How to respond to jewish criticisms

[InJesusItrust]

I would agree that, if you start with the New Testament, then you can find echoes of all sorts in the Tanakh (Old Testament to you), that’s inevitable, it was constructed that way and that’s where Christian/Jewish dialogue tends to break down - irresistible force, immovable object.

Either you believe that the New Testament is ‘reportage’ and a ‘Sacred Text’ or you don’t. You do, I don’t. For a couple of thousand years, the argument has gone on and it goes nowhere.

The consistency between the two cannot be reasonably compared to Muslim or Mormon scripture through. There is a lot of internal consistency for a reasonable man to deny–that is why I think it is either a cunning conspiracy or an act of God. You cannot accidentally put this kind of internal consistency.

 

[Kaninchen]

The consistency between the two cannot be reasonably compared to Muslim or Mormon scripture through. There is a lot of internal consistency for a reasonable man to deny–that is why I think it is either a cunning conspiracy or an act of God. You cannot accidentally put this kind of internal consistency.

Again, that’s a matter of perspective and I don’t have to accept your premises here, partly because it rather assumes that Judaism and Christianity have similarities that they don’t have - Christianity isn’t Judaism+Jesus and Judaism isn’t Christianity-Jesus, the two religions don’t ‘work’ in the same way at all. In other words, there are inconsistencies that may well be invisible to you because they’re hidden by your ‘paradigms’.

I’m not a reasonable man, at all, by the way.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Sites like the one in the OP exist not to convert Christians but to help people deal with Christian missionaries who quote ‘proof texts’ at them (as people may have noticed, I prefer the “we don’t believe a word of it, at all” approach ).

The site given by the OP seems to go beyond “If they proof text you, here’s a response.” It teaches misrepresentations of Christian theology, similar to many Muslim websites I have come across. Such misrepresentations do not serve Judeo-Christian dialogue, and I pity for Jews who come across this site and then go to Christians telling them they worship “three beings.”

 

[chosen_people]

The site given by the OP seems to go beyond “If they proof text you, here’s a response.” It teaches misrepresentations of Christian theology, similar to many Muslim websites I have come across. Such misrepresentations do not serve Judeo-Christian dialogue, and I pity for Jews who come across this site and then go to Christians telling them they worship “three beings.”

I for one can understand your shock and dismay in finding out that Jews don’t believe in Christianity.

 

[meltzerboy]

The site given by the OP seems to go beyond “If they proof text you, here’s a response.” It teaches misrepresentations of Christian theology, similar to many Muslim websites I have come across. Such misrepresentations do not serve Judeo-Christian dialogue, and I pity for Jews who come across this site and then go to Christians telling them they worship “three beings.”

Many Jews have a poor understanding of the Trinity; in fact, many Christians are not too informed either, in my experience. Of course, it is an exceptionally difficult topic to grasp even partially since most, if not all, analogies do not fully explain it without lapsing into one form of heresy or another.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

I for one can understand your shock and dismay in finding out that Jews don’t believe in Christianity.

It’s not so much that they don’t believe in Christianity, it’s that the site quoted in the OP says “They believe x” when in reality they believe y.

Many Jews have a poor understanding of the Trinity; in fact, many Christians are not too informed either, in my experience. Of course, it is an exceptionally difficult topic to grasp even partially since most, if not all, analogies do not fully explain it without lapsing into one form of heresy or another.

Absolutely true. It’s one reason why I tell Christians not to use analogies for the Trinity - every single one, when carried through to its rational conclusion - falls into either the camp of Modalism or Tritheism.

 

[AbideWithMe]

The site given by the OP seems to go beyond “If they proof text you, here’s a response.” It teaches misrepresentations of Christian theology, similar to many Muslim websites I have come across. Such misrepresentations do not serve Judeo-Christian dialogue, and I pity for Jews who come across this site and then go to Christians telling them they worship “three beings.”

Yes. It’s best, I believe, to learn about a religion from those who actually practice it.

We Christians, in reverse, often misunderstand and misrepresent Judaism in the midst of apologetics efforts, as well.

