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VanitasVanitatum
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It is consistent and easier to defend. Also people will get jealous with selective enforcement so it’s not worth the hassle even if it is somehow technically true.
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Irishmom2
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Again, I asked about two people that are not Catholic.
No one said anything about them becoming Catholic. Are actually implying that marriages of non-Catholics that have remarried are invalid?
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Elf01
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Yes. At least I would not give them the presumption of validity.
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do_justly_love_mercy
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I don’t think a wedding card is really the place to tell a lesbian couple about the Catholic Church’s teachings about homosexuality and marriage. At best, they would think it was very eccentric.
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VanitasVanitatum
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I don’t see how a remarriage would be valid if they are divorced. Either the first one wasn’t valid somehow, but the second is or the first one is valid and then there is the problem of how that could be reconciled with another valid marriage.
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jeannetherese
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I wonder if this might be what you are looking for? It’s from the Compendium in appendix B:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html#B)%20FORMULAS%20OF%20CATHOLIC%20DOCTRINE
Then we have the USCCB on the spiritual works of mercy:
http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-te...lee-of-mercy/the-spiritual-works-of-mercy.cfm
admonishing the sinner
Do not judge, but be supportive in helping others find their way and correct their mistakes. Together we can learn to walk more closely with Christ.- In humility we must strive to create a culture that does not accept sin, while realizing that we all fall at times
- Don’t judge, but guide others towards the path of salvation (see Mt 7:1-2)
- When you correct someone, don’t be arrogant. We are all in need of God’s loving correction.
- We should journey together to a deeper understanding of our shared faith
- “Remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter from your brother’s eye” (Mt 7:5)
https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04394a.htm
From the article: Fraternal correction is here taken to mean the admonishing of one’s neighbor by a private individual with the purpose of reforming him or, if possible, preventing his [sinful] indulgence. This is clearly distinguishable from an official disciplining, whose mouthpiece is a judge or other like superior, whose object is the punishment of one found to be guilty, and whose motive is not so directly the individual advantage of the offender as the furtherance of the common good. That there is, upon occasion and with due regard to circumstances, an obligation to administer fraternal correction there can be no doubt. This is a conclusion not only deducible from the natural law binding us to love and to assist one another, but also explicitly contained in positive precept such as the inculcation of Christ: “If thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother” Matthew 18:15(. Given a sufficiently grave condition of spiritual distress calling for succour in this way, this commandment may exact fulfilment under pain of mortal sin.
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OK, I see where you’re coming from. I was using the Southern culture as the most dramatic example of what can happen where a large portion of the population has a checkered marital history, as well as the culture I know best. Such histories exist among many people, and in many places, where people do likewise — marry young, things go wrong, divorce, marry again, that one didn’t work out either, people marry a “Chex Mix” of other people who have similarly checkered marital histories. Many if not most Catholics who have gotten caught up in this cultural whirlpool, have married outside the Church. Therefore the Church doesn’t see them as married at all. The Catholic Church recognizes all otherwise valid marriages among non-Catholics as being valid unless proven otherwise. It is an impossibly “hot mess” than I imagine sends many a tribunal worker running for the Excedrin.HomeschoolDad:
Southern non-Catholics. You don’t see where that’s narrowing it down to a specific demographic?
Keep in mind, too, that if a Catholic wishes to marry a non-Catholic with this sort of marital history, the non-Catholic has to file for a declaration of nullity too, and the tribunal has to go back and look at each one of their marriages — first, second, third, what have you — and determine that each one of those marriages was invalid. If, let’s say, the non-Catholic’s marriage #2 was valid, end of story, no annulment, the Catholic cannot validly marry that person, and either has to walk away from the relationship, or attempt marriage invalidly outside the Church. The Church obviously does not condone the latter, and the Catholic has cut themselves off from the sacraments, possibly for life.
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HomeschoolDad:
Well, I was married in a Catholic church…so ya, I have an idea of what goes into it.I understand they “cannot”…but is there a website that indicates this does not happen?Just because one isn’t supposed to do something doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. I know that my (now Lutheran) SIL had to go through some sort of “pre wedding” preparation for her wedding (which was Lutheran)…
I meant “cannot validly marry”. Of course Catholics do this kind of thing, but those marriages aren’t sacramentally valid, and the Church does not consider them as married at all. (It’s also pretty bat-crazy even from a secular legal standpoint — what if a Catholic runs off and does this, contracts a legally valid marriage, with all the rights and obligations that go with that, then in years to come realizes their error, can’t get the marriage convalidated, and wants out?) This even applies to those who are baptized Catholics as infants, yet something goes wrong and they are never catechized, never make their First Communion, never confirmed, and might not even realize that they are Catholics. Children can’t help it, if for instance, their parents are divorced, the non-Catholic parent gets full custody, marries another non-Catholic, and doesn’t raise them even with a hint of the Catholic religion. Yet they remain Catholic and bound to canonical form for any marriage they might enter into. Again, Excedrin time for the tribunalists. Or as I said, separating spaghetti from sauce. If Pope Francis thinks the thing to do, is to “make a mess” — as he himself said — he need look no further than his own marriage tribunals.
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0Scarlett_nidiyilii
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Really, it’s perfectly okay to say “I won’t be able to attend.”
In the olden day’s, that’s all you needed to say. End of story.
But with the idea of everybody having to “let it all hang out”, people felt emboldened to pry into the reasons for another person’s refusal.
In the olden day’s, that’s all you needed to say. End of story.
But with the idea of everybody having to “let it all hang out”, people felt emboldened to pry into the reasons for another person’s refusal.
