How to respond to jewish criticisms

[brumano]

It’s a matter of perspective and there’s no point in us rowing about it because we start with different paradigms. Most of what Jesus ‘says’ in the NT is, from a Jewish perspective, just par for the course ‘rowing rabbi’ stuff: “on the one hand, while on the other hand, meanwhile on the other hand” (the Talmud has lots of this sort of thing), very little of which was ‘new’ in any sense. What is different is the interpretation of what’s being said, the interpretation being from the perspective of people who believed he was Messiah etc.

So, don’t bother trying this “either you believe they were right or they were wicked” approach because you’re talking to somebody who thinks they were just ‘wrong’.

Really? How did He manage to make such a clash, what did he do to deserve to be taken out by His own people and handed over to “sinners” and be crucified? Is it run of the mill Rabbinic rowing to say to another man Your sins are forgiven? Or, I (I) AM The Way and the Truth and The Life? Or, when you pray pray Our Father…!? Or, he who believes in me though he die yet shall he live and he who believes in me he shall never die he shall live forever? Do I need go on? If all of this was just so passe, who are the other Rabbis who are believed by millions upon millions upon millions over century after century to have risen from the dead?

 

[Kaninchen]

Really? How did He manage to make such a clash, what did he do to deserve to be taken out by His own people and handed over to “sinners” and be crucified?

Allegedly.

Is it run of the mill Rabbinic rowing to say to another man Your sins are forgiven? Or, I (I) AM The Way and the Truth and The Life? Or, when you pray pray Our Father…!? Or, he who believes in me though he die yet shall he live and he who believes in me he shall never die he shall live forever? Do I need go on?

Ah, you missed the word ‘most’.

If all of this was just so passe, who are the other Rabbis who are believed by millions upon millions upon millions over century after century to have risen from the dead?

I didn’t say ‘passé’.

 

[Anna_Scott]

These come from a Jewish website

"What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

. . . .

Irock104,

I know I will probably be criticized for saying this; but I haven’t seen any convincing answers to the Jewish objections you posted.

I’ve read a number of Jewish sources on their objections, and still cannot answer many of them.

As Christians we start with Christ as Messiah, and look backwards to the Old Testament for proof of fulfilled prophesies.

The Jews start with the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) and measure claims regarding the Messiah against them.

Isaiah 45:5-6:
“I am the Lord, and there is no other; besides me there is no god. I arm you, though you do not know me, 6 so that they may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is no one besides me; I am the Lord, and there is no other”

Part of The Shema: 4 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Deuteronomy 6:4

Spoken by Jesus, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." **Mark 12:29

Numbers 23:**
19 God is not man, that he should lie,
or a son of man, that he should change his mind.
Has he said, and will he not do it?
Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

If you were a Jew, living at the time of Christ; and you worshiped the God who said He is one, apart from him there is no god; the same God the Hebrew Scriptures say is not a man or a son of man----don’t you think it might be difficult to accept a man, calling Himself the Son of Man, as God? Wouldn’t it be difficult to offer sacrifices to God in the Temple and then bump into Jesus who also claimed to be God? I can see how Jesus would at least appear to be one too many Gods.

Anna

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

If you were a Jew, living at the time of Christ; and you worshiped the God who said He is one, apart from him there is no god; the same God the Hebrew Scriptures say is not a man or a son of man----don’t you think it might be difficult to accept a man, calling Himself the Son of Man, as God? Wouldn’t it be difficult to offer sacrifices to God in the Temple and then bump into Jesus who also claimed to be God? I can see how Jesus would at least appear to be one too many Gods.

For many in Christ’s time, it was difficult. For many today, it’s certainly difficult. Without the Spirit of God, it would be impossible for anyone. Thanks be to God that salvation begins with Him and not with our own human reasoning.

 

[CopticChristian]

For many in Christ’s time, it was difficult. For many today, it’s certainly difficult. Without the Spirit of God, it would be impossible for anyone. Thanks be to God that salvation begins with Him and not with our own human reasoning.

