H
HungerNThirst4R
Guest
The Holy Spirit cant be wrong, that’s how I’d answer them.
- Status
P
Padres1969
Guest
Exactly.
FSSP - full communion with Rome
FSSPX (sometimes called SSPX) - not full communion, but not heretical
SSPV - sedevacantists
L
Lormar
Guest
No offense meant to you, but I can only imagine how they would answer that retort. Your head would be reeling.
Best to pray for them unless you are sufficiently prepared to meet them head on.
C
corsair
Guest
Except in the Diocese of Buenas Aries, Argentina. ( sorry for the spelling).
No they are not sedevacantist. I am amazed at the variety of understanding about the SSPX and the FSSP.
Couldn’t resist commenting. (I’m FSSP oriented)
O
OraLabora
Guest
- Don’t take the bait. It will lead to no good and perhaps loss of friendship. If you must, listen, say “that’s interesting”, and move on.
- Continue to practice your faith quietly but obviously.
- Pray.
D
dmar198
Guest
I recommend a few resources:
One of them is Dave Armstrong’s page on “Radical Catholic Reactionaries.”
Radical Catholic Reactionaries (Index Page)
patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2006/11/traditional-catholic-quasi.html
It’s got hundreds of links to resources that are useful for responding to SSPX people and sedevacantists, with good info for how to bring them into full communion with the Church.
If I may be so bold as to self-promote, I’ve written eight articles that I think are also helpful:
Ten Objections to the New Mass: Answered
historyandapologetics.com/2015/02/9-objections-to-new-mass-answered.html
List of Arguments Against Sedevacantism
historyandapologetics.com/2015/02/list-of-arguments-against-sedevacantism.html
Invincible Ignorance: Backed Up by Church History
historyandapologetics.com/2015/02/scripture-church-fathers-and-medieval.html
Religious Liberty: Backed Up by Church History
historyandapologetics.com/2015/02/church-fathers-and-medieval-doctors-on.html
Baptism of Desire: Backed Up by Church History
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=12319161
Death Penalty Limitations in Ancient and Modern Catholic Teaching
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=12486685
**Pope Francis Is No Liberal: 24 Examples **
historyandapologetics.com/2015/02/pope-francis-is-no-liberal-24-examples.html
Five Ways Vatican 2 Condemned Modernism
historyandapologetics.com/2015/02/five-ways-vatican-2-condemned-modernism.html
One way to use the above articles is this: when you come across an SSPX person or a sedevacantist, try to remember one of the arguments on the above pages (including the Dave Armstrong page), and tell them that argument. Then, ask them what they think of it. Is it a good one? If not, why not?
Sometimes they’ll admit that the arguments are good. Great, you’ve planted a seed. Sometimes they’ll change the subject. Gently bring it back around to the argument you’ve made.
I don’t think they’ll be able to answer the arguments in favor of the current pope and bishops and in favor of going to a parish that is approved by the Vatican. But if they think of something that stumps you, let them know that you’re not sure and that you’ll look up the answer and get back to them. That’s a good way to handle any apologetics situation: if you don’t know an answer, don’t wing it, just tell them you don’t know But you’ll get back to them. And then do that. Check it out on Catholic Answers or on these forums or at Dave Armstrong’s site or somewhere else, and then get back with your answer and continue asking them questions. A lot of people have been converted to the faith because good Catholics asked them questions and got them doing research. It can work for SSPX people and sedevacantists too.
I hope this helps. God bless!
