How to re-educate so that people will understand about abortion?

[St_Francis]

Yeah well, I’m not the only one who’s left the Church over the it.

Has the Church been teaching that those arguing against abortion should compare abortion with the US institution of slavery?

 

[limerick]

I was taught absistence, I was not told how to properly put a condom on someone, I was not taught that I needed to protect myself from sperm, I was not told that I had to know how to properly take artificial birth control, I was not told that sex was a right that I was
entitled to. I was taught to remain pure and that when I was Married it would be a beautiful
experience. I was taught to remain open to life, I was taught that sex between one man and one woman in the Sacrament of Marriage was Sacred.

I was taught a lot of beautiful things when I was growing up, by my parents, Nuns and Priests and not once did I feel the need to listen to the “world” instead. I didn’t ever go into a planned parenthood building, or think that perhaps my parents and teachers were wrong and that maybe I ought to consider having sex before marriage because afterall, what was wrong with that?

I was told it was sinful, I was told it was an offense to God, I was told the truth, not lies.

When I was a teenager, I never worried every month if I was late, I never had a V.D., I
never had multiple partners, I never felt like maybe I was misinformed, I didn’t think that
the culture that I found myself living in was a good one. I grew up in the drug and free sex
era where it seemed like most people were not living the Sacramental life that I was.

Looking back, I would do it all over again. But…people that I know who didn’t listen
and instead deceided to listen to the “world” and p.p. and all the other evils have told me that if they had to do it all over again, they would have remained pure.
They would have stayed a virgin until they Married and they would have never had sex with so many people and that they would have never taken birth control, or aborted their babies or adopted their babies out. They would instead have done what I did.

There is no ignorance, sin or abortion going on in absistence education.

**I was not taught abstinence. I was never shown a condom until I was in my mid-twenties, nor was I instructed how to use one. I was not taught that I needed to protect myself from sperm either. I had no idea what artificial birth control was, how to get it, or how to use it. I was not told that sex was a right or that it was wrong; I was told that sex could have repercussions, but was not instructed what it was, when it was likely to occur, or how to protect myself in any case of sexual encounter. I was certainly not told by anyone that I was entitled to a sexual relationship until I began to understand the complete picture of womanhood, responsibility, accountability, and honesty and fairness in relationships.

In my experience, purity was a concept that covered everything from the disallowing of girls wearing the dreaded patent leather shoes, to perpetually sitting with one’s knees together, to attempting to maintain a constant state of prayer. The management of one’s sexuality was not referred to in frank terms; it was always shrouded in mystery as parents and teachers attempted to keep it at bay. They thought if they ignored it it would go away. I was taught nothing about marriage, but I learned plenty from watching my own parents battle it out, intellectually, verbally, financially, and through their disagreements about parenting and discipline. Hence I learned that when I married (lower case “m”) it would be a fight, a disappointment, an absolute stripping of autonomy for the wife. Sex was never presented as a “beautiful experience”. I am convinced my parents had sex a total of four times, as there were four children born to them.

Open to life: the first I have ever heard this term brought up in conversation was on this forum. Growing up, I did hear some talk about the sacredness of marriage, but I never saw it modeled; and as a stereotype it was as impossible to swallow whole as an entire white picket fence.

So … sometimes children have to teach themselves and, man, to they learn the hard way. Mental illness, STDs, pregnancy, abortion, having to pose as a married woman in neighboring state to get birth control pills which were about 15 times stronger than what I wanted or what is prescribed today. Alcoholism, drug addiction, all manner of law-breaking, international border disputes surrounding possession, ruined relationships, one very sorry marriage, complete surrender of self due to a soul sickness so deep it is incomprehensible to those who have not experienced it.

Yet … children learn. I learned. I don’t believe any child should be put in a position where s/he has to take the long way around. I support education - correct, accurate, comprehensive education for all kids - and adults if they are poorly education with regard to sexual matters. I believe it has to begin when the kids are infants - so they can experience a loving home, so they can see their parents respecting each other, being kind and considerate of each other, allowing each other the room to exist authentically and fully within the marriage. I loathe stereotypes, but if people believe they are happy living within stereotypes, that’s great.

Our experiences are polar opposites. One point on which we differ is regarding abstinence. I believe there is profound ignorance served up to children and adults alike when abstinence ONLY is promoted. But I don’t think we disagree on every point of this topic.