These are good examples. You’re a sharp guy.
I don’t think there is a problem with any of these. In none of the examples are you being asked to approve of what is being done.
- An anniversary party does not have the same level of “approving of the marriage” that going to a wedding does. (And I know the objection could also be raised that “maybe it’s a Josephite (or near-Josephite) marriage” — only in Catholic circles would anyone make such a comment, but it is a potential objection.)
- Child care is morally neutral — it is not as though refusal to care for the kids is going to stop Dave from getting his vasectomy, they’ll just find someone else to do it.
- Buying a gift for “gay Dave” (who is presumably a different Dave from the previous example) is not necessarily condoning his “marriage” — see my comments above about the “housewarming gift or whatever else you want to call it”.
- And you’re not going to prevent Suzy from fornicating if you refuse to cover for her — the boss will get someone else, and you might lose your own job for refusing to do what you’re told, nothing is gained from it.
And Jesus answered him: The first commandment of all is, Hear, O Israel: the Lord thy God is one God. And thou shalt love the Lord thy God, with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind, and with thy whole strength. This is the first commandment. And the second is like to it: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is no other commandment greater than these. — Mark 12:29-31 (DRV)Lara:
Again, can you show me that from the Catechism or another official doctrinal source? The phrase “hate the sin” does not appear one time in the Catechism. The phrase actually comes from Gandni’s autobiography written in 1929. It is a reworking of a line from Agustine, however, The Angelic Doctor’s writings are not infallible.
Hatred of sin is so universally understood among faithful Catholics, that it would be nonsensical to try and summon up a specific source that says this. Put another way, where in any catechism does it say not to hate sin?
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TC3033
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OK, that’s opposite of what you said. You said “doesn’t happen”
I don’t disagree, but I’m not sure what this has to do with the OP or the statement about all of the issues non-Catholics carry to the alter in their non-Catholic wedding.
Again, I’m not sure what this post has to do with what you insinuated about non-Catholic weddings.
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Irishmom2
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Are you putting this out there as a serious option?
Right.HomeschoolDad:
Are you putting this out there as a serious option?
I would have a real problem refusing to hire gays.
Gays already get fired from their jobs all the time just for being gay (in the U.S., depending on the state) and I wouldn’t want to add to that.
You wouldn’t be that professor who rode me ragged in one of my graduate seminars about refining my writing style, would you?HomeschoolDad:
OK, that’s opposite of what you said. You said “doesn’t happen”
When I said “doesn’t happen”, I was referring to finding a Catholic priest who would perform a valid marriage. I will concede that I inadvertently went on to conflate that with the Catholic in question then going to some justice of the peace, or “Marryin’ Sam” preacher, in some “Gretna Green” elopement haven, and contracting an invalid marriage. My meaning should have been clear even if I failed to express it with Chesterbelloc clarity. Much more of this, and I’m going to need to get some of that Excedrin myself.
I think at this point, you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree. I accept the traditional, orthodox Catholic view of valid versus invalid marriages, and my comments reflect that. Evidently you do not.
For those who would be willing to go to this extreme, yes. I’ve heard of people doing things like this. I know there are various sentiments about the SSPX on this forum, but pretty much everyone who moves to St Marys, Kansas, has this kind of mindset.HomeschoolDad:
Are you putting this out there as a serious option?
There are more businesses than you can shake a stick at, where the only employees are family members or close, trusted friends or relatives. Indian Americans do this all the time, and they are phenomenally successful entrepreneurs. A Catholic who doesn’t want to deal with gay coworkers could well follow suit.
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TC3033
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No you go off and make a comment, are challenged on it, (like stating all non-Catholic weddings are questionable or Catholics won’t do something) and then need to extrapolate and backpedal out of it while trying to change the subject or make some sort of quip.
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TC3033
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Kinda sounds like it.
I never said that.
Sloppy wording on my part. I believe I clarified this.
I mentioned St Marys, Kansas (the name of the town itself doesn’t have the apostrophe, for some reason the Postal Service doesn’t like apostrophes, viz. Harpers Ferry, West Virginia or Sullivans Island, South Carolina) but I failed to mention Ave Maria, Florida. That might be another option. I don’t have any numbers on how many non-Catholics have taken up residence there, but I have to question whether non-Catholics, in seeking a town to settle down in, look at Ave Maria and say “well, we’re not Catholic, but that sounds like a really great place to live, when do we start packing?”. I have to think you might be able to pull it off, to a mitigated extent, in Front Royal, Virginia, if you had some connection to Christendom College. There may be others.Irishmom2:
Kinda sounds like it.
The most extreme example of this desire to self-isolate, to live in a “bubble” where one’s faith will never be challenged, I can possibly think of would be Kiryas Joel, New York. Nobody in their right mind, who wasn’t an ultra-Orthodox Jew, would even think of moving there. If you are of that faith, though, it might be very nice.
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mdgspencer
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It is possible, unfortunately, that this is your situation:
Matthew 10:34-39:
34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35 For I have come to set a man against his father,
and a daughter against her mother,
and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
36 and one’s foes will be members of one’s own household.
37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and whoever does not take up the cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Those who find their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it.
Matthew 10:34-39:
34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35 For I have come to set a man against his father,
and a daughter against her mother,
and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
36 and one’s foes will be members of one’s own household.
37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and whoever does not take up the cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Those who find their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it.
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TC3033
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You may want to go back and look at post, I believe 67, where I quoted and bolded where you pointed out the “motley past couples bring to the alter”, saying especially those of a certain age… That insues that you have an issue with non-Catholic weddings, in general.
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