How to re-educate so that people will understand about abortion?

[fix]

If one choice is self destruction, I’d love to know what the other is.

Why does it matter?

So, is it possible to support an election process where one option is self-destruction without supporting self-destruction? I’d say it is.

So, you support a process that includes the possibility life would be wiped out? Is popular vote good regardless of what the “choices” are?

 

[magyarprincess]

trust me children are not taught about abortions in school. children are just taught about contraception and the schools try to avoid the subject completely. i think that there needs to be some sort of public announcement like those suggested to help people understand the seriousness of abortion. on tv most shows talk about getting pregnant outside of wedlock and discuss abortion as an option. many times abortion is not picked but the characters do not discuss why it is so wrong so it leaves no lasting impression on teenagers. teenagers see other teens on tv having sex and think that it is ok and that everyone does it. and even those characters that are role models and preach abstinence fall in love and suddenly decide to give up on their morals and have sex. abstinence needs to be taught to more people so that they understand that it is the only pregnancy prevention that is 100% guaranteed. it is not helping that the gag law was just overturned by obama so now it will be easier for teens to get free abortions while those who pay taxes and are completely against abortion pay for it. i think that it is essential for something to be done about this issue. i am only 15 years old and it scares me when i hear my friends, who i respect, are losing their virginity and yet have no idea what dark road could be ahead of them if they continue with their ways and conceive a child that i know they are not ready for financially or emotionally.

 

[Drawmack]

Sigh…OK, you can run to the dictionary if you wish.
It still does not hide the evil of abortion.
And it will leave others wondering where this precise control over the English language was when the pro-abortion side was hauling out the pro-choice sentence fragment.

And it will leave others laughing at the reckless usage of a dictionary when this same dictionary counters their own argument.

Witness the rest of the definition that you failed so loudly to quote…

And how about another dictionary for good measure…

Meanwhile the premise that killing an innocent life is an option is still sick and providing for the option is tacit approval of abortion.

Here’s a little lesson in how to use a dictionary. Each of those numbered entries under a word is considered a complete definition of that word. If the word being used meets any one of these numbered entries then it is a correct usage of the word. So, I quoted one definition for each word, the definition that said it was a correct usage. I then provided a link to the actual entry so others could check and make sure my quotation was complete and correct. Quoting another definition does not invalidate the definition I quoted it simply shows that you lack the ability to effectively utilize the accepted tool of linguistic acuity. And, that other dictionary you quoted still has a definition that supports this usage of the term. Thanks for linking to the original!

 

[Drawmack]

You assume far too much. I simply asked Wille a question, and how do you know if he is Catholic or not since it doesn’t say?

I didn’t assume anything, I asked a question. An assumption would mean that I made a statement based on something I had determined without being explicitly told. Asking a question is not making an assumption it is seeking clarification.

 

[allhers]

trust me children are not taught about abortions in school. children are just taught about contraception and the schools try to avoid the subject completely. i think that there needs to be some sort of public announcement like those suggested to help people understand the seriousness of abortion. on tv most shows talk about getting pregnant outside of wedlock and discuss abortion as an option. many times abortion is not picked but the characters do not discuss why it is so wrong so it leaves no lasting impression on teenagers. teenagers see other teens on tv having sex and think that it is ok and that everyone does it. and even those characters that are role models and preach abstinence fall in love and suddenly decide to give up on their morals and have sex. abstinence needs to be taught to more people so that they understand that it is the only pregnancy prevention that is 100% guaranteed. it is not helping that the gag law was just overturned by obama so now it will be easier for teens to get free abortions while those who pay taxes and are completely against abortion pay for it. i think that it is essential for something to be done about this issue. i am only 15 years old and it scares me when i hear my friends, who i respect, are losing their virginity and yet have no idea what dark road could be ahead of them if they continue with their ways and conceive a child that i know they are not ready for financially or emotionally.

Here’s a good site on absistence that might help you to help your friends that I ran across.
Judie Brown on EWTN website once referred this one.

Some people still can learn absistence even after first failing.

ampartnership.org

 

[Drawmack]

Another area we all need to keep educated on is the ability of others in the debate to toss in a red herring. This is actually an attempt to distract from the argument at hand and to avoid the uncomfortable topic of abortion.
In this instance, the opposition here would like to place abortion on par with the election cycle.
It sounds strange to me too, but they nonetheless try.
It is an outgrowth of an attempt to claim the ‘choice’ to kill innocent human life without taking upon themselves the responsibility. They wish to defend the ending of human life as a viable option but at the same time wish to absolve themselves of the hideous reality of holding onto the option to kill a human life.
It is a myopic view in which they fail to see that merely holding taking a life as an option carries enough blood to dirty their hands.

