How to Respond Gracefully - Gay Friend Getting Married

[Welshrabbit]

Very true. I guess I just personally prefer absolutes. One of the things that I found so attractive about Catholicism before I converted was the fact that there are clear teachings contained within a large green book that I can reference…there’s something very comforting in having that at my disposal.

 

[goout]

“a housewarming gift” sounds like an endorsement of their new “home together”, to me…
and in itself, is also lacking in more important expressions of Christian concern that reflect God’s intentions and will for His creations, human persons.

A housewarming gift might sound like an endorsement of homosexuality, depending on the ears that are hearing.
It might also be simple kindness. A gift does not detract from human nature or God’s will, unless it is intended to make such a statement.

 

[sorrowful1]

Okay, now I got it. Couldn’t have found a better and a more clear explanation. Thank you!!

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Very true. I guess I just personally prefer absolutes. One of the things that I found so attractive about Catholicism before I converted was the fact that there are clear teachings contained within a large green book that I can reference…there’s something very comforting in having that at my disposal.

I found it the same way. I was so gratified to discover that in Catholicism, the rules are the same for everyone, the same expectations exist for everyone, and there is no “opt-out” of saying “I just don’t believe that’s wrong”. Everyone follows the same rules, and suffers the same hardships, with common-sense exceptions such as it being imprudent for an alcoholic to tend bar or work in a liquor store, an involuntary pedophile working in child care, and so on.

The “conscience” advocacy of the past 30-40 years, then, was deeply disagreeable to me, and it remains so — to say that something is wrong for Peter because he believes it’s wrong, but it is not wrong for Paul because he doesn’t believe it’s wrong, is not only outrageous but is very bad for morale. How is Peter, for instance, supposed to feel, if he’s struggling to practice NFP, and then sees Paul getting by with using contraception — far easier to use — with impunity because his “conscience” tells him it’s okay for him? How would it work in the military, if some soldiers followed orders, and others didn’t, because they didn’t see the point of it? How would it work in the business world, if some employees did what they were told by the boss, and others didn’t, because they didn’t agree with it? In schools and universities, where some students don’t do the assignments because they don’t think they should have to? My point should be clear. Are we not the Church militant? Are we not disciples? Do we not all read the same Bible and have the same magisterium?

 

[TC3033]

As for non-Catholics — and there is no nice way to say this — very often, in spite of what the Church says about non-Catholic marriages being assumed valid until proven otherwise, non-Catholic marriage situations are impossibly tangled (we are quickly following suit), with sometimes multiple marriages and divorces in each spouse’s past.

Maybe sometimes, but I wouldn’t say often…at all (and if it was…if I knew the couple that much that I was invited to the wedding I’d probably know.)

No, I am saying that in the modern world, with all of the motley past that so many spouses, especially those beyond a certain age, bring to the altar in non-Catholic weddings, it is almost impossible sometimes to ascertain “which of those marriages, if any, would the Catholic Church regard as the ‘real’ one?” .

Um…Wow.

I hope I’m not reading that right.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

I think I hear what you’re getting at, but the main distinction is this.

A divorced and remarried heterosexual union could and might someday become valid (death of former spouse, annulment, etc).

But a same sex marriage never will be.

 

[phil19034]

I think I hear what you’re getting at, but the main distinction is this.

A divorced and remarried heterosexual union could and might someday become valid (death of former spouse, annulment, etc).

But a same sex marriage never will be.

I have to be honest, I think that’s a distinction that doesn’t matter.

A divorced and remarried heterosexual couple (without annulment) commits adultery every single time they engage in sexual acts.

If their real spouse(s) die, they still committed adultery. They need a very good confession (which MOST don’t do unless they have a major reconversion later in life). Furthermore, unless they get remarried in the Church (which again, most don’t do unless they have a major reconversion later), they are still fornicating

So while in theory there is a distinction, in practice the distinction almost doesn’t exist.