C
Catholic4Christ
Guest
Though my hometown has a small SSPX chapel, I’ve never attended it. That being said, I’m very sympathetic to them. Without their presence, for many years they would have been almost no celebration of the 1962 rites of the Sacraments. Their ministry (though perhaps disobedient) led to the Church offering more of the traditional rites, because it became clear that the desire was still there. The beliefs espoused by the Society seem (so far as I can tell) to be profoundly orthodox and Catholic - their disobedience to the Church hierarchy is troubling, but we cannot fool ourselves that all the priests and bishops “on the inside” of the Church’s hierarchy are universally espousing orthodoxy and orthopraxy. I sympathize with those who attend their chapels because many of those Catholics who do so have to choose from either 1) an SSPX priest who is disobedient to the hierarchy but otherwise orthodox and traditional, or 2) a “canonically regular” priest that nonetheless may preach something between fluff and heterodoxy, and/or may celebrate the sacraments irreverently. When you’re in a situation like that, I can imagine it would be a tough choice for an otherwise holy Catholic. Fortunately, especially after the efforts of Pope Benedict, some of the patrimony of our Church is returning to us, but at least in my small experience there is a long way to go before we are where we need to be. If the SSPX in any way have preserved and passed on our Christian patrimony to places where a generation or more of Catholics would otherwise have not received it, then it is hard to be mad at them even if I disagree with some of their rhetoric and don’t attend their chapels. And as others have said, the most important thing is to pray for their canonical unity - because if Catholics cannot be unified amongst themselves, how can we hope to achieve any wider unity among Christians?
C
Cath4life
Guest
I know this is a very general question, but are most latin masses FSSPX or SSPV?? I have met a few people that go to a local latin mass that are always talking about gloom and doom and prophesies and negative about the Pope, etc. but I’m not sure if they are FSSPX or SSPV?
P
Padres1969
Guest
I’d imagine Diocese directly or the FSSP hold more Latin masses than either SSPX or SSPV given that various Dioceses and also FSSP being in communion with Rome and the wider Catholic Church have access to the resources, both direct and indirect, that come with that.
SSPX I’d go out on a limb and say hold more Latin masses than SSPV simply by virtue of being a larger organization (and again one with some standing with Rome).
If the people you’re talking to are Doom and Gloom types it doesn’t mean they’re sedevacantist so they could be any of the organizations listed. If they recognize the Pope as being Pope but are just negative about him then they’re probably not SSPV. Plenty of actual Catholics, including traditionalists, aren’t fond of Pope Francis, but that doesn’t mean they don’t recognize him as the legitimate Pope. Nothing says you have to like the Pontiff to be Catholic.
C
Cath4life
Guest
Good points Thanks!!!
C
commenter
Guest
I am not certain the SSPV has been declared to be heretical, and/or schismatic.
Regarding the SSPX “standing” within the Church:
SSPX Individuals: Yes. Every (suspended) priest can potentially reunite with his Ordinary, as a priest. Certain sacraments are valid, though not necessarily licit. SSPX loyal-laity are only members of their local diocese, as are SSPX clergy, not any other kind of diocese.
**
SSPX Organization:** No, there is no status. The SSPX is not in “irregular” status, it is not like being on probation, not given partial status during the Year of Mercy; there is no known ongoing discussion to “regularize” its status. The pope granted individual laity (who are not members of SSPX, but frequent there) the ability to go to confession to the priests there, and expanded access to confession in other ways, too, having nothing to do with SSPX.
C
commenter
Guest
How to respond?
Keep in mind parents with young families have very different needs than older couples. The fact that SSPX families are often isolated from many family and prolife type activities in dioceses is a major problem, though don’t you be the one to point that out. Don’t tell them they or their children would benefit from closer participation in the diocese; tell them what benefits you or your children receive. There are a lot more orthodox activities in my diocese than there were in the 1970s when the SSPX chapel began. I can’t help thinking that those people feel rejected, Catholics are willing to lecture them but not listen to them.
Do not criticize Archbishop Lefebvre, the SSPX, or anything bad you may have read about.
- Pray for them.
- Love them as individuals, and fellow Catholics. Don’t generalize, they seem to vary widely in their views. Some seem to be very respectful of their local ordinary, others distrust everything that comes from their diocese. Some are motivated by experience of bad liturgy in regular parishes. Others are choosing to attend SSPX Masses almost out loyalty to the SSPX “cause”, even though there are EF Masses within close proximity.
Keep in mind parents with young families have very different needs than older couples. The fact that SSPX families are often isolated from many family and prolife type activities in dioceses is a major problem, though don’t you be the one to point that out. Don’t tell them they or their children would benefit from closer participation in the diocese; tell them what benefits you or your children receive. There are a lot more orthodox activities in my diocese than there were in the 1970s when the SSPX chapel began. I can’t help thinking that those people feel rejected, Catholics are willing to lecture them but not listen to them.