You are absolutely correct. The abortion debate is littered with red herrings which should be avoided. The pro-choice use red herrings like: we don’t know when life begins, religion is the only reason for pro-life, etc. The pro-life use red herrings like: we can’t call you pro-choice because it isn’t a [valid] choice, pro-choice view abortion as no more serious than buying a soda, pro-choice people are murderers, etc. These are all red herrings and they should all be avoided in this debate.

This is actually akin to those that claim that ‘they would never have an abortion, but cannot inflict their morality on others’
And is also akin to those centuries ago that said “I would never own a slave, but cannot inflict my morality on others.”

Here is another red herring. This is when we take something that is universally viewed as morally reprehensible and then compare it to something that is not universally viewed as morally reprehensible. It is an argument from emotion rather than an argument from logic. Any serious pro-choice person will have references ready for this argument where priests and bishops were the ones saying those things and then they will tell you that yes we should treat abortion the same way we treated slavery.

It is a sham made up of a false sense of morality that places the liberty of one over the life of another.

You are correct, but we need to express this in a non-emotional way that the opposition will actually listen to if we want them to hear us.

The only answer I have to it all at present is to keep hammering the reality.
The line is crossed when the choice to kill an innocent human life is considered a valid choice.

Yes we should speak of the reality, but we should speak of the reality with kindness and love for the person sitting across the table from us.

 

[limerick]

trust me children are not taught about abortions in school. children are just taught about contraception and the schools try to avoid the subject completely. i think that there needs to be some sort of public announcement like those suggested to help people understand the seriousness of abortion. on tv most shows talk about getting pregnant outside of wedlock and discuss abortion as an option. many times abortion is not picked but the characters do not discuss why it is so wrong so it leaves no lasting impression on teenagers. teenagers see other teens on tv having sex and think that it is ok and that everyone does it. and even those characters that are role models and preach abstinence fall in love and suddenly decide to give up on their morals and have sex. abstinence needs to be taught to more people so that they understand that it is the only pregnancy prevention that is 100% guaranteed. it is not helping that the gag law was just overturned by obama so now it will be easier for teens to get free abortions while those who pay taxes and are completely against abortion pay for it. i think that it is essential for something to be done about this issue. i am only 15 years old and it scares me when i hear my friends, who i respect, are losing their virginity and yet have no idea what dark road could be ahead of them if they continue with their ways and conceive a child that i know they are not ready for financially or emotionally.

**
You are confusing naievete with morals - this is not a solid moral code if one abandons it as soon as a guy picks up the tab for dinner or sees a friend having sex at the local dance.
True on t.v., true in real life.

Limerick **

 

[fix]

Here is another red herring. This is when we take something that is universally viewed as morally reprehensible and then compare it to something that is not universally viewed as morally reprehensible. It is an argument from emotion rather than an argument from logic. Any serious pro-choice person will have references ready for this argument where priests and bishops were the ones saying those things and then they will tell you that yes we should treat abortion the same way we treated slavery.

It is no red herring. It is an apt analogy. The only problem is abortion is worse.

It is not about emotion. It is about moral truth. Any pro abort who offers quotes from bishops or priests that claim support for chattel slavery should do better research in terms of what the Church has always taught and what the role of the magisterium is.

 

[allhers]

Well Drawmack, just to prove to you that I don’t feel at all threatened by non-Catholics.

Would you cae to share with us your views on this topic:
How to re-educate so that people will understand about abortion?

 

[royal_archer]

Those additions in green are all valid, and there certainly could be more. So, by supporting the election choice, does one support all the possible election outcomes?

This is why the “pro choice” label is not applicable to those who support abortion. They do not support any of the other choices; they dedicate their financial support to only one of the potential choices.

 

[WillieWonka]

This is why the “pro choice” label is not applicable to those who support abortion. They do not support any of the other choices; they dedicate their financial support to only one of the potential choices.

The moderator says this issue is off topic, so I won’t be participating in this thread any further. Good luck.

 

[Drawmack]

It is no red herring. It is an apt analogy. The only problem is abortion is worse.

It is not about emotion. It is about moral truth. Any pro abort who offers quotes from bishops or priests that claim support for chattel slavery should do better research in terms of what the Church has always taught and what the role of the magisterium is.

It absolutely is a red herring to compare abortion to slavery. It is, in no way, an apt analogy. Are you forgetting that slavery was ended by Lincoln to get the blacks to stop fighting for the south. There was no moral high ground about the abolition of slavery, it was outlawed to win a war. The 3/5 rule wasn’t even repealed for many years after that.

No, the pro-abortionist who offers such quotes would simply be pointing out the ever present hypocrisy that exists within the Catholic Church. Take the teaching on causing scandal and people protesting in a scandalous manner.

