How to pray for Russia?

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You are citing incidents that have occurred long after the fact of the Eastern Churches initial submission to Rome. Granted the relationship between the Eastern Churches and the See of Peter has always been extremely tumultuous, but all the Patriarchates (Constantinople, Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Antioch) of the first few centuries had always acknowledged the Pope as Supreme Pontiff and visible head of the Church.
Yes, but you really, really should do some more research. The “East-West schism” of 1054 resulted in Rome no longer being in communion with the rest of the original members of the pentarchy (and vice versa). The baptism of St. Vladimir in 987 inaugurated the Christian era in the East Slavic nations, which were originally under the see of Constaninople. Although you’ll find references to East Slavic churches (and the See of Russia) being on friendlier terms with Rome than Byzantium, the truth is, during the period in between the Union of Brest, and 1054, they were out of communion of Rome, by virtue of their affiliation with Constantinople.

So, strictly speaking, no, they were not always in “communion with Rome”. The Eastern Slavs briefly were (prior to 1054) … and then they weren’t.
 
Since you admit they are only in schism, then, once again, the proper approach to unity is understanding, not conversion.

Blessings
It is schism in addition to a host of theological heresies such as a rejection of the Immaculate Conception and the Primacy of Peter.

Re-submission to the See of Peter and conversion are necessary for their salvation.
Catherine Grant:
Note from Moderator:
Please read the below reminder from the Important Forum Information sticky thread about the appropriate and inappropriate usages of the word schism and its derivatives before continuing to post in the Eastern Catholicism forum.
Ms.Grant, I am expressing the infallible teaching of the Holy Catholic Church when I say that the Orthodox Church has willfully placed itself in schism from the Catholic Church. If you require dogmatic citations I would be happy to provide. This is not an insult nor is it derogatory, but it is merely a defined fact.

Heresy and schism are theological terms that have their place in theological discourse.

Th Church has defined that there is no salvation outside of the Holy Catholic Church, so how can it be called charitable to allow our brothers to remain separated from the sole ark of salvation out of the cowardly ideal of “non-confrontation”?

If your guidelines reflect this cruel notion, then I suggest an amendment is in order.

This is CATHOLIC Answers … is it not? Am I to be reprimanded for expressing the teachings of the Catholic Church on a Catholic forum?

In Corde Regis,
Joshua
 
Dear brother Iacobus,
It is schism in addition to a host of theological heresies such as a rejection of the Immaculate Conception and the Primacy of Peter.
You should really study the issue more. EO generally don’t reject the IC as a heresy. And those that do can easily be shown to have a misunderstanding of the teaching. So for you to say they are heretical for rejecting the IC, when even THEY don’t view it as heresy, is illogical and uncharitable.
Re-submission to the See of Peter and conversion are necessary for their salvation.
According to you, not the Catholic Church.
Heresy and schism are theological terms that have their place in theological discourse.
Sister Catherine said as much. You should read her exhortation again.
The Church has defined that there is no salvation outside of the Holy Catholic Church, so how can it be called charitable to allow our brothers to remain separated from the sole ark of salvation out of the cowardly ideal of “non-confrontation”?
I would trust the infallible Church to define what she means by EENS, not my own personal interpretation.
This is CATHOLIC Answers … is it not? Am I to be reprimanded for expressing the teachings of the Catholic Church on a Catholic forum?
This is indeed a Catholic website, which faithfully promotes the teachings of the Catholic Church, but your understanding of Church teaching contradicts what the Magisterium has taught us.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
You should really study the issue more. EO generally don’t reject the IC as a heresy. And those that do can easily be shown to have a misunderstanding of the teaching. So for you to say they are heretical for rejecting the IC, when even THEY don’t view it as heresy, is illogical and uncharitable.
The Eastern Orthodox Church does not consider the Immaculate Conception to be dogma. They may not consider those who do believe in it to be heretics, but it has been intentionally left out of Eastern Orthodox teaching … whereas the Catholic Church has defined the IC to be binding upon all Christians.

