ours. I love the CC but we could of learned a thing or two in how our CC is laid out. Luther did a superb job of constructing the small and large catechism. Fare easier to understand than that of the CCC. If you have never read what the Lutheran Church teach I encourage you to do so. Below is a link to it please check out what they say and teach.
lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/LCMS/TrigBOC.pdf
lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/LCMS/TrigBOC.pdf
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TristanCross
Guest
Thank God for some nice, loving Catholics. It’s nice to see you guys still exist. Thank you for helping 
MDK, I admire your zeal. But, I would really appreciate if you toned down the strict Catholic behavior.
MDK, I admire your zeal. But, I would really appreciate if you toned down the strict Catholic behavior.
T
ThuriferAcolyte
Guest
.
Funny thing, I was really considering Catholicism, and now I’m not. You’re such a good example…
M
MDK
Guest
Thanks for your concern, which I believe you may genuinely feel. I know the story well of the prodigal son, except it doesn’t apply here. The problem here is your own limitation of what you know and are used to, so you claim I am doing something I am not. Quite honestly, I don’t think you understand anything I’m doing here. Evidence by what you wrote. If you understood at all, you would realize that there is a help for people by asking them to leave a false faith system that will not really authentically lead them to God. It is quite ignorant to claim there is a hammer, and this breaks God’s Commandment of bearing false witness. So, wher is this alleged hammer? Are these people not able to use their free will? How has that been compromised in any way? I don’t think you really understand well, and that is disturbing to me that you call yourself a fellow Catholic.
I think people like you aren’t used to seeing the actual truth, and so don’t know how to respond.
It is a false reading to say there is a taunting, as there is not.
No person has been diminished in any way by me. Everything I’ve said has been true, and if they took heed, they could have a better walk with God.
I must ask you to honor God’s eighth Commandment, and not just falsely accuse because you lack the understanding of what is really going on. Some within our Church prefer the broad way, and not the narrow way as Christ asked. You are acting as one of those type of people. No authentic Catholic (one who believes fully in Catholicism) would have written as you have.
M
MDK
Guest
A nice Catholic is one who tells you the truth as I have. A “Catholic” that Bible-only people like is one who denies truth of Catholicism and says every religion is fine… Our society is messed up and lives are ruined due to moral relativism, i.e. people deciding for themselves what morality is. This is born of people not listening to Christ, but deciding that they know better, as you have demonstrated. Christ asked you to follow Him, and not just decide for yourself how much of what He taught is true. It’s a Kingdom, not a democracy. Catholicism is the only hope for each of us, our famiilies, our society, our country and the World. It’s not something we can just take lightly or ignore, as I see too commonly in society and sadly on this board as well.Thank God for some nice, loving Catholics. It’s nice to see you guys still exist. Thank you for helping
MDK, I admire your zeal. But, I would really appreciate if you toned down the strict Catholic behavior.
M
MDK
Guest
If one genuinely examines this with insight and honesty, the problem is not lack of tact at all. The problem is that people are not used to the truth, and don’t feel comfortable with it. Society has taught many of you that we must couch the truth with some amount of falsehood or politically correct sentiment. This is absolutely unfair to Christ, who is the Truth. There is nothing done here that is incorrect or out of place, just simply those who are not comfortable with the plain truth.
I have many things to learn, but about Lutherans is really not one of the main things. I know more than you have shown that you are aware of. I know what they claim to teach, and I know what they actually do teach and their lack of ministerial priesthood. Are you aware that Pope Benedict signed off on a statement saying those ecclesial communities born of the reformation are not “churches” in the proper sense due to no valid Sacramental Priesthood? How is that a good thing for anyone in the Lutheran community? It is not. If you really did know authentic Christianty, you would know that the Eucharist is the source and summit of Christian life. It is not some nice thing or optional symbol. Christ established His Church for a good reason. There is NO VALID REASON to have an ecclesial community outside of God’s One and only Catholic Church! None!
Those who try to make excuses for this end up on the wrong side, and look quite silly. There is no valid defense for any ecclesial community outside God’s Catholic Church. God established this, not you or me. If you love God follow Him as He set things up. It’s pretty simple, really. I am not naive to think that everyone will do this. What I’m telling people, though, is that there is not one single valid excuse for either not being in God’s Church. There is mercy given by God for those invincibly ignorant. But, there is no grace in being ignorant. We must seek the gift of grace by God in His one Church.
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