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Oktava
Guest
They are not treated nice, even though they share much more with Rome than Eastern Orthodox.
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DresdenGrin
Guest
Give me an example.
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Brendan_64
Guest
The SSPX aren’t just an organisation outside of the Church who share a lot with Rome, they are Roman Catholics who are inside the Church.
But the point you make is indeed valid. How many of our regular Catholic parishes and parish priests are more than happy to get involved with the local Anglican church, do things ‘ecumenically’, have joint services, encourage joint prayer meetings, joint scripture study groups etc but would never entertain the thought of doing anything jointly with the SSPX?
Of course there are issues, particularly around disobedience, with the SSPX, but it seems to me that in certain quarters of the Church Catholics are implicitly or even explicitly encouraged to get involved with Protestants, attend their services even. It doesn’t stack up.
Personally I will avoid going to SSPX Masses (because of the advice from a good orthodox priest I trust) but they ought not to be regarded as outcasts, but rather as our well-meaning, but somewhat disobedient Catholic brothers and sisters.
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Seamus_L
Guest
The SSPX has now been around for over 45 years and there are a fair number of people who have grown up in it, and it’s chapels may be some of the only places they’ve ever worshipped. So for these people, they haven’t left anything. Just something to consider.
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Brendan_64
Guest
But did the SSPX actually ever ‘walk away’? They didn’t up sticks and march of in schism. There founder committed an act of disobedience and he, the bishops he consecrated and his order were punished as a result. That’s not the same as leaving anything.
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victrolatim
Guest
I want to start out by saying I don’t wish to generalize here, but my experience has been that devotees of the SSPX seem to be, as the other poster said, obsessed with complex theology and seem to be in this bubble where anything post-1962 is “invalid”. Even if it isn’t, the people I have come in contact with will make an hour long, convoluted, argument citing obscure theology to support their position.
The unfortunate circumstance is, a lot of times (especially from what I have experienced), it is assumed that because one attends the Extraordinary Form one must be against Vatican II, etc. which is not always the case. I’ve heard strange arguments from acquaintances which question the validity of the canonizations of John XXII, John Paul II, the Divine Mercy devotion, different religious communities etc. I have since greatly distanced myself from these people, they are nice people otherwise but I grew very tired of listening to 3 hour pseudo-theological arguments praising Bishop Fellay, telling bad jokes about the Holy Father, etc.
I did once attend Mass at the local SSPX chapel just to see what it was like. I did not receive the Eucharist because I did not feel comfortable. To me, the entire chapel had a very odd atmosphere. Nothing was welcoming and it felt like I had stepped into some weird Twilight Zone time bubble. The priest gave a very good sermon, but other than that I felt like I was being stared at because I was not a “regular”
The unfortunate circumstance is, a lot of times (especially from what I have experienced), it is assumed that because one attends the Extraordinary Form one must be against Vatican II, etc. which is not always the case. I’ve heard strange arguments from acquaintances which question the validity of the canonizations of John XXII, John Paul II, the Divine Mercy devotion, different religious communities etc. I have since greatly distanced myself from these people, they are nice people otherwise but I grew very tired of listening to 3 hour pseudo-theological arguments praising Bishop Fellay, telling bad jokes about the Holy Father, etc.
I did once attend Mass at the local SSPX chapel just to see what it was like. I did not receive the Eucharist because I did not feel comfortable. To me, the entire chapel had a very odd atmosphere. Nothing was welcoming and it felt like I had stepped into some weird Twilight Zone time bubble. The priest gave a very good sermon, but other than that I felt like I was being stared at because I was not a “regular”
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ProVobis
Guest
OTOH, people look at me funny when I tell them I attend the Latin Masses (even in communion with Rome). They reason why drive the 30-minutes when I could walk to a Mass just as valid. What does one tell these folks?
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commenter
Guest
I am a sociologist, as both Masters Degrees were closely related and my work was all in that field.
I lack expertise to comment on their theological status (not that lack of knowledge usually slows me down in commenting), but here’s my social assessment:
I am active in prolife and religious liberty efforts. I have never knowingly met anyone, nor heard of anyone, from the local SSPX chapel, and I am the type who usually asks people what parish they belong to. I often meet people who go to the 2 diocesan EF communities at these events.