Limerick**

 

[allhers]

I was taught absistence, I was not told how to properly put a condom on someone, I was not taught that I needed to protect myself from sperm, I was not told that I had to know how to properly take artificial birth control, I was not told that sex was a right that I was
entitled to. I was taught to remain pure and that when I was Married it would be a beautiful
experience. I was taught to remain open to life, I was taught that sex between one man and one woman in the Sacrament of Marriage was Sacred.

I was taught a lot of beautiful things when I was growing up, by my parents, Nuns and Priests and not once did I feel the need to listen to the “world” instead. I didn’t ever go into a planned parenthood building, or think that perhaps my parents and teachers were wrong and that maybe I ought to consider having sex before marriage because afterall, what was wrong with that?

I was told it was sinful, I was told it was an offense to God, I was told the truth, not lies.

When I was a teenager, I never worried every month if I was late, I never had a V.D., I
never had multiple partners, I never felt like maybe I was misinformed, I didn’t think that
the culture that I found myself living in was a good one. I grew up in the drug and free sex
era where it seemed like most people were not living the Sacramental life that I was.

Looking back, I would do it all over again. But…people that I know who didn’t listen
and instead deceided to listen to the “world” and p.p. and all the other evils have told me that if they had to do it all over again, they would have remained pure.
They would have stayed a virgin until they Married and they would have never had sex with so many people and that they would have never taken birth control, or aborted their babies or adopted their babies out. They would instead have done what I did.

There is no ignorance, sin or abortion going on in absistence education.

Would some call this bias?

 

[limerick]

I wrote: …and perhaps in churches when the schools wouldn’t permit this. (In which case, one could add a part about pregnancy prevention, perhaps focusing on the best means available).

In which case: ie, if given in churches.

(And do you deny that abstinence is the best way to avoid pregnancy?)

**Abstinence is the best way to avoid pregnancy, but it is an unrealistic and incomplete approach to educating young people about their sexuality. If we could get them all to stand twelve feet apart until they are at the altar, you would be sainting and I would be doing the dishes right now - neither of us would be discussing abortion on this forum today.

Limerick**

 

[Drawmack]

**You are suggesting bias here. Drawmack specifically stated there is absolutely no bias in the presentations in her workshops.

Limerick**

I agree except for the fact that I am not a her.

 

[Drawmack]

Has the Church been teaching that those arguing against abortion should compare abortion with the US institution of slavery?

Members of the teaching magistrium have been doing that. The Church also teaches that receiving an abortion severs one from communion with the Church but raping your 6 year old step daughter does not.

 

[allhers]

Members of the teaching magistrium have been doing that. The Church also teaches that receiving an abortion severs one from communion with the Church but raping your 6 year old step daughter does not.

That last part is a sick and evil lie, the Church does not teach that at all.

 

[Drawmack]

That last part is a sick and evil lie, the Church does not teach that at all.

I highly recommend that you look at what happened in Brazil – the step-father was not excommunicated.

 

[limerick]

I agree except for the fact that I am not a her.

**My mistake, my apology.

L**

 

[allhers]

I highly recommend that you look at what happened in Brazil – the step-father was not excommunicated.

He would also not be in Communion with the Church unless or until he fully repented.

I know all about what happened to that little girl in Brazil.

 

[vz71]

Abstinence is the best way to avoid pregnancy, but it is an unrealistic and incomplete approach to educating young people about their sexuality.

If I had a dime for every youth that has specifically mentioned this argument as a deep insult to everyone, I would be a rich man.

 

[vz71]

Members of the teaching magistrium have been doing that. The Church also teaches that receiving an abortion severs one from communion with the Church but raping your 6 year old step daughter does not.

Please, quote the specific works that shows the church teaching this.

If you cannot, kindly retract this baseless charge.

 

[allhers]

Drawmack,

Do you even understand the purpose of excommunication?
Do you have any idea why it is automatic when an abortion is sought out and done?

 

[Drawmack]

He would also not be in Communion with the Church unless or until he fully repented.

I know all about what happened to that little girl in Brazil.

The mother and doctors were publicly excommunicated, the step-father was not. The implication in this action is that aborting a child results in excommunication while continuously raping a girl from the age of 6 to 9 does not.

 

[Drawmack]

Please, quote the specific works that shows the church teaching this.

If you cannot, kindly retract this baseless charge.

In Brazil a woman and two doctors were publicly excommunicated for aborting, or allowing the abortion of, twin fetuses from a 9 year old girl. The step-father of the girl, who was the father of the babies was not excommunicated (publicly or privately). Ergo: Abortion = Excommunication; raping a 6 year old <> excommunication.