I think there can a tendency for apologists of any faith, when they study another religion, to study with the intent to find out what’s wrong with that religion. And so, they find what they are looking for—all the things that seem wrong to them. They may never see all the good. And also, of course, even if one studies another religion just for the sake of greater understanding, it’s very difficult to grasp all the nuances that effect real-life meanings.

 

[AbideWithMe]

In other words, there are inconsistencies that may well be invisible to you because they’re hidden by your ‘paradigms’.

Yes, I think I know what you mean. Having done quite a lot of reading of things from the perspective of a practitioner of Judaism (though I’m not one myself), it seems impossible for me to “undo” my partial ability to almost simultaneously view things from both perspectives.

It’s not very comfortable. It’s human nature to seek clarity, and hearing/reading interpretations of the Tanakh/OT from the perspective of Judaism made the writings clearer and more coherent than any Christian–Catholic or Protestant-- interpretation I’ve read. Yet, I have firm reasons for being a Christian. So I live with the ambiguity.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I prefer to rely solely on the ressurection, more often than not jews will not admit that had Christ been risen in the manner of the righteous described in Daniel, that this would be God vindicating him.

 

[anika001]

WE are the temple, His holy church on earth. More fundamentally, we are the temple because he is the temple, where “all the fullness of deity” dwells.

 

[chosen_people]

These come from a Jewish website

"What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: “Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore.” (Isaiah 2:4)

D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: “God will be King over all the world—on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One” (Zechariah 14:9).

The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists."

"3) MISTRANSLATED VERSES “REFERRING” TO JESUS
(back)

Biblical verses can only be understood by studying the original Hebrew text—which reveals many discrepancies in the Christian translation.

A. VIRGIN BIRTH
The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an “alma” as giving birth. The word “alma” has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as “virgin.” This accords Jesus’ birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

B. CRUCIFIXION
The verse in Psalms 22:17 reads: “Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet.” The Hebrew word ki-ari (like a lion) is grammatically similar to the word “gouged.” Thus Christianity reads the verse as a reference to crucifixion: “They pierced my hands and feet.”

C. SUFFERING SERVANT
Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the “suffering servant.”

In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews (“Israel”) are regarded as one unit. The Torah is filled with examples of the Jewish nation referred to with a singular pronoun.

Ironically, Isaiah’s prophecies of persecution refer in part to the 11th century when Jews were tortured and killed by Crusaders who acted in the name of Jesus.

From where did these mistranslations stem? St. Gregory, 4th century Bishop of Nazianzus, wrote: “A little jargon is all that is necessary to impose on the people. The less they comprehend, the more they admire.”
For further reading on the “suffering servant”:
jewsforjudaism.org/ss"

What would be the Catholic response to these arguments.

It is a misnomer to speak of “Jewish criticisms”. Judaism holds that it is easier for the Gentile than for the Jew to get into the World to Come as they have only to follow the seven Noahide commandments, that redemption is open to all and that we are all God’s children. There is therefore no need or want on the part of Jews to try and convince Christians that they are wrong in their beliefs and should adopt ours.

On the other hand, according to Judaism, a Jew who breaks his/her eternal covenant between God and the Jewish people and converts is cut off forever from God and the Jewish people.

The goal of websites like “Jews for Judaism” is to counter missionary activity among Jews.

The two reasons to detail for non-Jews our beliefs is to answer questions by non-Jews about why we do not accept their beliefs or to counter accusations against Jews (such as the Jews killed Jesus) or misconceptions (“the Jews of today are not the Jews of the exodus” or “Jews stop being Jews with the destruction of the second Temple”).

If you want to respond to “Jewish criticisms”(sic!) you should first learn what they are. I believe a good place to start would be with the book “Twenty-six reasons why Jews don’t believe in Jesus” by Asher Norman.

 

[CopticChristian]

These come from a Jewish website

"What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: “Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore.” (Isaiah 2:4)

D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: “God will be King over all the world—on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One” (Zechariah 14:9).

The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists."

