How to pray for Russia?

[trophybearer]

Dear brother Trophybearer,

That was awesome! Thank you, very appropos.

BTW, are you Coptic Orthodox?

Blessings,
Marduk

Brother Mardukm,

Glory to God! I’m Antiochian actually. I borrowed a booklet from my priest a while back (He’s Egyptian and grew up in the Coptic Church) by H.H. Pope Shenouda III and was impressed with his writing, so decided to check out more. I love the practical and matter-of-fact way His Holiness gives real solutions to spiritual problems and exposes the tricks and traps of the devil in detail. I generally feel armed with real spitirual weaponry after reading his work. God knows I certainly need it!

God Bless!

 

[Sancte_Iacobus]

Just as I thought.

You claim to have respect for the Eastern/Oriental Traditions in the Catholic Church, yet you don’t practice what you preach.

The fact is, whatever affinity you feel for schismatic SSPX members, Eastern and Oriental Catholics feel the same affinity for Eastern and Oriental Orthodox members. You don’t understand our distinct theologies so you probably can’t imagine just how close we (Eastern/Oriental Catholics) actually are to them (Eastern/Oriental Orthodox). If you can’t understand that, then you’re not being sincere.

Blessings

Mark, the Church has declared the Orthodox Church (in so far as it continues to refuse to accept Papal authority) to be in Formal Schism. This is a fact.

Whereas the SSPX (who I do not always find myself in agreement with) has never been declared to be in Formal Schism and the excommunications imposed upon Archbishop Lefebvre and the four Bishops have been entirely rescinded by our current Holy Father.

What link are your trying to draw between these two wholly distinct entities?

By the way, your fondness for the Orthodox Church as a Catholic brings to mind a point. Have you heard of the Eastern Catholic Society of St. Josaphat (SSJK)? They are not in full communion with Rome, but they profess their loyalty to the Papacy and have not been declared to be in schism.

These two facts alone place them in better standing with the Church than the Orthodox Church, but I am betting you’re not going to have the slightest inkling of affinity for them because … they’re affiliated with the SSPX. Am I right and if so, why do you feel this way and why don’t you feel this way with the Orthodox who are even less in communion with Rome?

In Corde Regis,
Joshua

 

[Seamus_L]

Some people think it’s offensive if we pray that the Orthodox convert to Catholicism, others if we pray that the Jews convert to Catholicism. I can assure if you the shoe was on the other foot, and it probably is with some, it wouldn’t bother me in the least.

 

[malphono]

Some people think it’s offensive if we pray that the Orthodox convert to Catholicism

Perhaps it would be more apropos to pray for unity. That’s always been the goal and should not be offensive to anyone.

others if we pray that the Jews convert to Catholicism.

That is a totally different matter which has nothing to do with the current thread.

 

[Seamus_L]

I think it’s the same spirit of ecumenism that says we shouldn’t pray for the conversion of the Orthodox or Jews. Of course differences with those who practice Judaism are far far greater, but I believe it still comes down to the same principle of not offending anyone.

 

[Albizzi]

Mark, the Church has declared the Orthodox Church (in so far as it continues to refuse to accept Papal authority) to be in Formal Schism. This is a fact.

Whereas the SSPX (who I do not always find myself in agreement with) has never been declared to be in Formal Schism and the excommunications imposed upon Archbishop Lefebvre and the four Bishops have been entirely rescinded by our current Holy Father.

What link are your trying to draw between these two wholly distinct entities?

By the way, your fondness for the Orthodox Church as a Catholic brings to mind a point. Have you heard of the Eastern Catholic Society of St. Josaphat (SSJK)? They are not in full communion with Rome, but they profess their loyalty to the Papacy and have not been declared to be in schism.

These two facts alone place them in better standing with the Church than the Orthodox Church, but I am betting you’re not going to have the slightest inkling of affinity for them because … they’re affiliated with the SSPX. Am I right and if so, why do you feel this way and why don’t you feel this way with the Orthodox who are even less in communion with Rome?

