Hi NotWorthy, I believe the confusion stems from always repeating the word “Catholic” which is not in the Bible. What you really mean is the Christian faith as they were called at Antioch. The Bible teaches how to be a Christian. Catholicism teaches how to be a Roman Catholic. Ed O.
No, I said the Canon’s determined at Carthage, Hippo and the Synod of Rome all settled on the same Canon. That is the Canon that Trent happened to agree with.
I do not want it both ways. Jerome’s Vulgate is the translation used by the Church for over 1000 years. The Canon that the Church used was determined by the Council’s of Hippo, Carthage, and the Synod of Rome (?) and were accepted by the Pope.
No, the term I meant is Catholic. The Universal Church was One, just as Jesus prayed for in John and Paul espoused in Ephesians. The Universal Church is the Catholic Church, the Bride of Christ. And what She teaches, She teaches in Union with Her Bridegroom, Jesus Christ.
And then Trent declared a new canon that has been used from the past almost 500 years.
Hi NotWorthy, you are bringing back to memory my 29 yrs of my being a Catholic. I remember how I dreaded to go to confession because of the sins that I’ve committed. I felt dirty inside. Yes! after the priest told me what I must do for penance and then gave me his absolution, WOW, I felt so relieved, later Communion and real close to God. That lasted for maybe a day or two. until I began to sin again, and again, and again and again, while doing so, I felt dirty, then dirtier, dirtier, then it was time to go to that dreaded confession again. For 29 yrs. the same cycle prevailed. You see! My sinful nature had CONTROL and kept me sinning and going to confession over and over again. In summary, the only time I felt good, just as you say, after the priest gave me his absolution, then Communion THAT WAS BEFORE! What I didn’t know then, according the Bible Rev 3:10, was that Jesus was standing at the door knocking and knocking wanting to come in and take CONTROL of my life. When I opened that door and called Him in and had Him save me as Rom 10:13 states, Jesus (not physically but His Spirit) came in and now I feel the Joy of His presence ALL THE TIME. Jesus’ indwelt Spirit now keeps me from sinning. I’m a new creation as 2Cor 5:17 states, “he becomes a new person inside.” My new (Christ) nature did a 180 degree turn-around. What I once liked to do, I now hate to do as Eph 5:5 states, no more, dirty stories, foul talk, coarse jokes etc… In summary: You have much Joy after the priest gives you his absolution,(I once felt that way too) while I have the Joy of Christ ALWAYS 24–7–365. Until you get to where I am now, you’ll never be able to understand what I’m talking about. That’s why you can’t understand a saved person. While you are going through the various steps to get saved, there’s a much easier way, do what the apostles taught the first century Christians to do. It’s in the Bible. I wouldn’t think of lying to you, I can assure you it works, it did for me. ED O.
First, your post brings great sadness. As I mentioned, I couldn’t conceive of leaving the Catholic Faith, for I know what that would mean.
The Church that Christ Built! And so, to see someone willingly walk away from that Church, even if its out of misplaced understandings, is sad.The Catholic Church didn’t keep you from changing your sinful ways, Ed. Would you suggest to us that if you had NOT been born and raised Catholic, that your 29 years would’ve been different? …and that you would’ve avoided much of that sinful behavior you kept repeating? It’s not the Church’s fault that you didn’t know what true repentance was, that you didn’t attempt to deepen your relationship with Christ through prayer and the Eucharist. I’m frankly tired of hearing all the blame toward the Church for the failings of Her members to do their part in responding to the call of Christ. The Church is your scapegoat for your sinful years, Ed. Granted, sound catechesis seems to have been grossly lacking for you, but that’s not JUST the Church’s fault Ed. Catechesis takes the Church, the family, and YOU personally. If you can honestly tell us you did everything you could do for yourself, and that your family was there to support and guide you along the way…and despite all that, the Church kept you from having a “true relationship” with Christ, then maybe I’ll join you in blaming the Church for teaching you so poorly. But even then, that’s all it would be, Ed…poor Church catechesis, attributable to the failing of the persons charged with teaching you the faith. It would not be because the Church doesn’t know about Christ and how to have a true relationship. They’ve known the authentic means of that since Christ walked the earth. How much in that 29 years did you REALLY attempt to learn the Catholic faith, Ed? I mean, really learn it for yourself. I know they didn’t have Catholic Answers back then, Ed…but how many times did you read about the Saints, the Doctors of the Church, the Catechism? Or did the Church demand that you never read these things?..as I’m sure you’ll also blame them for demanding that you never read the Bible too.
NotWothy
First, your post brings great sadness. As I mentioned, I couldn’t conceive of leaving the Catholic Faith, for I know what that would mean.
So, in summary, your post was a whirlwind of emotions.
Hi NotWorthy, I’m sorry if I hit a bad nerve, sometimes the truth hurts. I never left the true Christian (you call Roman Catholic) church. It could very well be that you left the true Christian church and digressed to the Roman Catholic church. If Peter, Paul and the other apostles didn’t need indulgences, and five more sacramentsI etc. etc. etc. to get saved, then I don’t need them either. ED O.
No problem. I’m quite used to the non-Catholic habit of piece-mealing written text, and stitching it all together in a way that suits whatever it is they want it to say.
Amen.