"3) MISTRANSLATED VERSES “REFERRING” TO JESUS
(back)

Biblical verses can only be understood by studying the original Hebrew text—which reveals many discrepancies in the Christian translation.

A. VIRGIN BIRTH
The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an “alma” as giving birth. The word “alma” has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as “virgin.” This accords Jesus’ birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

B. CRUCIFIXION
The verse in Psalms 22:17 reads: “Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet.” The Hebrew word ki-ari (like a lion) is grammatically similar to the word “gouged.” Thus Christianity reads the verse as a reference to crucifixion: “They pierced my hands and feet.”

C. SUFFERING SERVANT
Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the “suffering servant.”

In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews (“Israel”) are regarded as one unit. The Torah is filled with examples of the Jewish nation referred to with a singular pronoun.

Ironically, Isaiah’s prophecies of persecution refer in part to the 11th century when Jews were tortured and killed by Crusaders who acted in the name of Jesus.

From where did these mistranslations stem? St. Gregory, 4th century Bishop of Nazianzus, wrote: “A little jargon is all that is necessary to impose on the people. The less they comprehend, the more they admire.”
For further reading on the “suffering servant”:
jewsforjudaism.org/ss"

What would be the Catholic response to these arguments.

Rock,

The simplest thing is to accept and understand that this is Rabbinical Judaism that is not the Judaism of the Old Testament…

There is no Temple
There is no Levitical Priesthood
There are no animal Sacrifices

and if we are to believe that Christianity was spawned from Judaism…then most of the Jews that did not accept this notion of Christianity did have offspring…Samaritans of Old exist today but no Old Testament Jews that have a temple with Pharisees, Saducees and Scribes with a Sanhedrin…

These offspring are not the Jews of the Old Testament as outlined and the best you can say is

This is the opinion of Rabinnical Judaism that is a mix of many different beliefs that include Liberal, Conservative, Orthodox and as there are no present day Sanhedrin and the like it is respected for what it is.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Yes. It’s best, I believe, to learn about a religion from those who actually practice it.

We Christians, in reverse, often misunderstand and misrepresent Judaism in the midst of apologetics efforts, as well.

I think there can a tendency for apologists of any faith, when they study another religion, to study with the intent to find out what’s wrong with that religion. And so, they find what they are looking for—all the things that seem wrong to them. They may never see all the good. And also, of course, even if one studies another religion just for the sake of greater understanding, it’s very difficult to grasp all the nuances that effect real-life meanings.

All very true.

 

[tomarin]

I would agree that, if you start with the New Testament, then you can find echoes of all sorts in the Tanakh (Old Testament to you), that’s inevitable, it was constructed that way and that’s where Christian/Jewish dialogue tends to break down - irresistible force, immovable object.

Either you believe that the New Testament is ‘reportage’ and a ‘Sacred Text’ or you don’t. You do, I don’t. For a couple of thousand years, the argument has gone on and it goes nowhere.

You could say there’s an irreconcilable gulf on some core issues between the two religions.

 

[tomarin]

It is a misnomer to speak of “Jewish criticisms”. Judaism holds that it is easier for the Gentile than for the Jew to get into the World to Come as they have only to follow the seven Noahide commandments, that redemption is open to all and that we are all God’s children. There is therefore no need or want on the part of Jews to try and convince Christians that they are wrong in their beliefs and should adopt ours.

Do Jews believe generally speaking that Christians are monotheists?

 

[CopticChristian]

Yes. It’s best, I believe, to learn about a religion from those who actually practice it.

We Christians, in reverse, often misunderstand and misrepresent Judaism in the midst of apologetics efforts, as well.

I think there can a tendency for apologists of any faith, when they study another religion, to study with the intent to find out what’s wrong with that religion. And so, they find what they are looking for—all the things that seem wrong to them. They may never see all the good. And also, of course, even if one studies another religion just for the sake of greater understanding, it’s very difficult to grasp all the nuances that effect real-life meanings.

Abide,

I cannot accept that there is much to learn about Religion. The Catechism states that what we are to know is based on Divine Revelation…

In many and various ways God spoke to us in part through His prophets and in these last day through His Son. I am taught, and I believe that all that God wants us to know is summed in one word…Jesus…do you deny this?

