How to prove the supernatural?

[Sarcelle]

The growing realization that there are such things as postulates and axioms, unprovable things that can give birth to a whole field of study such as geometry or theology, where its axiom is the existence of God.

Also the realization that science is not the the only method of inquiry that is available to us.

 

[GodIsPerfection]

Not just evidence , but hard proof !

It would be totally impossible to fake it, or deny it. No experts would be needed, it would be obvious for every observer to look up to the night sky and it could be even photographed! And it could not be explained away. The “trick” is that the laws of physics and astronomy are established beyond any doubt, not just any reasonable doubt.

Two things cannot be denied. One is the speed of light in vacuum, and the other is size and structure of the universe.

Who needs proof?

One is either configured (blessed) to correctly perceive supernatural things, like God, or one is not configured to perceive supernatural things. With respect to the latter group, God does have the ability to “awaken” anyone to the perception of His real existence at any time.

1 Samuel 3:

3 And ere the lamp of God went out in the temple of the Lord, where the ark of God was, and Samuel was laid down to sleep;

4 That the Lord called Samuel: and he answered, Here am I.

5 And he ran unto Eli, and said, Here am I; for thou calledst me. And he said, I called not; lie down again. And he went and lay down.

6 And the Lord called yet again, Samuel. And Samuel arose and went to Eli, and said, Here am I; for thou didst call me. And he answered, I called not, my son; lie down again.

7 Now Samuel did not yet know the Lord, neither was the word of the Lord yet revealed unto him.

8 And the Lord called Samuel again the third time. And he arose and went to Eli, and said, Here am I; for thou didst call me. And Eli perceived that the Lord had called the child.

9 Therefore Eli said unto Samuel, Go, lie down: and it shall be, if he call thee, that thou shalt say, Speak, Lord; for thy servant heareth. So Samuel went and lay down in his place.

10 And the Lord came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

Matthew 13: 9 - 16

9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

 

[STT]

It is impossible to prove supernatural realm unless you witness it. It is however impossible to disprove it by striving to physics since physics is an approximation of reality.

 

[mdgspencer]

There has been proof, but it hasn’t had any effect.
An example: the miracle of the sun at Fatima, seen by many thousands of people. The world doesn’t want to hear about it, and so this story isn’t told among men, except for a few people.

 

[Shakuhachi]

I think this is a problem all of us atheist/agnostics face concerning miracles. We want verifiable evidence and the supernatural just does not provide it.

Right, just because we may not have a current explanation does not mean it must be supernatural.

 

[Pattylt]

Right, just because we may not have a current explanation does not mean it must be supernatural.

I always feel like that’s a bit of a cop out, though. Actually, there is very little we haven’t explained. The big questions like life beginning and cause of the Big Bang are not explained yet and it’s true it may be in the future but those really don’t concern the everyday miracles claimed by religions. They claim God in the big ones and I just go with I don’t know. But the here and now or recent miracles? Those are explained.

 

[MPat]

The “trick” is that the laws of physics and astronomy are established beyond any doubt, not just any reasonable doubt.

So, does it mean we can cut funding for Physicists?

Two things cannot be denied. One is the speed of light in vacuum, and the other is size and structure of the universe.

Not only they can be doubted, there are people who are quite successful in doubting them.

This would be a true miracle, undeniable by any skeptic.

So, let’s say there really was such a miracle.

And…? Then what…?

Would you fall on your knees, loudly sing praises to God for having mercy on you, telling everyone around that you were a dishonest and prideful fool?

Things I would accept…a limb regrowing, something verifiable that defies physical law…things like that. It’s too much to ask for.

No, you won’t accept a limb regrowing.

Look at Miracle of Calanda - Wikipedia - you will soon invent further requirements.

 

[Pattylt]

No, you won’t accept a limb regrowing.

No, I won’t accept a doubtful story from the 1600’s. I wouldn’t doubt a current regrowth verified by modern medicine as unexplainable. I’m not dogmatic on the supernatural…I’m just very skeptical. Every more recent miracle I’ve look into has some problems and most often those problems are misunderstanding what they saw or lying.