Regardless, the one point that nobody can play mental gymnastics with is their denial of the Primacy of Peter.

and as the Holy Catholic Church has defined:
Pope Boniface I, Epistle 14.1: “It is clear that this Roman Church is to all churches throughout the world as the head is to the members, and that whoever separates himself from it becomes an exile from the Christian religion, since he ceases to belong to its fellowship.”
As a Catholic you must submit to this and charity commands you to aid our brethren in the East to reenter the one and only ark of salvation.
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mardukm:
I would trust the infallible Church to define what she means by EENS, not my own personal interpretation.
Precisely. This is the reason why that I have done nothing but quote dogmatic statements that are emphatically clear. Have you not read my citations on Post #51? If so … how can you still claim I am contradicting the faith?

In Corde Regis,***
Joshua
 
The truth is the truth, my friend. I have been neither rude nor condescending. In fact the bulk of what I have posted on this thread have been quotes from our Holy Fathers of times past. Do you find what they have to say “offensive”?

… and what is it that “impresses” you, sir? A Priest is not there to “impress” the faithful, but rather to guide his flock to eternal salvation. Many of the teachings of the Church can be difficult to submit to, and many times the most charitable way to convey the truth is to ***not mince words. ***

I will pray for your dear wife, my friend.

In Corde Regis,
Joshua
 
Hence the need of prayers for her, sir. I have showed you time and time again where the Church has defined that unless one is in communion with Holy Mother Church then here is no salvation.

Charity commands me to pray for this intention, sir. It breaks my heart to see anyone treading a path that is independent from the one, true faith. Sir, how can you not understand? Your wife will not find salvation through the Orthodox Church. You must assent to this defined dogma of the Church for souls are at stake! Please do not continue to be indifferent to this. I’m sure you tell yourself that you have no desire to have her convert out of fear of angering her family, fear of angering her if you breach the subject, you may even find the differences charming … or even out of love.

… But it is *not *love, sir, to allow your wife to continually deprive herself of the one, true ark of salvation. Please do not see my words as insulting, but rather as the words of a faithful Catholic who simply wishes for all souls to enter into the eternal Kingdom
of Heaven.

May God bless you and your wife always and I will keep both of you in my prayers.

In Corde Regis,
Joshua
 
Mr. Carnelian,

Nothing you have cited accounts to dogmatic pronouncements from Holy Mother Church. The personal opinions or advice from individual Priests or warm-and-fuzzy articles from the spineless USCCB … are not doctrine and are not infallible.

The quotes that I cited from Post #51, however, are.

In Corde Regis,
Joshua
 
Dear brother Joshua,

Do you accept the mitigation of invincible ignorance?

Blessings
I agree with Sancte Jacobus.
The Church is in a period of great trouble. Sr Lucy even spoke of “diabolical disorientation”.
St Augustine once said something like: “When you are troubled in your faith, you must revert to the Church’s Tradition because here lies the Truth”.
O course, the quotes from the post #51 are the true doctrine. In no way any writing, any recent statement of a high ranked cleric of the Church’s hierarchy can contradict them.
 
Hence the need of prayers for her, sir. I have showed you time and time again where the Church has defined that unless one is in communion with Holy Mother Church then here is no salvation.

Charity commands me to pray for this intention, sir. It breaks my heart to see anyone treading a path that is independent from the one, true faith. Sir, how can you not understand? Your wife will not find salvation through the Orthodox Church. You must assent to this defined dogma of the Church for souls are at stake! Please do not continue to be indifferent to this. I’m sure you tell yourself that you have no desire to have her convert out of fear of angering her family, fear of angering her if you breach the subject, you may even find the differences charming … or even out of love.

… But it is *not *love, sir, to allow your wife to continually deprive herself of the one, true ark of salvation. Please do not see my words as insulting, but rather as the words of a faithful Catholic who simply wishes for all souls to enter into the eternal Kingdom
of Heaven.

May God bless you and your wife always and I will keep both of you in my prayers.

In Corde Regis,
Joshua
I’ll pray that God will soften your hard heart and reveal to you the Truth of the faith only found in His Holy, Orthodox, Catholic Church. We can have a “prayer duel”. If no one converts do we just assume that God doesn’t care? Or maybe one or the other is just too stubborn? If so, which person is it? Or maybe if you were sincere you would just pray for his wife and not anounce it to everyone on this board like a pharisee. Your announcement surely wasn’t meant to bring comfort to him or anyone else here, so I can only assume you meant to appear superior by it.

“And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward." - Matthew 6:5
 
Dear brother Joshua,

Do you accept the mitigation of invincible ignorance?