Byzantine,

How is it then that you consider yourself to be the elect if not by reason. Salvation begins with God choosing you as the elect meant for heaven, what does the Spirit of God have to do with it? Is the spirit that causes your reason to awaken to the untidy notion that God has selected you apart from anyone else to be the elect meant for heaven while others are condemned?

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

How is it then that you consider yourself to be the elect if not by reason.

I’m afraid you completely misunderstood the point of what I wrote.

 

[Anna_Scott]

For many in Christ’s time, it was difficult. For many today, it’s certainly difficult. Without the Spirit of God, it would be impossible for anyone. Thanks be to God that salvation begins with Him and not with our own human reasoning.

Mr. Wolf,

Regardless. . . . .this is not really an answer that would be acceptable in a discussion with those of the Jewish faith. One could claim anything contrary to their beliefs, and tell them they don’t understand, because God has not opened their eyes to truth. The Jews could say the same about Christians.

Anna

 

[brumano]

Allegedly.

Sure anyone can always say about anything, that it is alleged, but I’ll give you something that is hard cold fact, if that tomb would have held His body the people who crucified Him would have been quick to point to it, even His own disciples would have given up, and that would have been the end of the whole thing. Very fortunately for us that was only the beginning.

Ah, you missed the word ‘most’.

In so many words i believe you did, what you were really trying to imagine here is that Jesus the Rabbi doesn’t say or mean anything that is in fullfillment of the Rabbinical Tradition which was chiseled out long before in the written and the spoken word; a passage from Exodus jumps to mind: “And you shall teach the story of your going out from Egypt to your children and they shall teach it to their children for all generations forever”. You think however that people who heard His teaching just began on their own somehow, to interpret ordinary traditional teaching into a new and earthshaking way. You do have one point here, the dynamic of the person of Jesus was moving, because of who He really is, and what He really spoke, such that if you or I spoke the same thing we would have been laughed out, not stoned out, of the synagogue.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Mr. Wolf,

Regardless. . . . .this is not really an answer that would be acceptable in a discussion with those of the Jewish faith. One could claim anything contrary to their beliefs, and tell them they don’t understand, because God has not opened their eyes to truth. The Jews could say the same about Christians.

Anna

That’s not to be denied. I’ve spoken to many Jews, and they’ve given me their objections to Christ. It’s a bit like Muslims, amazingly enough. Sometimes, it’s because they follow wild conspiracy theories about Christianity that they’ve read online (Constantine invented Christ’s deity, the Bible was created at Nicaea, etc.). Other times, it’s because they’re following false assumptions about Christianity (as seen in the OP). Other times still, it’s because of that word Tavye told us about: “Tradition.”

When we give responses, of course it will be insufficient without the work of God, who removes the veil over their heart (2 Co 3:15). Our role is to be used by God to spread the seed, and God will cause the growth upon the soil (cf. Mt 13:1-9; 1 Co 3:6-7). That’s why we don’t rely on human methods of argumentation, but on God’s truth and His power.

 

[Snowball7]

Christian author Michael Brown (Jewish by birth)
has written an excellent series of books on this subject…

by the way, did you know about God refusing the Jewish
sacrifices from death of Christ in 30 AD until they ceased
at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD ? Amazing,
and it’s right in the Jerusalem (and Babylonian) Talmuds.

aaronscopeland.com/bible_articles/history/bible_history_talmud.html
shatteredparadigm.blogspot.com/2008/12/extraordinary-extrabiblical-evidence.html
hissheep.org/special/hebrew/ancient_temple_signs_and_the_last_days.html

 

[Anna_Scott]

That’s not to be denied. I’ve spoken to many Jews, and they’ve given me their objections to Christ. It’s a bit like Muslims, amazingly enough. Sometimes, it’s because they follow wild conspiracy theories about Christianity that they’ve read online (Constantine invented Christ’s deity, the Bible was created at Nicaea, etc.). Other times, it’s because they’re following false assumptions about Christianity (as seen in the OP). Other times still, it’s because of that word Tavye told us about: “Tradition.”