In Corde Regis,
Joshua

First, I must affirm that I am not a SSPXer.
But oddly enough, many modernist catholics seem to prefer long ago schismatics or heretics like the Orthodox or the prots than the Lefebvrites who recently separated from the RCC only for a matter of obedience, not on strong dogmatic issues.
Now the separation with the Lefebvrites is on the way to be over, so this discussion will certain belong to the past within few, while the Orthodox schism and the protestant heresies remain harsh realities that nobody could overcome until now.
One has to notice that the pending talks between the Vatican and the Lefebvrites really seem to be the fruit of a “millions rosaries” campaign the SSPX launched some years ago with that aim. I personnally prayed for the SSPX reunification to the RCC to happen.
And you, Markdum, did you pray too?

 

[Albizzi]

I think it’s the same spirit of ecumenism that says we shouldn’t pray for the conversion of the Orthodox or Jews. Of course differences with those who practice Judaism are far far greater, but I believe it still comes down to the same principle of not offending anyone.

That’s a very odd opinion.
So you are asserting that the Church offended the Jews and the Orthodox for centuries in asking to pray for their conversion?
In other words you are saying that the Church was in error for a long time, 2 millenaries for the Jews.
Pls let me know from which date the Church changed her mind on that matter.

I personnally will never feel offended if the Jews or the Orthodox want to pray for my conversion to their faith since I don’t care anyway, like probably are doing the Jews and Orthodox.
This “offence” feeling among a number of catholics is very strange. How many of them will be soon ashamed to say they are Christians so that not to offence anybody?

To pray for the conversion of non believers or our brothers of other religions is a DUTY since you are to be convinced that “Nobody can go to the Father but only through Jesus” unless you deny Jesus ever said this.

 

[Seamus_L]

NO, Albizzi. I believe the Church was right in the past.

 

[malphono]

NO, Albizzi. I believe the Church was right in the past.

In “the past,” where were the prayers for the “conversion” of the Orthodox?

 

[Albizzi]

NO, Albizzi. I believe the Church was right in the past.

Yes, really?
Why then are you afraid to offend the Othodox in asking to pray for their conversions?
Why did our Lady required the Consecration of Russia to her Immaculate Heart to get this poor country’s conversion?
Did She meant by “conversion” only the fall of the communist totalitarism? The coming back to the “Holy Russia”, to the Czar’s feodal order?
Sr Lucy spoke of Russia’s consecration as a “miracle of conversion”. Do you think that today’s Russia was converted when the risk to die of a violent death in this country is three times that of the Texas, when abortion rates are at the highest level in the world, and drugs conumption and suicides too?

 

[Albizzi]

Carnelian,
You are free to believe what you want, as myself I am free to believe, that’s certain, no doubt about this, that the Orthodox people in a not too remote future will convert to the catholic faith. Our Lady of Fatima promised this if the Consecration is made properly.
And IMHO probably this conversion will be more fruitful to the Catholic Church that one thinks, in that sense that the RCC wil discover again the sense of the mysteries, of the sacred, of the magnificence of the Liturgy, a lot of things she is despising in the times being.
Is our Lady a “self appointed bigot”?

 

[mardukm]

In “the past,” where were the prayers for the “conversion” of the Orthodox?

Good question.

 

[Albizzi]

With due respect, in that you are wrong.
Since I began to dug deep in the Fatima apparitions story, I couldn’t do otherwise than to acknowledge they are not only TRUE, but the way our Lady appeared made that, on the contrary of what the Church teaches, one cannot include them in the usual classification of “private revelation”. These apparitions are one of the major events of the 20th century.