 

[Drawmack]

The moderator says this issue is off topic, so I won’t be participating in this thread any further. Good luck.

Actually, I thought that Walt was talking about the election comparisons going around. Walt, could you clarify what was off topic please?

 

[Drawmack]

Well Drawmack, just to prove to you that I don’t feel at all threatened by non-Catholics.

Would you cae to share with us your views on this topic:
How to re-educate so that people will understand about abortion?

I have been doing this for 41 pages now, but here’s a summary.

First, if you really want to re-educate people you absolutely must drop the inflammatory and uncivil rhetoric from your speech on the topic. Be honest, be truthful but find a way to do so without resorting to emotionalism and incivility. If you resort to emotionalism and incivility then you actually weaken your own case and risk those you seek to re-educate not listening to you.

Second, I think that we should fight for enforcement of the informed consent laws in relation to abortion. In my opinion, these laws are blatantly ignored, if not out right mocked, in relation to abortion. Informed consent includes a description of exactly what the procedure is and does, all possible side effects, and all possible alternatives to the surgery. To really do informed consent properly the person contemplating abortion should go through about a week long class teaching them all this stuff.

Third, I think that people should become active (I don’t care what side you’re on become active in educating people). I already do this. I do this by holding workshops, provided free of charge, to pregnant teenage girls at risk of getting an abortion. It is a series of four workshops.

The first workshop is called “It’s Your Choice” and I go through the stages of gestation week by week explaining exactly what the fetus looks like, what has developed, etc. And, I also cover what means of abortion is used at that week and how the fetus is extracted as well as possible injuries to the mother as a result. At the end of this (2 hour) workshop I ask the girls one question, “A choice to abort is a choice to __________.” At this point they often say things like murder. I don’t have to rely on rhetoric, I don’t have to use improper terminology, I simply have to arm them with the truth.

The second workshop is called “Your Other Choices” in this two hour workshop I cover adoption, raising the child alone, etc. Much of the focus is on adoption and the agencies which provide these services (A big one being Catholic Social Services whom I work closely with and whom I put my daughter up for adoption through 15 years ago) free of charge to the biological mother.

The third workshop is called “You Are Not Alone” in this two hour workshop I cover all the types of help the government provides to single mothers and child support laws.

The fourth workshop is called “Now You Are Ready” in this one hour workshop I recap the other three workshops and give the girls an hour to talk to one another and become a support group for each other.

80% of the girls who go through this workshop with me do not choose to abort their child. In the time that I have been doing this that is over 200 babies, real live babies who were born instead of aborted and many of the mothers have stated that it was because of my workshop that they chose life.

If you want to re-educate people about anything, including abortion, you need to approach them as a teacher would. If you approach someone in a confrontational, or what they perceive to be confrontational, manner they will not listen to you because you will induce a fight or flight response.

As I have shown, in many posts on this thread, I know what I’m talking about here.

 

[royal_archer]

Here is another red herring. This is when we take something that is universally viewed as morally reprehensible and then compare it to something that is not universally viewed as morally reprehensible. It is an argument from emotion rather than an argument from logic. Any serious pro-choice person will have references ready for this argument where priests and bishops were the ones saying those things and then they will tell you that yes we should treat abortion the same way we treated slavery.
.

I agree in one sense but before I say why please consider this:

It is a logical argument in that it applies the logic used by the pro abortion people in other related areas. A is wrong, b is wrong, c is simmilar to a and b, and therefore the reasons a and b are wrong may apply to c.

It also adds a necesary emotional point of reference for those who are not able to fully understand the left brain annalytical reasons why murder is wrong. Some people can not make the intelectual decision that treeting some individuals as second class citizens is wrong. (out of sight and out of mind it does not feel wrong to them.) By giving them concrete examples they can relate to, it provides something they can understand.

However the reason I agree with you is that the active pro abortion types have their eyes closed by satan. In general they have been brain washed and conditioned to filter out these logical arguements. These arguements are only effective on those who are cassually ambiguous to the issue and are willing to hear both sides of the argument.

 

[royal_archer]

The moderator says this issue is off topic, so I won’t be participating in this thread any further. Good luck.

:stretcher:

 

[limerick]

I have been doing this for 41 pages now, but here’s a summary.

First, if you really want to re-educate people you absolutely must drop the inflammatory and uncivil rhetoric from your speech on the topic. Be honest, be truthful but find a way to do so without resorting to emotionalism and incivility. If you resort to emotionalism and incivility then you actually weaken your own case and risk those you seek to re-educate not listening to you.

Second, I think that we should fight for enforcement of the informed consent laws in relation to abortion. In my opinion, these laws are blatantly ignored, if not out right mocked, in relation to abortion. Informed consent includes a description of exactly what the procedure is and does, all possible side effects, and all possible alternatives to the surgery. To really do informed consent properly the person contemplating abortion should go through about a week long class teaching them all this stuff.