I am also active in working for orthodoxy in Catholic education. I have often met with people to oppose heterodoxy, and support positive efforts in Catholic education. We are not meeting with invited parish representatives, we are individual parents concerned about making improvements. We even developed a new, orthodox high school, (quietly) approved by the bishop and discouraged by his Catholic education director. I have known other Catholics involved in developing orthodox youth programs and home school resources. *SSPX people would be welcome, but are absent from all that. *
The only time I heard the SSPX pastor in public, was at a prolife rally downtown. He did not in any way help organize the rally, but asked for the microphone to lead the rosary. He did, but he kept making comments denouncing the pope and urging people to distrust our local bishop. (Our bishop is a national leader in prolife and religious liberty).
From a sociologist’s viewpoint, the biggest impacts of a family belonging to SSPX:
- **Isolation **- the parents and children fail to benefit from the many good things in a very imperfect diocese;
- They don’t help reduce bad things, or expand good things in the diocese
- They are no-shows in the united, regional effort for prolife and religious liberty
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Thomas_Casey
Guest
WARNING
I’ve deleted some unsavory comments from this thread. Please speak fairly and politely about each other, the Church, the SSPX and any other human being. It is part of our Catholic tradition to be charitable in word and deed.
I’ve deleted some unsavory comments from this thread. Please speak fairly and politely about each other, the Church, the SSPX and any other human being. It is part of our Catholic tradition to be charitable in word and deed.
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CuriousMike
Guest
Let me just say that I think we need more “good homilists” in the Church.
Too often have Sunday Masses had the homily either omitted because of a Parish dinner, some guest speaker or otherwise. And until recently, I was in a Parish where 5 minutes seemed a meandering struggle.
Thankfully, my new Parish (rest assured I actually moved, so no “parish shopping”) has two Priests of good faith (from what I can tell).
They deliver thought-provoking, although not at all “fire and brimstone” homilies, although the younger Priest strays more toward this in a very direct, succinct manner.
Maybe Priests celebrating the TLM have better understanding of their faith, or are less concerned about “scaring away parishioners,” but from my limited experience, both visiting a TLM chapel and watching EWTN Masses on YouTube - they seem to be more thought-provoking and far more serious in nature than what is often done these days.
Would I have the gusto to speak out against issues facing our society today? Lets not go there
Agreed that the SSPX needs to be included more in our Diocesan activities. After all, we are supposed to be “One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic.” To the best of my knowledge, these guys, despite having rather more conservative outlooks, are still Catholic.
In my experience, trying to meld Catholics and Protestants together for Prayer and Scripture Study is just asking for major differences in opinion. Some of them really don’t like us, and we try to like them. There is often no convincing them that there can only be One Church, with one set of faith-beliefs.
But I digress…
This thread has been interesting.
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commenter
Guest
I think your question has been clarified by other posters, in that there are some differences between the people in SSPX, those who reject the current pope, and those who think the Ordinary Form of liturgy is invalid.
The resources on post 27 may be useful, though some people may be resistant to anything current that argues directly against their position. They are forewarned, and forearmed. A better approach might just be to encourage them to read the actual writings of St Pope Pius X. They may have read snippets here and there, but likely have never read a whole document - especially the document on Catholic Action.
The Saint envisions unified action for the Faith, at the neighborhood, the region, and national level. Explicit in some documents, and implied in other documents, is a close trusting relationship between laity and bishop, cooperation in action among bishops and pastors, and with the Holy See, and the unified laity.
It is possible readers who are skeptical of Catholic Answers type of apologists may be more open to this respected man, and his view of the Church.
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ProVobis
Guest
I suppose you could look at it that way. But I would think the same goes for other organizations who want to take the lead (rather than follow) on these issues as well. I don’t know how many direct mailings I have had asking for contributions for this or that. I doubt if all, or even half, of them are affiliated with the diocese.
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ProVobis
Guest
If you’re referring to the 1988 consecration of the four bishops, instead of the approved one, yes, they were punished by excommunications, which have since been lifted. But the priests had all been suspended as of day one of the (legitimate) founding of the fraternity, which dates back to the early 70’s. The suspensions as I see it are still the major problem currently.
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ProVobis
Guest
From what I’ve seen and heard, I believe much of this (movement) comes from the pulpit. I saw one clip where the priest forbade anyone to receive communion who voted for a pro-abortion candidate. Had to go to confession first, he said.
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PJM
Guest
Whilea POPE MAY & can] this nevertheless is NOT the ESTABLISHED NORM, nor has it been a practice for a prolonged period of time.
PLEASE check out this site, which provides the evidence of my stated position
ewtn.com/johnpaul2/cause/process.asp
God Bless you
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commenter
Guest
You are right. There are many splinter groups, liberal, conservative, and hard to define, each of which claims to be the authentic Catholic Faith, and each of which criticizes, and fails to help, the Church itself. They also fail to confront the common secularist enemy, but focus only on problems in the Church.