I don’t just read the story of the miracle. I also read the reports that refute or debunk them by qualified people. When those qualified people have no explanation, I will give a big plus to the supernatural side. I agree, it may take more than one but a regrown limb would be huge…yet, we have none since modern medicine arose.

 

[MPat]

No, I won’t accept a doubtful story from the 1600’s. I wouldn’t doubt a current regrowth verified by modern medicine as unexplainable. I’m not dogmatic on the supernatural…I’m just very skeptical. Every more recent miracle I’ve look into has some problems and most often those problems are misunderstanding what they saw or lying.

I don’t just read the story of the miracle. I also read the reports that refute or debunk them by qualified people. When those qualified people have no explanation, I will give a big plus to the supernatural side. I agree, it may take more than one but a regrown limb would be huge…yet, we have none since modern medicine arose.

So, let’s give you the same question, as to “Abrosz”.

Let’s say there really was such a miracle, that you would accept.

And…? Then what…?

Would you fall on your knees, loudly sing praises to God for having mercy on you, telling everyone around that you were a dishonest and prideful fool?

Or would you do something else?

 

[Pattylt]

Or would you do something else?

I would believe in God again. And after all my years of struggling with the God question, I’d be relieved to find Him again. I’m not a drama person so I doubt I’d fall on my knees as I rarely ever prayed that way…I have bad knees! :hugs:. I would, however, have a very long conversation with Him!

 

[MPat]

I would believe in God again. And after all my years of struggling with the God question, I’d be relieved to find Him again. I’m not a drama person so I doubt I’d fall on my knees as I rarely ever prayed that way…I have bad knees! :hugs:. I would, however, have a very long conversation with Him!

And yet, bad knees and “not being a drama person” as such are not obstacles to saying that you were a dishonest and prideful fool.

Well, would a miracle like that make you believe that you were a dishonest and prideful fool? That there was something very wrong about you, that kept you an atheist?

Or would you say that everything about you was mostly fine, you just didn’t have evidence that was good enough?

 

[Pattylt]

Well, would a miracle like that make you believe that you were a dishonest and prideful fool? That there was something very wrong about you, that kept you an atheist?

I’ve have always tried to be as honest as possible. I would obviously realize I was wrong and that my pride might have been in the way. But, I don’t think I was a fool. I tried my darndest to believe. I spent years trying to hold on to my faith and I failed. That I was wrong, I would fully admit. Like I said, I try to be honest, especially with myself. I would certainly discuss this with God. If He felt that I would benefit from declaring I was a prideful, dishonest fool, I would certainly do so…after I get an explanation of how I was dishonest. Wrong, certainly. But, how was I dishonest?

 

[MPat]

I’ve have always tried to be as honest as possible. I would obviously realize I was wrong and that my pride might have been in the way. But, I don’t think I was a fool. I tried my darndest to believe. I spent years trying to hold on to my faith and I failed. That I was wrong, I would fully admit. Like I said, I try to be honest, especially with myself. I would certainly discuss this with God. If He felt that I would benefit from declaring I was a prideful, dishonest fool, I would certainly do so…after I get an explanation of how I was dishonest. Wrong, certainly. But, how was I dishonest?

Yes, if you would start to believe after getting an extraordinary piece of evidence, there would be no reason for you to think there was anything especially wrong with you until that time.

Such a miracle would lead you to belief without a “loss of face”.

And yet, let’s look at some conversion stories. Of John C. Wright (A Question I Never Tire of Answering » John C. Wright's Journal), of Edward Feser (Edward Feser: The road from atheism), of J. Budziszewski (https://www.undergroundthomist.org/sites/default/files/WhyIAmNotAnAtheist.pdf). In each of it they point out that there was something very wrong with them. They write things like “Yet I do believe that some kind of self-deception lies at the root of all atheism.”, “And if, while in that mindset, what you’re reading from the other side are seemingly archaic works, written in a forbidding jargon, presenting arguments and ideas no one defends anymore (or at least no one in the ‘mainstream’), your understanding is bound to be superficial and inaccurate.”…

So, all those conversions include “loss of face”.