When we give responses, of course it will be insufficient without the work of God, who removes the veil over their heart (2 Co 3:15). Our role is to be used by God to spread the seed, and God will cause the growth upon the soil (cf. Mt 13:1-9; 1 Co 3:6-7). That’s why we don’t rely on human methods of argumentation, but on God’s truth and His power.

Well, Mr. Wolf (and You know I love, ya :hug3: )

What do you propose?

Do we just stop answering questions?

Do we stop explaining the way in which Christ fulfilled Prophesy?

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Christian author Michael Brown (Jewish by birth)
has written an excellent series of books on this subject…

by the way, did you know about God refusing the Jewish
sacrifices from death of Christ in 30 AD until they ceased
at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD ? Amazing,
and it’s right in the Jerusalem (and Babylonian) Talmuds.

aaronscopeland.com/bible_articles/history/bible_history_talmud.html
shatteredparadigm.blogspot.com/2008/12/extraordinary-extrabiblical-evidence.html
hissheep.org/special/hebrew/ancient_temple_signs_and_the_last_days.html

Snowball7,
These look very interesting. It’ll take some time to get through them. I’m really tired at this point in the day (so sad.) Thanks for posting them.

Anna

 

[CopticChristian]

That’s not to be denied. I’ve spoken to many Jews, and they’ve given me their objections to Christ. It’s a bit like Muslims, amazingly enough. Sometimes, it’s because they follow wild conspiracy theories about Christianity that they’ve read online (Constantine invented Christ’s deity, the Bible was created at Nicaea, etc.). Other times, it’s because they’re following false assumptions about Christianity (as seen in the OP). Other times still, it’s because of that word Tavye told us about: “Tradition.”

When we give responses, of course it will be insufficient without the work of God, who removes the veil over their heart (2 Co 3:15). Our role is to be used by God to spread the seed, and God will cause the growth upon the soil (cf. Mt 13:1-9; 1 Co 3:6-7). That’s why we don’t rely on human methods of argumentation, but on God’s truth and His power.

Byzantine,

This is fascinating…since I also encounter wild conspiracies…share with me how you explain that the Bible was not created at Nicea…

 

[Anna_Scott]

For many in Christ’s time, it was difficult. For many today, it’s certainly difficult. Without the Spirit of God, it would be impossible for anyone. Thanks be to God that salvation begins with Him and not with our own human reasoning.

Mr. Wolf,

Just humor me a bit, if you will.

These are the passages I posted earlier plus a few more:

Isaiah 45:5-6:
"I am the Lord, and there is no other; besides me there is no god. I arm you, though you do not know me, 6 so that they may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is no one besides me; I am the Lord, and there is no other"

Part of The Shema: 4** “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Deuteronomy 6:4**

Spoken by Jesus, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." **Mark 12:29

Numbers 23:**
19 God is not man, that he should lie,
or a son of man, that he should change his mind.
Has he said, and will he not do it?
Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

Psalms 49:
5 Why should I fear in times of trouble,
when the iniquity of my persecutors surrounds me,
6 those who trust in their wealth
and boast of the abundance of their riches?
7 Truly, no ransom avails for one’s life,
there is no price one can give to God for it.
8 For the ransom of life is costly,
and can never suffice,
9 that one should live on forever
and never see the grave.

How do these passages fit together, considering God said he is not a man or a son of man, and the ransom of life is costly and can never suffice? How are these passages fulfilled in Christ? How do they fit with 1 Corinthians and similar passages?

1 Corinthians 15:
21** For just as death came by means of a man, in the same way the rising from death comes by means of a man.** 22 For just as all people die because of their union with Adam, in the same way all will be raised to life because of their union with Christ.

Keep in mind that I am a Christian. I would just like to know how to answer this.

Peace,
Anna

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

Can I take a stab, Anna?

Numbers 23:

19 God is not man, that he should lie,
or a son of man, that he should change his mind.
Has he said, and will he not do it?
Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

God here is not saying that He cannot become a man, as He eventually would. He’s comparing Himself to mortals, who change their minds and lie to onne another.