You cannot speak for all apologists. Apologists come to defense through various means. Do you believe that someone becomes a rank and file apologist by designation…“when I grow up I will be an Apologist”?

Many take a sojourn away from the Faith and return and I don’t know what the journey was however I would say that as an apologist I don’t believe that this journey was necessarily with intent. I am an amateur apologist at best and I can say it was never my intent to defend the Faith…I was attacked by Protestants wanting me to “come to Christ” insulting my beliefs, causing me to dig deeply wthin what I believed and what they said was false and what they believed to be true and in searching discovered they were off their rocker…I looked for what was true not what was wrong.

What is good? Good rabbi…why do you call me good? God alone is good and if God alone is good then only the truth that comes from God is true…do you deny that?

What nuances would you consider effect real life meaning that the fullness of truth is lacking?

 

[CopticChristian]

Yes, I think I know what you mean. Having done quite a lot of reading of things from the perspective of a practitioner of Judaism (though I’m not one myself), it seems impossible for me to “undo” my partial ability to almost simultaneously view things from both perspectives.
**
It’s not very comfortable. It’s human nature to seek clarity,** and hearing/reading interpretations of the Tanakh/OT from the perspective of Judaism made the writings clearer and more coherent than any Christian–Catholic or Protestant-- interpretation I’ve read. Yet, I have firm reasons for being a Christian. So I live with the ambiguity.

Abide,

Stop seeking clarity…keep seeking the truth…

 

[chosen_people]

Do Jews believe generally speaking that Christians are monotheists?

Yes, subject of course to the different definition and concept not only of God but also to the different concept and definition of monotheism.

While Judaism challenged and debated within itself in forming the concept of monotheism (e.g.Satan in the story of Job) the final accepted concept of monotheism in Judaism is quite clear. This definition precludes and in some ways is antithetical to concepts in Christianity.

In the realm of the Jewish God there are no independent self willed entities, certainly no powerful entity in battle with God. An angel sent by God (including Satan) is merely a messenger carrying out the will of God.

In the realm of earth, no human being can ever be perfect or venerated above other human beings, no matter how close they are to God. In the Jewish scriptures every figure is presented complete with all their imperfections. It is not by chance that the burial place of Moses is unknown.

 

[CopticChristian]

Yes, subject of course to the **different definition and concept not only of God but also to the different concept and definition of monotheism.**While Judaism challenged and debated within itself in forming the concept of monotheism (e.g.Satan in the story of Job) the final accepted concept of monotheism in Judaism is quite clear. This definition precludes and in some ways is antithetical to concepts in Christianity.

In the realm of the Jewish God there are no independent self willed entities, certainly no powerful entity in battle with God. An angel sent by God (including Satan) is merely a messenger carrying out the will of God.

In the realm of earth, no human being can ever be perfect or venerated above other human beings, no matter how close they are to God. In the Jewish scriptures every figure is presented complete with all their imperfections. It is not by chance that the burial place of Moses is unknown.

Chosen,

Explain what the different definitions and concepts of God might be.

Explain what the different concepts and defintions of monotheism might be.

What is it you imply that the burial place of Moses in unknown and how does that apply to Chrisianit as it concerns the burial place of Christ?

 

[tomarin]

Yes, subject of course to the different definition and concept not only of God but also to the different concept and definition of monotheism.

While Judaism challenged and debated within itself in forming the concept of monotheism (e.g.Satan in the story of Job) the final accepted concept of monotheism in Judaism is quite clear. This definition precludes and in some ways is antithetical to concepts in Christianity.

In the realm of the Jewish God there are no independent self willed entities, certainly no powerful entity in battle with God. An angel sent by God (including Satan) is merely a messenger carrying out the will of God.

In the realm of earth, no human being can ever be perfect or venerated above other human beings, no matter how close they are to God. In the Jewish scriptures every figure is presented complete with all their imperfections. It is not by chance that the burial place of Moses is unknown.

Thank you.