Again, I’m not talking about the minimalist self-proclaimed “Christian” here…this is not about OSAS being a teaching that can lead to erroneous concepts of “free sinning”. I fully understand the reality that that problem is a rarity, the exception and not the rule. I’m talking about the problems of OSAS teaching that salvation is a one-time past event, and how that teaching carries with it a diminishment of the significance and full understanding of sin. Some Catholic minimalists may see confession as a free sin pass, but they atleast are taught about the significance of sin, namely the avoidance of it, in their lives. But again, I’m not talking about the minimalist here. I’m talking your average Christian or better, who doesn’t see OSAS nor confession as “free sin passes”.
Again, the minimalist extreme…something I am not talking about in any of my posts. Shall I remind you that from the get, I was simply explaining the problem of OSAS only as it revolves around the erroneous teaching that salvation is a one-time event. YOU were the one who started in on this accusation that I claim it teaches the “free pass to sin” idea. That’s your idea, not mine. So, when you calm down and see that you’re fighting against your own strawman, and taking this sidebar of OSAS to a place I never took it, then perhaps we can discuss it more civilly…or perhaps just drop it.
:shrug:Again, nothing here related to what I’m talking about. You clearly have some sort of previous debate history with OSAS which you brought to this discussion, and it seems to have incapacitated your ability to read a couple simply worded posts and extract the limited scope of my comments.
Please remember that, when studying Scripture, that the Bible was compiled by the Church; therefore, whatever the interpretation is, it should mirror that of the Church. I don’t care how one reads the Bible, but as long as it is understood as the Church’s book, that’s fine with me.
Hi Steve, thanks for your reply. You bring up a good point. Did you know that the Bible was included in the index of forbidden books banned by pope Paul IV. The ban was lifted after the Vatican Council II in 1964. While I attended Catholic grade and some high school, we had no Bibles. I’m not an isolated case, I came from a very large family with cousins who were members in at least four different Catholic parishes all taught the same way. What makes things even more interesting, while Protestants read the Bible for 500 yrs. Now the Catholics became such great Bible scholars since 1964. By the way I never called you or any other Catholic asinine, it was the statement that NotWorthy made that I called asinine. ED O .
Hi NotWorthy, Do you know that what you call the Universal church teaches that a Muslim or a Jew can be saved without Christ. That’s what Universal means,it takes in everybody.---- Source: Our Sunday’s Visitor’s Catholic Encyclopedia p.863 ED O.
I have no historical knowledge of this ban…so I’d appreciate a source for your claim. I do know that the Church has historically encouraged the laity to read the Bible, but has also discouraged (or perhaps banned) the reading of unauthorized and deliberately altered translations of it. I also know that any discouragement of reading Scripture has not been a prohibition from reading it all together, but rather an admonishment to take care to read it in light of the apostolic tradition and teaching that the Church possesses. To fail to do so can easily lead to a departure from the one true faith, as readers attempt to define their own doctrine and start their own mini-churches based on their personal interpretations outside the Church. We see where that has gotten us since those “500 years”.
Apparently you do have a problem. You should pray about this. In this forum, I have been called a liar, an heretic, told I have a demon riding on my back, and those comments were not made in jest. I have also been told that I don’t really believe what I say I believe and had a snippets of my comments posted distorting what I’ve said. My response to the latter was to quote the post and show the comment in its context.
If most Protestants understood OSAS the way you claim, most Protestants would not inconvenience themselves to witness for Christ nor avoid sinning, nor give money nor time to help the needy, and certainly not risk there lives as missionaries in anti-Christian countries.
I realize I used a Catholic source which is going to make my point. But it doesn’t change the fact even they admit
It’s been a long time since I was Catholic, but it seems I was taught something about this.
I think you’ve got that backwards.
No, really…I don’t.
I should indeed pray about lots of things. This isn’t one of them.
You haven’t received any of that from me. Seems to me you might want to direct your rebuttals toward the individuals actually deserving of them.
Not by me.
Again, no problem with you having fun…but I’m not the one doing any of these things you’re talking about here.My response to the latter was to quote the post and show the comment in its context.The difference here is I said directly following your quotes, that I was having some fun with them - unlike the Catholics who directly and falsely accuse me.
thanks for the apology, but you didn’t
all non-catholics? accusation? can you show me any of this I wrote?
where did I make such a blanket statement about all protestants?
didn’t say I knew for a fact
I didn’t contradict myself, nor deny something I previously affirmed. That’s what you cleverly made it look like though, by cutting and pasting. I clearly said that I wasn’t taught that I had a “free pass to sin”, as you sarcastically suggested (out of nowhere)…and then I said that what I was taught was what many (not all) non-Catholics are still taught to this day…that salvation is a one-time event (once saved), and that you cannot change your mind and lose it after that event (always saved). This is not a contradiction, because I affirmed that I was taught one thing, and I denied I was taught something entirely different. Not that either of us care anymore, but it’s all in post 162.
]Again, the way I claim is not OSAS as a free sin pass…that’s what you somehow managed to make it look like I was saying.
What “facts” are those? Can I retrieve them from somewhere? Or are they your opinions and observations? …which is all I’m using in my statements…my own experiences. I don’t claim to know any “facts” about the behavior of all protestants. I know for a fact many saintly and noble non-Catholics who are taught the concepts of OSAS (in it’s true form, not the made-up “free sin pass” form). So, my comments about it are not directed toward all…just toward most that I know, and mostly about myself as a protestant…
Steve, go back and read your posts. You suggested I took your comments out of context to intentionally mislead, when in fact I posted that the quotes cited were done in jest.