“I am not like men, who lie or sons of men, who change their mind. What I say, I will do and not change my mind about it.”

Psalms 49:
5 Why should I fear in times of trouble,
when the iniquity of my persecutors surrounds me,
6 those who trust in their wealth
and boast of the abundance of their riches?
7 Truly, no ransom avails for one’s life,
there is no price one can give to God for it.
8 For the ransom of life is costly,
and can never suffice,
9 that one should live on forever
and never see the grave.

The context here is money. Riches will not buy death from taking you, nor wealth can pay off your deeds, or ransom your crimes.

The Apostle Peter, on the other hand, may have this Psalm in mind when he says, “knowing that youwere ransomed fromthe futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold,butwith the precious blood of Christ (1 Pet 1:18-19).”

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Byzantine,

This is fascinating…since I also encounter wild conspiracies…share with me how you explain that the Bible was not created at Nicea…

Short answer: I ask them to quote me one section of Nicaea dealing with the Bible. There isn’t a single part of it, because the Bible wasn’t about Nicaea. There’s likewise no contemporary source (Athanasius, Jerome, Eusebius, etc.) that mentions the Bible being a matter of discussion at Nicaea. Arguing that Nicaea created the Bible is as erroneous as suggesting the Treaty of Tripoli invented the American Constitution.

Well, Mr. Wolf (and You know I love, ya :hug3: )

What do you propose?

Do we just stop answering questions?

Do we stop explaining the way in which Christ fulfilled Prophesy?

Of course not. You don’t take the role of “I give up on everybody.” You spread the seed, and whatever soil it lands upon, thus shall it grow. However, it does pay, both for the sake of time (and hence reaching others), as well as personal sanity, to be ready to recognize some “unteachable spirits,” as some may say. If someone is clearly showing they have no interest in what you’re saying and shows they aren’t ready to talk to you like an adult, then it might be best to give them the nitty gritty and move on. As Christ said, “Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs” (Mt 7:6a).

Mr. Wolf,

Just humor me a bit, if you will…

Gaelic Beard pretty much answered it the way I would. Numbers 23:19 is God saying “I am not a man” in the context that he doesn’t lie or change his mind like men, by their fallen nature, do - that’s clear right there in the text. Psalm 49, when one reads the whole thing, is speaking about wealth and the reliance upon it, and how a man with wealth is no different than a beast that perishes. If it were saying you can’t ransom or pay for people, then it would contradict other passages in scripture where a certain “value” was placed upon a person’s life. For example, a servant gorged by an ox was to be compensated for by thirty pieces of silver (Exo 21:32) - which, amazingly enough, was the price Judas got for handing Christ over to the Sanhedrin (Mt 26:15).

Regarding the claims of God being one, I think I provided answers for that in my first post in this thread. Again, it’s a matter of understanding the Trinity. If one has a presupposition of Unitarianism or Tritheism, those passages wouldn’t make any sense.

 

[CopticChristian]

Short answer: I ask them to quote me one section of Nicaea dealing with the Bible. There isn’t a single part of it, because the Bible wasn’t about Nicaea. There’s likewise no contemporary source (Athanasius, Jerome, Eusebius, etc.) that mentions the Bible being a matter of discussion at Nicaea. Arguing that Nicaea created the Bible is as erroneous as suggesting the Treaty of Tripoli invented the American Constitution.

Of course not. You don’t take the role of “I give up on everybody.” You spread the seed, and whatever soil it lands upon, thus shall it grow. However, it does pay, both for the sake of time (and hence reaching others), as well as personal sanity, to be ready to recognize some “unteachable spirits,” as some may say. If someone is clearly showing they have no interest in what you’re saying and shows they aren’t ready to talk to you like an adult, then it might be best to give them the nitty gritty and move on. As Christ said, “Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs” (Mt 7:6a).

