How to resolve this dilemma?

[vern_humphrey]

metrolink 13 take your signature and use it yourself look in the full OT for the church.you will find the catholic church,

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Note that metrolink 13 actually cited John 6, 63 as “proof” Christ did not mean the bread and wine became his body and blood.

Let’s take that pericope in context:

47 Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
48 I am the bread of life.
49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died;
50 this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die.
51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."
52 The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?”
53 Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”
59 These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
60 Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?”
61 Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, “Does this shock you?
62 What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.
65 And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.”
66 As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.

And note that Jesus did not run after those who left, saying, “Hey, y’all, come back! I was only funnin’ you.”

He meant it literally, they took it literally and left him. And He did not correct their “error” because it was not an error – they understood Him.

 

[guanophore]

metrolink 13 take your signature and use it yourself look in the full OT for the church.you will find the catholic church,

I don’t think metrolink13 is here to learn anything, just a hit and run anti-Catholic pass. I could be wrong, but the anti-Catholic website that was taken from is a clue.

 

[METROLINK13]

Reposted without comment;

LOL

 

[anthony022071]

You seem to be assuming that the ECF were all unanimous in every opinion. Most cults continue to change and “develop doctrine” over time, so it is not possible to identify a specific date for a “breaking point.”

I don’t make the assumption that they were all unanimous in their opinions. The point is that they belonged to the Catholic Church,and they acknowledged Rome as the head of the whole Church,and that Rome was the fount of orthodoxy.

“It is obvious; the faith allows it; the Catholic Church approves; it is true.” Augustine, Sermon 117:6 (c. A.D. 397).

“Number the bishops from the See of Peter itself. And in that order of Fathers see who has succeeded whom. That is the rock against which the gates of hell do not prevail” Augustine, Psalm against the Party of Donatus, 18 (A.D. 393).

“Once on a time then, Agrippinus, bishop of Carthage, of venerable memory, held the doctrine–and he was the first who held it --that Baptism ought to be repeated, contrary to the divine canon, contrary to the rule of the universal Church, contrary to the customs and institutions of our ancestors. This innovation drew after it such an amount of evil, that it not only gave an example of sacrilege to heretics of all sorts, but proved an occasion of error to certain Catholics even. When then all men protested against the novelty, and the priesthood everywhere, each as his zeal prompted him, opposed it, Pope Stephen of blessed memory, Prelate of the Apostolic See, in conjunction indeed with his colleagues but yet himself the foremost, withstood it, thinking it right, I doubt not, that as he exceeded all others in the authority of his place, so he should also in the devotion of his faith. In fine, in an epistle sent at the time to Africa, he laid down this rule: Let there be no innovation–nothing but what has been handed down.’” Vincent of Lerins, Commonitory for the Antiquity and Universality of the Catholic Faith, 6 (A.D. 434).

“I have often then inquired earnestly and attentively of very many men eminent for sanctity and learning, how and by what sure and so to speak universal rule I may be able to distinguish the truth of Catholic faith from the falsehood of heretical depravity; and I have always, and in almost every instance, received an answer to this effect: That whether I or anyone else should wish to detect the frauds and avoid the snares of heretics as they arise, and to continue sound and complete in the Catholic faith, we must, the Lord helping, fortify our own belief in two ways; first, by the authority of the Divine Law, and then, by the Tradition of the Catholic Church…Therefore, it is very necessary, on account of so great intricacies of such various error, that the rule for the right understanding of the prophets and apostles should be framed in accordance with the standard of Ecclesiastical and Catholic interpretation” Vincent of Lerins, Commonitory for the Antiquity and Universality of the Catholic Faith, 2:4,5 (A.D. 434).

 

[METROLINK13]

metrolink 13 take your signature and use it yourself look in the full OT for the church.you will find the catholic church,

AS FAR AS I REMEMBER YOU CAN PASTE INFO RELATED TO THE SUBJECT IN THIS FORUM AS LONG AS YOU GIVE CEDIT TO THE AUTHOR RIGHT?

OH AND BELEIVE ME I DO SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES DAILY.

SAVES TIME TO PASTE THINGS I ALREADY AGREE WITH AFTER SEARCHING THE WORD, CONSIDERING THIS RATIO OF 1 CHRISTIAN TO/100 CATH’S.

 

[guanophore]

What is your purpose in coming to CAF? It does not seem like you really have an dilemma to resolve…

 

[Agnes_Ainsworth]

Transubstantiation which teaches that the communion bread is the literal body of Christ, and that one cannot be saved unless he takes the communion in the Catholic Church.NOT IN THE BIBLE.