In particular the almost 70000 of people who witnessed the Miracle of the Sun on Oct 13th 1917 would laugh at you if you dared to say that they weren’t obliged to believe what they saw.
Collective hysteria you say? But there were pictures actually taken in which one cannot discern any hysteria. Were the atheist freemasons who came that day to scoff at the apparition to be classified as hysterics? One even wrote such an article in a newspaper that he didn’t scheduled to write before coming.
Some people could see the sun “dancing” in remote places 10km far from Fatima.
Scientists have given no acceptable explanation to what happened, some said it was an optical distorsion produced by the atmosphere or by ET beings, or by the Devil himself.
The problem is that (and one never will emphasize this enough) our Lady predicted in Aug 1917 to the kids the EXACT date and hour (oct 13th at noon), saying: I will perform here a great Miracle SO THAT ALL MAY BELIEVE.
Check this from your side, that is the exact Truth.
Seemingly She failed to convince many who still remain wary in their stubbornness.

 

[mardukm]

Carnelian,
You are free to believe what you want, as myself I am free to believe, that’s certain, no doubt about this, that the Orthodox people in a not too remote future will convert to the catholic faith.

Or maybe what we’ll have is not conversion, but unity with our Orthodox brethren gained through understanding each other.

Is our Lady a “self appointed bigot”?

No. Because when she spoke of the conversion of Russia, she meant from communism, not Orthodoxy.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[ljubim]

Just a thought… possibly in the future Mary will have us praying for the conversion of America.

 

[trophybearer]

Carnelian,
You are free to believe what you want, as myself I am free to believe, that’s certain, no doubt about this, that the Orthodox people in a not too remote future will convert to the catholic faith. Our Lady of Fatima promised this if the Consecration is made properly.
And IMHO probably this conversion will be more fruitful to the Catholic Church that one thinks, in that sense that the RCC wil discover again the sense of the mysteries, of the sacred, of the magnificence of the Liturgy, a lot of things she is despising in the times being.
Is our Lady a "self appointed bigot"?

The Mother of God said nothing of the sort, so the answer is an emphatic, “No!”

 

[narrowpath]

Let me say now that I don’t see any of the autocephalous Churches seeking union with Rome anytime soon. None of them are ready to concede to Rome, especially on the Papacy, or the filioque. Just look up the "Confession Against Ecumenism which recently came out from Greece.

I’ve heard a lot of people say reunion is close, but to be honest I don’t see Rome returning to Orthodoxy anytime soon…

 

[mardukm]

Let me say now that I don’t see any of the autocephalous Churches seeking union with Rome anytime soon. None of them are ready to concede to Rome, especially on the Papacy, or the filioque. Just look up the "Confession Against Ecumenism which recently came out from Greece.

I’ve heard a lot of people say reunion is close, but to be honest I don’t see Rome returning to Orthodoxy anytime soon…

It’s not just the CC, but the OO also, that is the object of their disdain, as the text specifically states. It’s sad and pathetic, and is certainly not the will of God. No doubt there will be Orthodox unionists (those attempting a reconciliation between the OO and EO with a blind prejudice against the CC) who will cite this document against the CC, but if they do, then they would merely be hypocrites.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[narrowpath]

It’s not just the CC, but the OO also, that is the object of their disdain, as the text specifically states. It’s sad and pathetic, and is certainly not the will of God. No doubt there will be Orthodox unionists (those attempting a reconciliation between the OO and EO with a blind prejudice against the CC) who will cite this document against the CC, but if they do, then they would merely be hypocrites.

Blessings,
Marduk

Its a sad thing. Its mainly this movement in Greece (especially on Mt. Athos) thats blocking OO/Eo reconciliation (I and most EO and OO consider both Orthodox). The Catholic-Orthodox dispute is deeper than that, however. There are real and large doctrinal differences.

 

[mardukm]

Its a sad thing. Its mainly this movement in Greece (especially on Mt. Athos) thats blocking OO/Eo reconciliation (I and most EO and OO consider both Orthodox). The Catholic-Orthodox dispute is deeper than that, however. There are real and large doctrinal differences.

Aside from the papal infallibility, there are no “real and large doctrinal differences.” If you would like to start threads to discuss these supposed differences (one thread per topic please ), I would be more than happy to engage you on them.

Blessings,
Marduk