 

[Drawmack]

Drawmack,

Do you even understand the purpose of excommunication?
Do you have any idea why it is automatic when an abortion is sought out and done?

Allhers,

Yes I do. I spent countless hours consulting with an army of priests and bishops about my issues with this before I decided that I could no longer call myself a Catholic in good conscious.

To be in communication (in this sense) means to be in communion. To be excommunicated means to no longer be in communion. If these people incurred latae sententiae excommunication then so be it, they can go to confession, perform their penance and be recommunicated. However, these three people were publicly excommunicated. While the step-father who raped a girl from the age of 6 to 9 was not publicly, or privately, excommunicated.

I’m not even going to get into the breach of do not cause scandal here. However, the implication is clear to everyone who isn’t blind or stupid.

It’s really pretty simple. Abortion = Excommunication; Raping a 6 year old does not.

You can tell me I’m wrong all you want. You can attempt to sugar coat this in any way you want. You can do any verbal gymnastics you need to do in order to support a corrupt institution that would use Jesus words to teach this that you like. But, do not expect me to turn a blind eye to this travesty.

 

[Drawmack]

He would also not be in Communion with the Church unless or until he fully repented.

I know all about what happened to that little girl in Brazil.

They were publicly excommunicated, he was not. Abortion = excommunication; raping a 6 year old child does not.

Oh an yes, I do expect the moderators to delete these posts. Certainly this is off the topic of abortion, after all I’m only talking about abortion here.

 

[vz71]

The Church also teaches that receiving an abortion severs one from communion with the Church but raping your 6 year old step daughter does not.

Please, quote the specific works that shows the church teaching this.

If you cannot, kindly retract this baseless charge.

In Brazil a woman and two doctors were publicly excommunicated for aborting, or allowing the abortion of, twin fetuses from a 9 year old girl. The step-father of the girl, who was the father of the babies was not excommunicated (publicly or privately).

This does not show the church teaching any such thing.

Since you cannot cite the specific church teaching, please retract your baseless charge.

 

[allhers]

Allhers,

Yes I do. I spent countless hours consulting with an army of priests and bishops about my issues with this before I decided that I could no longer call myself a Catholic in good conscious.

To be in communication (in this sense) means to be in communion. To be excommunicated means to no longer be in communion. If these people incurred latae sententiae excommunication then so be it, they can go to confession, perform their penance and be recommunicated. However, these three people were publicly excommunicated. While the step-father who raped a girl from the age of 6 to 9 was not publicly, or privately, excommunicated.

I’m not even going to get into the breach of do not cause scandal here. However, the implication is clear to everyone who isn’t blind or stupid.

It’s really pretty simple. Abortion = Excommunication; Raping a 6 year old does not.

You can tell me I’m wrong all you want. You can attempt to sugar coat this in any way you want. You can do any verbal gymnastics you need to do in order to support a corrupt institution that would use Jesus words to teach this that you like. But, do not expect me to turn a blind eye to this travesty.

The Church is not a corrupt institution. A man made a free will choice to commit an evil and sick act against a child. He committed a mortal sin, he obviously was not in Communion with the Church when he made that decision, the Church does not condone mortally sinful acts.

As to the Catholic parents and Catholic Doctors
Thou shalt not kill.

They as Catholics, took part in a direct evil and even when they knew this, were warned by the Church, whose opinion they sought out, they still went ahead and did it.

No one, least of all me, or the Church is turning any blind eye to the father. No one thinks he is or was in communion with the Church when he did that. The only way he ever could be is first he would have to be Catholic, second, he would have to Repent and sin no more.

It has always been an automatic excommunication for one to procure an abortion, that is nothing new.

Everyone, even those who do procure abortions are entitled to our loving God’s mercy.
Everyone, if they are sincere, and only He can really read anyone’s soul.

Catholics who publicly defy the Church, whom they sought out for advice, who were given that advice and were told the consenquences to choosing evil over the world’s opinion and then still choose that evil need to be publicly chastised.

If only we’d do more of that here.

You Drawmack, serve no one by telling the baseless lies you are claiming here about the Church, you are not better than the Church and I seriously wonder if you ought to be teaching any children anything.

 

[vz71]

You can attempt to sugar coat this in any way you want. You can do any verbal gymnastics you need to do in order to support a corrupt institution that would use Jesus words to teach this that you like. But, do not expect me to turn a blind eye to this travesty.

No one has asked you to turn a blind eye to anything.

There is a simple fact here that I do not believe you are seeing.
The church has not done what you claim.

Third request here…retract your baseless accusation.