Venial and Mortal sins - unscriptural teachings about the sinlessness of certain sins. NOT IN THE BIBLE.

Indulgences - in exchange for donations to the Catholic Churches, the priesthood absolved the donors of their guilt, allowing them to commit adulteries, fornications and many other sins. NOT IN THE BIBLE.

Confessionals - the Catholic Church taught the people to confess their sins to the Priests instead of confessing to God. NOT IN THE BIBLE.

Purgatory, Limbo and Prayers for the Dead - the Catholic Church teaches unscriptural beliefs about the destiny of the soul. It teaches that through gifts and donations, deceased loved ones can be prayed into heaven, regardless of the lives they lived or what they believed. Prayers to the Saints, contradicting the Lord’s Prayer which Jesus prescribed to the Father only. NOT IN THE BIBLE.

Veneration of and Prayers to the Virgin Mary - The Pope himself prays to the Virgin, and John Paul II credited her with saving his life in an assassination attempt. She is called the Mother of God, Tower of David, Ark of the Covenant, Gate of Heaven, Morning Star, and Refuge of Sinners among other blasphemous titles. NOT IN THE BIBLE.

Mariology - Throughout the Roman Catholic Church, Mary is being listened to through visions, apparitions, weeping statues, and various demonic revelations. The Spirit of Mary is credited with the fall of Communism in the USSR, and multitudes of pilgrims travel to places where the Virgin is said to have appeared - over 600 cities worldwide in all. NOT IN THE BIBLE.

Idolatry - statues and icons by the multitudes play significantly into the Catholic religion. NOT IN THE BIBLE.

The Supreme Pontiff - The Pope - According to the Catholic Doctrine, the pope is the Vicar of Christ - the stand-in for Christ. They call him Holy Father, when the Jesus taught to call no man your father except God. The pope claims to have the keys to the kingdom delivered to Peter by Jesus Christ, and claims Apostolic Succession to Peter as the first Pope. Strangely enough, the Pope refuses to preach the message Peter preached in Acts 2:38. And they claim he is infallible. NOT IN THE BIBLE.

The Mass - only those who take communion in the Roman Catholic Church at the hands of a Roman Catholic Priest can be saved. NOT IN THE BIBLE.

The Rosary - Jesus specifically preached against vain repetitions in prayer, and nowhere in the Bible is ritualistic praying taught. “Hail Marys” are based on Elizabeth’s greeting to Mary, which was never a prayer in the first place. We are not to pray to saints. Even the angels in heaven rebuked men for venerating them. kenraggio.com/KRPN-CatholicErro.htm

When did the Catholic Church go wrong then?
See the prayer SUB TUUM PRAESIDIUM -THE ORIGINAL PAPYRUS (dated 3rd century) FOUND IN EYGYPT IN 1917 AND NOW IN THE JOHN RYLANDS LIBRARY IN MANCHESTER (ENGLAND)

"We fly to thy patronage, O Holy Mother of God, despise not our petitions in our necessities,but deliver us from all dangers, O Glorious and ever Virgin.

Mary is the “Woman” of Genesis 3;15 and Revelation 12;1 so she is mentioned in the Bible at the beginning and the end. Jesus identifies His Mother as the “Woman” when he addresses her at Cana and from the Cross as “Woman”, a title which seems to puzzle Protestants. At Cana, Mary interceded and Jesus acceded to her request, even though His time had not yet come. Fom the cross, Jesus gave Mary to be the spiritual Mother of all mankind when He said “Son, behold thy mother.” Considering that the Church held these Truths continuously through her history, I suggest that it is arrogance to come along fifteen hundred years later and say it doesn’t mean that. To emphatically deny it is to claim infallibility which Protestants deny to the Catholic Church. Mary appears around the world and is given the description of Revelation 12:1 by children (mainly) who do not know anything about Revelation.

God’s perfect justice requires a Purgatory for the saved who die as believers but have committed sins they haven’t repented of. In the Gospel last Friday Jesus says…".I tell you solemnly, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny". This is a metaphore for Purgatory. Also the book Maccabees says " It is a holy and wholesome thought to prayfor the dead that they may be loosed from their sins. There are many references from the early Church that Masses were offered for the dead on their anniversary. Justification is by faith but salvation judgement is on works as many Scripture passages show, the chiefone in Matthew 25:31-46.