 

[TheLittleLady]

The wedding, no. “Congratulations” per se , no, but there are ways to nuance that,

A simple “I love you” is always appropriate

 

[Lara]

It’s usually the gay person that puts an end to the friendship in my experience. When you tell people the truth, it’s very difficult for them to handle.

I can easily distinguish between the sinner and the sin, but gay people cannot see that distinction. They take it personally and feel they’ve been called a sinner. If you don’t accept their relationship, they believe you don’t accept them. No friendship can sustain that lack of foundation.

In truth, most of these situations will not be fully discussed between friends. Drifting apart is what will happen. The OP may end up with children herself and not desire the bad influence of the lesbian couple around her kids.

 

[TheLittleLady]

I do not tend to stay in friendships where the other person admonishes me as if they had the authority of my parents did when I was under their roof or as my Pastor and Bishop have now.

Christ did not say “by this will all men know you are my disciples, by how well you point out sin in others”. In fact, in the parables of the Pharisee and the Sinner praying in the temple, or the parable about the splinter in the eye, He directed us to take care of mending our own lives.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

What makes you think she said “abomination”?

There’s a world of nuance between “I disagree” and “abomination”.

When one of my cousin’s son came out at age 11, another cousin, an atheist , said (to the mother) “at his age he might outgrow it”.
The mother flew into a rage and wouldn’t hear a word of it.

So yeah, not every LGBT or ally is humble and scared and begging for approval from a big mean world.

 

[redbetta]

Way to make a caricature of her position.

 

[TMC]

Way to make a caricature of her position.

I think it was a fair summary.

 

[TMC]

What makes you think she said “abomination”?

There’s a world of nuance between “I disagree” and “abomination”.

That is not what the poster said. Maybe let her say what she meant, if I misunderstood her.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

As for non-Catholics — and there is no nice way to say this — very often, in spite of what the Church says about non-Catholic marriages being assumed valid until proven otherwise, non-Catholic marriage situations are impossibly tangled (we are quickly following suit), with sometimes multiple marriages and divorces in each spouse’s past.

Maybe sometimes, but I wouldn’t say often…at all (and if it was…if I knew the couple that much that I was invited to the wedding I’d probably know.)

No, I am saying that in the modern world, with all of the motley past that so many spouses , especially those beyond a certain age, bring to the altar in non-Catholic weddings , it is almost impossible sometimes to ascertain “which of those marriages, if any, would the Catholic Church regard as the ‘real’ one?” .

Um…Wow.

I hope I’m not reading that right.

Not clear where your incredulity is coming from, but I would say that you’re reading that precisely the way I wrote it.

It might be a regional or a cultural thing. Come down South sometime (assuming you’re not already here) and you’ll see precisely what I’m talking about. If someone is over the age of 35 — at which point it would be a second or third marriage, nobody stays single down here that long — some of the marital histories would make your head explode. We are talking about some people who get married the weekend after they graduate from high school. Seriously. One could always take the approach that “I won’t attend any weddings unless both spouses have no obvious second marriages”, but then you wouldn’t be going to all that many weddings. If that became a problem, you might want to move to some small-town Catholic monoculture somewhere, assuming you could find one, but small towns tend to have issues, just different ones — you’re going to see the same people over, and over, and over again, so make sure you like them, and that they like you.

I can easily distinguish between the sinner and the sin, but gay people cannot see that distinction. They take it personally and feel they’ve been called a sinner. If you don’t accept their relationship, they believe you don’t accept them. No friendship can sustain that lack of foundation.

As I said above, they’re looking for ratification. When people in general have resolved to live a lifestyle that they have been raised to see as sinful, or that is regarded as sinful by a large part of the population, they want other people to reassure them that they’re okay. Again, that nagging feeling that what they are doing is wrong, and they want to reorganize the Church, the world, and everything and everyone around them, to make sure that nobody ever reminds them of that fact. I’ve seen enough of it. I know what I’m talking about.