This was also true in the time of St. Pope Pius X. His response? Read his writings on Catholic Action.
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TK421
Guest
There is a softness being presented by some here - well-intentioned - which I think is betraying the gravity of the situation, and it is grave.
SSPX priests are witnessing marriages, offering reconciliation, confirming young people, and granting annulments, all the while having no authority to do any of this. Excluding this year, there are de facto parishioners - many of them children - warming the benches of confessionals who are receiving no absolution. There are marriages happening which are not actually happening. There are annulments being granted that are - in the eyes of the Church - nothing more than ink on a page. Because of the zealous nature of the SSPX, there is no doubt a certain strength among the de facto congregants, and yet that energy is shot into space, away from the unity of the Church, and indeed, often directly towards the Church as an assault.
That is why, in spite of it being a Catholic rite, it might be often easier to outreach towards protestant communities than it is with the SSPX, because A) the wounds are fresh, and B) there is a formality to the SSPX dissension. Your everyday protestant won’t discuss Vatican II, and in all likelihood, barely has a clue about it, whereas an SSPX sympathizer is likely to be fully charged up about it. It is for similar reasons that St JPII explained in “Crossing the Threshold of Hope” that although doctrinal dispute between the Catholic Church and Orthodoxy are very small compared to the diaspora of beliefs in protestantism, there is a historical tension and rivalry that can often times make relations with Orthodoxy more difficult than relations with protestantism. If this is true with Orthodoxy, I believe it is all the more true with the SSPX and similar fringe bodies that are not reconciled with Rome.
So responding to these unreconciled Catholics may be one of the hardest jobs in the world, as far as evangelization goes. The close proximity of beliefs can make it harder, not easier.
SSPX priests are witnessing marriages, offering reconciliation, confirming young people, and granting annulments, all the while having no authority to do any of this. Excluding this year, there are de facto parishioners - many of them children - warming the benches of confessionals who are receiving no absolution. There are marriages happening which are not actually happening. There are annulments being granted that are - in the eyes of the Church - nothing more than ink on a page. Because of the zealous nature of the SSPX, there is no doubt a certain strength among the de facto congregants, and yet that energy is shot into space, away from the unity of the Church, and indeed, often directly towards the Church as an assault.
That is why, in spite of it being a Catholic rite, it might be often easier to outreach towards protestant communities than it is with the SSPX, because A) the wounds are fresh, and B) there is a formality to the SSPX dissension. Your everyday protestant won’t discuss Vatican II, and in all likelihood, barely has a clue about it, whereas an SSPX sympathizer is likely to be fully charged up about it. It is for similar reasons that St JPII explained in “Crossing the Threshold of Hope” that although doctrinal dispute between the Catholic Church and Orthodoxy are very small compared to the diaspora of beliefs in protestantism, there is a historical tension and rivalry that can often times make relations with Orthodoxy more difficult than relations with protestantism. If this is true with Orthodoxy, I believe it is all the more true with the SSPX and similar fringe bodies that are not reconciled with Rome.
So responding to these unreconciled Catholics may be one of the hardest jobs in the world, as far as evangelization goes. The close proximity of beliefs can make it harder, not easier.
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otjm
Guest
Very well said.
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otjm
Guest
while what you mention is true, it most certainly does not cover the problems Paul 6th, John Paul 2 and Benedict 16 have had with them.
It was not for no reason that Cardinal Muller said that though they were not in juridical schism, they were in practical schism.
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Brendan_64
Guest
It is a complicated situation. I wasn’t aware that Cardinal Muller said that, but I will take your word on that.
On the other hand we have the Pope talking about the “good faith and sacramental practice” of the SSPX in his letter opening the Year of Mercy (in which he granted them temporary faculties to hear Confession). He stated that from various quarters, several bishops had informed him of this. I wonder whether Bishop Schneider, Cardinal Brandmuller and perhaps even Cardinal Muller himself were these bishops the Pope was referring to. All of these good bishops had met with the SSPX in the months preceding the opening of the Year of Mercy (Bishop Schneider and Cardinal Brandmuller had visiting their seminaries and Cardinal Muller had met with Bishop Fellay).
Rather than condemn, castigate and view them as ‘untouchables’, we should view them as our fellow Catholics, reach out, try to understand and not fold our arms and turn our backs on them. The SSPX are Catholics and, whether we agree with them or not, they are on the margins of our Church. Is the onus not on all of us to reach out to the marginalised rather than wag our fingers at them and condemn them?
We should pray that some day soon there will be a reconciliation and the SSPX will be back fully in the fold again. What a great thing that would be.
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