And what if this “loss of face” is actually highly desirable? What if there is something very wrong with you, and you have to face this fact?

In such case, wouldn’t a miracle of the kind that allows you to “save face” be counterproductive, wasting a good opportunity to achieve that goal for little benefit?

 

[Dan_Defender]

Geometry is one of my favorite subjects in school and it has played a role in my faith development.

Yes. Honeybeecombs are made up of hexagons because that geometrical shape results in the least amount of wax as building material. If God gave that knowledge to bees, how much more did He give to humans?

 

[Pattylt]

And what if this “loss of face” is actually highly desirable? What if there is something very wrong with you, and you have to face this fact?

I fully admit right now that there is something about my brain that makes me not believe. When I lost my faith, not only was it an extremely painful experience, I also thought I was the only person in the world that didn’t believe in God or the divine. I didn’t even know there was a name for it! This is way before the internet.

Loss of face just means embarrassment, does it not? I’m not sure how embarrassed I’d be…obviously realizing how wrong I was would be humbling, for sure. But, I came by my agnosticism honestly and I would face my error honestly as well. I’m too old to be worried about what others think.

 

[Shakuhachi]

I think the natural / “supernatural” distinction is false anyway. There are things we think we know and understanding and there are things we don’t. But it is all the same universe. Miracles do not mean much to me. My response is, “Sure, why not?”

 

[FiveLinden]

I’d accept any of the miracles, attested by scientific observation, noted in the New Testament. Walking on water, raising a decomposing corpse, hundreds of the dead rising and walking around, even withering trees by an act of will.

I find modern miracles used in the canonisation process to be unimpressive and their ‘scientific’ attestation to be below standards (no peer review, for one example). Most as noted above seem to consist of spontaneous remission of conditions in which spontaneous remission is an uncommon but known part of the development of the condition.

Tis_Bearself would have us believe that such spontaneous remission is a result of God’s actions But if the purpose of a miracle is to demonstrate an intervention by God, why do the interventions always fail to demonstrate this, and require prior faith? This was not the case of the New Testament miracles and in at least one case a doubter was allowed to conduct an empirical investigation so he could believe (Thomas).

 

[Dan_Defender]

This was not the case of the New Testament miracles

How do you know this? there may have been many people whom Jesus refused to heal. The NT only tells us about the mighty works for those who had faith.

 

[lelinator]

MPat:

Well, would a miracle like that make you believe that you were a dishonest and prideful fool? That there was something very wrong about you, that kept you an atheist?

I’ve have always tried to be as honest as possible. I would obviously realize I was wrong and that my pride might have been in the way. But, I don’t think I was a fool. I tried my darndest to believe. I spent years trying to hold on to my faith and I failed. That I was wrong, I would fully admit. Like I said, I try to be honest, especially with myself. I would certainly discuss this with God. If He felt that I would benefit from declaring I was a prideful, dishonest fool, I would certainly do so…after I get an explanation of how I was dishonest. Wrong, certainly. But, how was I dishonest?

It would seem rather obvious which of you two is the most prideful and foolish…and it isn’t PattyIt.

At least PattyIt is willing to accept that there are things that would cause her to admit that she was wrong, and that’s a very humble and honest admission, one that I doubt that you’re capable of emulating.

I’m willing to bet that there’s absolutely nothing that anyone can possibly conceive of, that would cause you to disavow your belief in God. Now you might consider this to be a sign of your unshakeable faith, but some people might say that it’s actually a sign of your own stubborn pride.

 

[jochoa]

I find the ability to ponder divine questions, such as:
If you were the Creator of everything,

1. what would be the greatest creation?
2. why would that be the greatest creation?
3. what would be the logical means to fulfill the greatest creation?

to be a supernatural ability because not only does it go beyond human nature, furthermore, aside from humans and God, I know of no other beings to ponder such questions.