 

[TheLittleLady]

When people in general have resolved to live a lifestyle that they have been raised to see as sinful, or that is regarded as sinful by a large part of the population, they want other people to reassure them that they’re okay.

My experience as the daughter and grandaughter of preachers, raised as conservative Christian as you can get, when I decided to live with my boyfriend (later my husband), when I became pregnant outside of marriage, I did not want to be reassured that I was okay. I kept it a secret, fearing the shunning that (in my mind) would happen if anyone found out.

 

[TC3033]

Not clear where your incredulity is coming from, but I would say that you’re reading that precisely the way I wrote it.

As a non-Catholic…you make it sound like every non-Catholic wedding brings a spouse with some sort of questionable past.

If someone is over the age of 35 — at which point it would be a second or third marriage, nobody stays single down here that long

My sister’s first marriage was over age 35…

Ya, must be a cultural thing

they want other people to reassure them that they’re okay.

Honestly…no, that’s not what they’re looking for. They want the people closest to them to be part of a day that’s special to them.

Again, that nagging feeling that what they are doing is wrong, and they want to reorganize the Church, the world, and everything and everyone around them, to make sure that nobody ever reminds them of that fact.

Disagree – They don’t have a “nagging feeling” of what they’re doing is wrong. They have a feeling of getting nagged every time someone tells them they believe what they’re doing is wrong.

Like I said, they just want the people closest to them to be part of their special day, not some sort of reassurance.

I’ve seen enough of it. I know what I’m talking about.

Ditto

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

Not clear where your incredulity is coming from, but I would say that you’re reading that precisely the way I wrote it.

As a non-Catholic…you make it sound like every non-Catholic wedding brings a spouse with some sort of questionable past.

No, I am merely saying that many non-Catholic couples bring to a marriage a confusing, difficult-to-sort-out-from-a-Catholic-perspective history of past marriages. For instance, their first spouse’s mother was Catholic, but the spouse was never baptized, or maybe they were, nobody’s quite sure, and that spouse married a Baptist at their church — invalid due to lack of canonical form, or not? Second spouse was married before, but their spouse had gotten married when they were 16, then divorced… maybe your head isn’t hurting yet, but mine certainly is! Again, none of us can be walking tribunals, nor are we called upon to be. Taking the rigorist stance I described earlier is also an option, though not a well-received one.

HomeschoolDad:

they want other people to reassure them that they’re okay.

Honestly…no, that’s not what they’re looking for. They want the people closest to them to be part of a day that’s special to them.

Again, that nagging feeling that what they are doing is wrong, and they want to reorganize the Church, the world, and everything and everyone around them, to make sure that nobody ever reminds them of that fact.

Disagree – They don’t have a “nagging feeling” of what they’re doing is wrong. They have a feeling of getting nagged every time someone tells them they believe what they’re doing is wrong.

I will concede that it could depend upon the individual. Some people do act in bad conscience and run away from that fact. I had a friend one time break down and admit to me that she knew she was in an illicit relationship (which she was), and wanted to find a way out of it, but in the end, she just couldn’t go through with it, and remained with her illicit consort.

Typically, non-Catholics (unless they are Orthodox Jews who do not have a get, or possibly some very conservative Anglicans or Orthodox Christians) do not regard themselves as unfree to marry, as long as they have a legal divorce. There may be people out there like that, but I’ve never met any of them.

 

[stacie]

There are so many sins.

Same-sex sex strikes me as such a minor one. Yet it gets condemned so much.

I agree with C.S. Lewis that sins of the flesh are pretty minor, as sins go.

I wish corporal punishment of children got as much attention - it is a sin worse by orders of magnitude.

 

[27lw]

…

My argument is that no where in the Bible or Catholic teaching does it say which is worse (sodomy vs adultery). They are BOTH bad and should be BOTH CONDEMNED equally.

Sodomy is called a “sin that cries out to heaven”.

What Are Sins That Cry to Heaven for Vengeance and Sins against the Holy Spirit? | Catholic Answers Q&A