Do not criticize Archbishop Lefebvre, the SSPX, or anything bad you may have read about.
T
TheAmazingGrace
Guest
“Upon this rock I shall build my Church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.”
M
Mayita30
Guest
Base on my experience, most of them are arrogant and obnoxious. They wear their religion on their sleeves and shove their beliefs down your throat. They look down on other people critcizing women’s role in the family and work place, criticizing the priest’s gestures and movements at mass, criticizing not wearing a veil etc… they are the Holier than thou types but when you really ask them what spiritual works of mercy they do…they normally cannot answer because they are just busy in complicated theology instead of doing what Pope Francis tells us to do which is to focus and help other people especially the poor.
They whine and complain how the Catholic Church after post vatican II is not the true Church…ITs what they always do…its what they are known for. They attack, blame, criticize, divide and destroy! Sorry but I do not have anything nice to say about them at all!
C
CuriousMike
Guest
Some people I’ve met recently know of people who went down the path of attending SSPX services. They mentioned these people initially came off as “odd,” but over time seemed to become more and more emotionally disturbed, suspicious and odd-behaving.
Then there were the stories of those that involved themselves personally with the SSPX - and wound up leaving the Church (think I read that on CAF).
The SSPX operates, at least from what I understand in a “valid, but illicit” sense. They are validly ordained priests, but all a suspended from the type of work a priest does.
Then there are the “Toxic Trads,” as Fish-Eaters outlined.
My best guess is that these are people who a super-duper conservative, but more in name and opinion only, rather than interior belief and practice.
FishEaters itself is great reading. It is Pro-TLM, although it seems to offer a nice explanation. There are also plenty of resources for a lot of Catholic practices that just aren’t spoken about anymore.
THAT is the sort of “Traditional Catholicism” we ought to embrace. One that promotes the history of the Church and its practice, not just a here and now, and “Oh, we haven’t done that in years” or “my family is “really really” Catholic and we didn’t even do that” attitude so many take.
In responding to Sedevacanists, I think it is important to at least show respect to them and hear them out. Then offer your own thoughts on the subject, if you are able to. Otherwise, go and research, and try to discuss this “at a future date” with the person in question.
Then there were the stories of those that involved themselves personally with the SSPX - and wound up leaving the Church (think I read that on CAF).
The SSPX operates, at least from what I understand in a “valid, but illicit” sense. They are validly ordained priests, but all a suspended from the type of work a priest does.
Then there are the “Toxic Trads,” as Fish-Eaters outlined.
My best guess is that these are people who a super-duper conservative, but more in name and opinion only, rather than interior belief and practice.
FishEaters itself is great reading. It is Pro-TLM, although it seems to offer a nice explanation. There are also plenty of resources for a lot of Catholic practices that just aren’t spoken about anymore.
THAT is the sort of “Traditional Catholicism” we ought to embrace. One that promotes the history of the Church and its practice, not just a here and now, and “Oh, we haven’t done that in years” or “my family is “really really” Catholic and we didn’t even do that” attitude so many take.
In responding to Sedevacanists, I think it is important to at least show respect to them and hear them out. Then offer your own thoughts on the subject, if you are able to. Otherwise, go and research, and try to discuss this “at a future date” with the person in question.
G
Generic_Name
Guest
Mercy. Got it.
G
Generic_Name
Guest
Actually, I’m curious why you ask them at all about what works of mercy they do. It’s really none of your business.
Pot, meet kettle.
S
smead2942
Guest
There are currently 262 priests in the Fraternity of Saint Peter (FSSP). As of 2012, there were 569 priests in the Fraternity of Saint Pius X (FSSPX). Both orders have booming vocations, and are building new seminaries internationally. I believe there are at least 600 Saint Pius X priests today.
So…no, I think the FSSPX definitely celebrates more Masses than the FSSP, considering they outnumber them more than 2 to 1. There are not nearly as many SSPV priests, and yes, as many previous posters have pointed out, the “Society of Saint Pius V” is a smallish group of outspoken, heretical sedevacantists. NOT to be confused with the Society of Saint Pius X.
- Status