 

[wanner47]

AS FAR AS I REMEMBER YOU CAN PASTE INFO RELATED TO THE SUBJECT IN THIS FORUM AS LONG AS YOU GIVE CEDIT TO THE AUTHOR RIGHT?

OH AND BELEIVE ME I DO SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES DAILY.

SAVES TIME TO PASTE THINGS I ALREADY AGREE WITH AFTER SEARCHING THE WORD, CONSIDERING THIS RATIO OF 1 CHRISTIAN TO/100 CATH’S.

Metro, just so you know, it’s considered impolite to post with all caps on an Internet forum. It’s the equivalent of shouting, and it makes your posts hard to read.

Have you read the links that I provided?

I find it very troubling that you agree with what you posted, because none of it accurately says what the Catholic Church really teaches. In fact, most of what you posted is an outright lie, and you know who the Father of Lies is, right? That should tell you something about your “source.”

I really encourage you to find out what the Church ACTUALLY teaches about the matters you mentioned, and then come here to discuss your concerns with us.

 

[METROLINK13]

I don’t think metrolink13 is here to learn anything, just a hit and run anti-Catholic pass. I could be wrong, but the anti-Catholic website that was taken from is a clue.

YOU COULD LEARN ALOT FROM THAT SITE …WHY DONT YOU READ THIS ITS ESPECIALY FOR CATHOLICS LIKE YOU
gotquestions.org/Catholic-questions.html

We are not bashing the Catholic Church, and we do not hate Catholics. We simply believe there are some serious doctrinal problems with the Catholic Church that need to be addressed Biblically…-gotquestions.org

 

[wanner47]

YOU COULD LEARN ALOT FROM THAT SITE …WHY DONT YOU READ THIS ITS ESPECIALY FOR CATHOLICS LIKE YOU
gotquestions.org/Catholic-questions.html

We are not bashing the Catholic Church, and we do not hate Catholics. We simply believe there are some serious doctrinal problems with the Catholic Church that need to be addressed Biblically…-gotquestions.org

Metro, all of the links I posted above refute the information presented on the site that you linked.

If you’d prefer not to wade through all of them, then you can start here to learn what the Church REALLY teaches instead of what you THINK it teaches.

 

[METROLINK13]

What is your purpose in coming to CAF? It does not seem like you really have an dilemma to resolve…

oh me and your buddy Vern Humphrey are speaking icon language, why dont you tell him that since he started it? or are you prejudice.

 

[vern_humphrey]

We are not bashing the Catholic Church, and we do not hate Catholics. We simply believe there are some serious doctrinal problems with the Catholic Church that need to be addressed Biblically…-gotquestions.org

As I read that post, I could hear me sainted Irish Mither talking to you – “Your tongue is going to turn black and fall out of your head.”

 

[vern_humphrey]

oh me and your buddy Vern Humphrey are speaking icon language, why dont you tell him that since he started it? or are you prejudice.

You’ve obviously run out of ammuntion and had to resort to personal attacks.

 

[Nick_Jones]

The Apostle warns against private interpretation and urges the brethren to cling to the traditions they have been taught by the Apostle whether by word or by epistle.
No protestant organizations, in that case, can claim to represent or be the True Church as they did not exist in the world until at best 1,500 years after the Apostles died.
Only the CC can have preserved the Apostolic traditions to which the Apostles attached so much importance.

And if those traditions were lost then the Church Christ founded failed and hell did prevail against the Church He built - and made a liar of God.

What is clear is that no protestant or other organization could have carried those traditions through that 1,500 year gap in history.

What 1,500 year gap in history? Here again, you assume the very thing that needs to be proven–that there was a “gap” in church history. How on earth are you going to prove that?

 

[Nick_Jones]

And only one Church has continuity with the New Testament Church. Those that sprang up a millinium and a half later have no connection with the New Testament Church.

What KIND of connection are you expecting to find? Wouldn’t you expect it to be those that emulate the NT churches?

 

[Nick_Jones]

I don’t think metrolink13 is here to learn anything, just a hit and run anti-Catholic pass. I could be wrong, but the anti-Catholic website that was taken from is a clue.

I think it is quite clear that his posts are very well informed and well reasoned from Scripture. The problem you’re having is that you have no reasonable response…so you attack the messenger. That kind of nonsense doesn’t help your case very much.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Thread is wandering far off topic and is closed.

Reminder: One topic per thread.
MF