Third, I think that people should become active (I don’t care what side you’re on become active in educating people). I already do this. I do this by holding workshops, provided free of charge, to pregnant teenage girls at risk of getting an abortion. It is a series of four workshops.

The first workshop is called “It’s Your Choice” and I go through the stages of gestation week by week explaining exactly what the fetus looks like, what has developed, etc. And, I also cover what means of abortion is used at that week and how the fetus is extracted as well as possible injuries to the mother as a result. At the end of this (2 hour) workshop I ask the girls one question, “A choice to abort is a choice to __________.” At this point they often say things like murder. I don’t have to rely on rhetoric, I don’t have to use improper terminology, I simply have to arm them with the truth.

The second workshop is called “Your Other Choices” in this two hour workshop I cover adoption, raising the child alone, etc. Much of the focus is on adoption and the agencies which provide these services (A big one being Catholic Social Services whom I work closely with and whom I put my daughter up for adoption through 15 years ago) free of charge to the biological mother.

The third workshop is called “You Are Not Alone” in this two hour workshop I cover all the types of help the government provides to single mothers and child support laws.

The fourth workshop is called “Now You Are Ready” in this one hour workshop I recap the other three workshops and give the girls an hour to talk to one another and become a support group for each other.

80% of the girls who go through this workshop with me do not choose to abort their child. In the time that I have been doing this that is over 200 babies, real live babies who were born instead of aborted and many of the mothers have stated that it was because of my workshop that they chose life.

If you want to re-educate people about anything, including abortion, you need to approach them as a teacher would. If you approach someone in a confrontational, or what they perceive to be confrontational, manner they will not listen to you because you will induce a fight or flight response.

As I have shown, in many posts on this thread, I know what I’m talking about here.

**Informed consent can delay the abortion procedure. For details, check out the following:

books.google.com/books?id=F7q3TB6_koYC&pg=PA26&lpg=PA26&dq=informed+consent**

L

 

[Drawmack]

**Informed consent can delay the abortion procedure. For details, check out the following:

books.google.com/books?id=F7q3TB6_koYC&pg=PA26&lpg=PA26&dq=informed+consent**

L

It doesn’t matter, the fact is that we have informed consent laws and those laws are not abided when it comes to abortion. Abortion is a voluntary medical procedure and therefore it should be subject to the same laws as other voluntary medical procedures. If a doctor gives you a collagen injection without properly informing you of the possible side effects of the procedure they can be sued for malpractice, why should abortion be any different?

 

[limerick]

It doesn’t matter, the fact is that we have informed consent laws and those laws are not abided when it comes to abortion. Abortion is a voluntary medical procedure and therefore it should be subject to the same laws as other voluntary medical procedures. If a doctor gives you a collagen injection without properly informing you of the possible side effects of the procedure they can be sued for malpractice, why should abortion be any different?

**When you are presenting the phase entitled, “It’s Your Choice”, do you specifically explain to your students that informed consent should be an integral part of their decision making, but if a woman is bumping up against the second trimester of pregnancy, and she chooses abortion, she will likely have to undergo a medical rather than a surgical abortion? Do you explain that if they choose abortion as their option to an unwanted pregnancy, they will have to make two trips to the clinic and not just show up one afternoon saying, “I want an abortion today!”? Do you explain to them that if they are from another state, or if they are underage, informed consent could take long enough that it might alter their options? Or do you simply overlook these critical details of informed consent and then allow these girls to declare, “A choice to abort is a choice to __________ (what? kill? murder? terminate? aspirate”? How do you lead them to fill in the blank here?) This sounds like indoctrination, not re-education, or even education. This sounds eerily like “Who is God?” “God is the Supreme Being Who made all things.”

I got rhinestone trinkets for answering indoctrination questions correctly in 1960. What’s the going rate today?

Limerick**

 

[Drawmack]

When you are presenting the phase entitled, “It’s Your Choice”, do you specifically explain to your students that informed consent should be an integral part of their decision making, but if a woman is bumping up against the second trimester of pregnancy, and she chooses abortion, she will likely have to undergo a medical rather than a surgical abortion?

I explain each week of gestation. In this process I explain exactly what stage of development the child is at (Before you ask I use the scientific terms to refer to the blastocyst, embryo, fetus, etc) and what type of abortive procedures are used. I stated this in my first post and then you asked a question that this statement answers. Limerick, I like you – I really do – but please read my posts before responding to them.

Do you explain that if they choose abortion as their option to an unwanted pregnancy, they will have to make two trips to the clinic and not just show up one afternoon saying, “I want an abortion today!”?