Blessings
Surely, Mark. However, the parameters for someone to be considered “invincibly ignorant” are pretty slim once somebody has reached the age of reason. We cannot assume that anyone or any culture are invincibly ignorant as this would certainly place souls in jeopardy.

In Corde Regis,
Joshua
 
Or maybe if you were sincere you would just pray for his wife and not anounce it to everyone on this board like a pharisee. Your announcement surely wasn’t meant to bring comfort to him or anyone else here, so I can only assume you meant to appear superior by it.
I am not here to comfort nor am I here to pander toward false notions of agreeability. Religion is not a therapeutic remedy for emotional boo-boos. It is about the truth and many times the truth hurts. You can mock me for publicly praying for an intention as some sort of hollow, self-aggrandizement, but it makes no difference to me. I was and am sincere and I pray that the cob-webs of disorientation are shaken from the heads of those who defy the teachings of Holy Mother Church

In Corde Regis,***
Joshua
 
Surely, Mark. However, the parameters for someone to be considered “invincibly ignorant” are pretty slim once somebody has reached the age of reason. We cannot assume that anyone or any culture are invincibly ignorant as this would certainly place souls in jeopardy.
So:
  1. Are schismatic SSPX members going to hell?
  2. Are those who have never had a chance to hear of the Catholic Faith going to hell?
Blessings
 
I am not here to comfort nor am I here to pander toward false notions of agreeability. Religion is not a therapeutic remedy for emotional boo-boos. It is about the truth and many times the truth hurts. You can mock me for publicly praying for an intention as some sort of hollow, self-aggrandizement, but it makes no difference to me. I was and am sincere and I pray that the cob-webs of disorientation are shaken from the heads of those who defy the teachings of Holy Mother Church

In Corde Regis,***
Joshua
You certainly aren’t here to comfort, that’s for sure. You’re just full of justice aren’t you? Too bad God didn’t make you a hierarch instead of just some guy with a big mouth and a computer. :rolleyes:
 
So:
  1. Are schismatic SSPX members going to hell?
  2. Are those who have never had a chance to hear of the Catholic Faith going to hell?
Blessings
Please, please do not turn this into an SSPX debate. The Church has ***never ***declared them to be in formal schism and the piece of legislation that came out against the SSPX that I’m sure your referencing (JPII - Ecclesia Dei) has been formally overturned by our current Holy Father.

… and your second point is a clear cut example of invincible ignorance.

In Corde Regis,
Joshua
 
Please, please do not turn this into an SSPX debate. The Church has ***never ***declared them to be in formal schism and the piece of legislation that came out against the SSPX that I’m sure your referencing (JPII - Ecclesia Dei) has been formally overturned by our current Holy Father.
Just as I thought.:rolleyes:

You claim to have respect for the Eastern/Oriental Traditions in the Catholic Church, yet you don’t practice what you preach.

The fact is, whatever affinity you feel for schismatic SSPX members, Eastern and Oriental Catholics feel the same affinity for Eastern and Oriental Orthodox members. You don’t understand our distinct theologies so you probably can’t imagine just how close we (Eastern/Oriental Catholics) actually are to them (Eastern/Oriental Orthodox). If you can’t understand that, then you’re not being sincere.

Blessings
 
Just as I thought.:rolleyes:

You claim to have respect for the Eastern/Oriental Traditions in the Catholic Church, yet you don’t practice what you preach.

Blessings
I honestly haven’t the darndest clue as to what you’re talking about … but I’m sure it’s
ridiculous.

The SSPX have never been declared to be in formal schism. The Orthodox Church has. What’s so frickin’ hard to understand? … :rolleyes:

In Corde Regis,
Joshua
 
I honestly haven’t the darndest clue as to what you’re talking about … but I’m sure it’s
ridiculous.

The SSPX have never been declared to be in formal schism. The Orthodox Church has. What’s so frickin’ hard to understand? … :rolleyes:

In Corde Regis,
Joshua
Try a little humility, buddy. Last time I checked it was still a virtue. :rolleyes:
 
From Diabolic Wars by His Holiness Pope Shenouda III - (Chapter two)
  1. Destroying one virtue to gain another:
The devil gets annoyed with your stable virtues, those that have
become part of your nature. He tries to destroy them by every
means and the easiest way to do this is to offer you another new
virtue. If you practice the new virtue without discrimination -
for lack of experience - you will lose the first stable virtue.
Here is an example of this:

a) A person leading a life of meekness, quiet, calmness,
peace of heart and decent manners…
The devil wants to make this person lose all his gentleness,
good words and humility of heart. What can he do? Of course
he can not abuse the person’s meekness nor say to him, “Leave
your meek nature which is loved by all…” But he achieves this
by displacement. He offers another virtue without saying that it
is a substitute… How?