Gaelic Beard pretty much answered it the way I would. Numbers 23:19 is God saying “I am not a man” in the context that he doesn’t lie or change his mind like men, by their fallen nature, do - that’s clear right there in the text. Psalm 49, when one reads the whole thing, is speaking about wealth and the reliance upon it, and how a man with wealth is no different than a beast that perishes. If it were saying you can’t ransom or pay for people, then it would contradict other passages in scripture where a certain “value” was placed upon a person’s life. For example, a servant gorged by an ox was to be compensated for by thirty pieces of silver (Exo 21:32) - which, amazingly enough, was the price Judas got for handing Christ over to the Sanhedrin (Mt 26:15).

Regarding the claims of God being one, I think I provided answers for that in my first post in this thread. Again, it’s a matter of understanding the Trinity. If one has a presupposition of Unitarianism or Tritheism, those passages wouldn’t make any sense.

Byzantine,

Ok. Then what do you say to fill the gap and make correction. In other words…

Hey guys, it isn’t about Nicea and Nicea has nothing to do with it…let me explain how we got the Bible…

What do you say?

 

[Anna_Scott]

Byzantine,

This is fascinating…since I also encounter wild conspiracies…share with me how you explain that the Bible was not created at Nicea…

Coptic,
Why the rabbit trails leading us farther from the thread topic, which is how to respond to Jewish criticisms?

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Can I take a stab, Anna?

God here is not saying that He cannot become a man, as He eventually would. He’s comparing Himself to mortals, who change their minds and lie to onne another.

“I am not like men, who lie or sons of men, who change their mind. What I say, I will do and not change my mind about it.”

The context here is money. Riches will not buy death from taking you, nor wealth can pay off your deeds, or ransom your crimes.

The Apostle Peter, on the other hand, may have this Psalm in mind when he says, “knowing that youwere ransomed fromthe futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold,butwith the precious blood of Christ (1 Pet 1:18-19).”

Short answer: I ask them to quote me one section of Nicaea dealing with the Bible. There isn’t a single part of it, because the Bible wasn’t about Nicaea. There’s likewise no contemporary source (Athanasius, Jerome, Eusebius, etc.) that mentions the Bible being a matter of discussion at Nicaea. Arguing that Nicaea created the Bible is as erroneous as suggesting the Treaty of Tripoli invented the American Constitution.

Of course not. You don’t take the role of “I give up on everybody.” You spread the seed, and whatever soil it lands upon, thus shall it grow. However, it does pay, both for the sake of time (and hence reaching others), as well as personal sanity, to be ready to recognize some “unteachable spirits,” as some may say. If someone is clearly showing they have no interest in what you’re saying and shows they aren’t ready to talk to you like an adult, then it might be best to give them the nitty gritty and move on. As Christ said, “Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs” (Mt 7:6a).

Gaelic Beard pretty much answered it the way I would. Numbers 23:19 is God saying “I am not a man” in the context that he doesn’t lie or change his mind like men, by their fallen nature, do - that’s clear right there in the text. Psalm 49, when one reads the whole thing, is speaking about wealth and the reliance upon it, and how a man with wealth is no different than a beast that perishes. If it were saying you can’t ransom or pay for people, then it would contradict other passages in scripture where a certain “value” was placed upon a person’s life. For example, a servant gorged by an ox was to be compensated for by thirty pieces of silver (Exo 21:32) - which, amazingly enough, was the price Judas got for handing Christ over to the Sanhedrin (Mt 26:15).

Regarding the claims of God being one, I think I provided answers for that in my first post in this thread. Again, it’s a matter of understanding the Trinity. If one has a presupposition of Unitarianism or Tritheism, those passages wouldn’t make any sense.

Both excellent answers. I had some Jewish commentaries to post, but am not feeling well today. Hopefully soon.

Thanks, Gaelic Bard & Mr. Wolf!

Hoping Coptic will return to thread topic. Also hoping for more comments from Jewish forum members.

Peace and blessings,
Anna

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Both excellent answers. I had some Jewish commentaries to post, but am not feeling well today. Hopefully soon.

Looking forward to it.