First, he explains to the person the importance of the verse,
“the zeal for your house has eaten me up.”
He tells him that it was said by David who was known for his
meekness (Ps. 132:1), and that the disciples remembered these
words when the Lord Jesus Christ, the meek, " had made a
whip of cords, He drove them all out of the temple, with the
sheep and the oxen, and poured out the changers’ money and
overturned the tables." (John 2:15-17) , and said to them, “And
He said to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be called a
house of prayer,’ but you have made it a ‘den of thieves.’””
(Matt 21:13)

He even calls the person to fight the faults of others and
provides him with all the necessary verses.
He tells him that the Lord Jesus Christ severely rebuked the
scribes and Pharisees through a whole chapter of the Bible,
“Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees hypocrites…” (Matt. 23).
He confronted them with all their faults calling them more than
once, “blind guides” and saying to them, " you are like
whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly."
and, “See! Your house is left to you desolate;” (Matt 23:27,38).
John the Baptist also reproved the leaders of the Jews in his
days saying, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the
wrath to come?” (Matt 3:7)

The devil says to this person then, "Hearken to the words of St.
Paul the apostle. What he says is an order.
He commands you, ‘Convince, rebuke, exhort’ (2 Tim. 4:2).

But he does not complete the verse, “with all longsuffering and
doctrine.” He does not tell him that these words are said to St.
Timothy (bishop of Ephesus) and not to everyone. He does not
explain to him how St. Paul himself used to reprove, or to say
to the priests of Ephesus, " I did not cease to warn everyone
night and day with tears." (Acts 20:31). Thus, the devil presses
so that such a person may reprove and rebuke others…
As if he were Christ or the Baptist, St. Paul or Timothy the
bishop.

The poor victim is then convinced, goes on reproving everyone
not knowing the spiritual way to do so nor who should reprove
whom, nor what his authority to do so is! While reproving
others, he falls in condemning them, in anger, cruelty and
defaming people. The image of people becomes black in his
eyes and perhaps many would leave the church because of his
conduct… He becomes an exploding bomb casting its shrapnel
everywhere… !

In that way, he loses his meekness, gentleness and decency;
he hates people and becomes hated by them.
Then, he soon gets weary of that conduct which does not
conform with his nature and tries to return to his first condition
but he finds his heart a different heart and his thoughts not the
same. He finds that he has lost his simplicity, purity of heart
and mind, as well as his good relations with others, and no
longer is the good example who benefits others.

The devil has lured him with a virtue which he
misunderstands and made him lose his previous virtue.
Neither did he keep the first nor gain the second but he fell into
confusion!
He allows him to practise the second virtue because it is not
firmly rooted in him and shall not annoy the devil for he can
shake him easily from it.
Hence, our fathers used to advise their children saying, "Refuse
any virtue which the devils offer with the intention of destroying
another virtue which you have, and say to them,
'This virtue is good, but for the sake of God I do not want
it. ’

Indeed, any work of God does not destroy another work of
God, and everyone has his own personality which differs from
that of others. What fits one may not fit another, neither has
everyone the authority to arrange and organise, to reprove and
rebuke, nor to judge and condemn. Whoever is given this
authority by God is certainly also given the way to use it
properly without doing wrong.

\Not everyone can say, “Woe is unto me if I preach not the
Gospel.” These words are said by St. Paul who explained the
reason for this, “Necessity is laid upon me” and, “I have been
entrusted with a stewardship.” (1 Cor 9:16,17). But you, what
is the necessity laid upon you? Who committed unto you a
dispensation as St. Paul had committed to him by Christ Himself
or a mission as the Baptist received through the announcement
of the angel to his father (Luke 1:15-17), or a responsibility as St.
Timothy undertook through the laying on of hands (2 Tim. 1:6).
 
Dear brother Trophybearer,

That was awesome! Thank you, very appropos.

BTW, are you Coptic Orthodox?

Blessings,
Marduk
 
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