How to respond to those who call God a mass murderer?

[semper_catholicus]

God didn’t murder anyone. He took their lives away justly as punishment for their wickedness. It’s like the death penalty.

 

[Russell_SA]

To your first point, I never said that the supernatural was magical, you’re saying that.

Yes it is indistinguishable from every magic claim ever made. Mystery solved by magic. Well the mystery was just solved by another bigger mystery.

I only said that He will never be able to be measured empirically, unless you’re talking about archeological claims which, by the way, verify biblical claims.

Empirical measurements is how you determine if a “miracle” has occurred. We can run experiments to see if prayer actually sends cancer into remission or helps people pass a math test or score more touch downs. If there is no empirically measurable information of the supernatural, then you are saying there is no evidence of the supernatural at all except from logical conclusions. There is no water to wine, bread to flesh, etc.

Any research conducted with limited human understanding will never be able to suggest that God is here or there.

Correct because we can document the suspension of the laws of physics and biology, but we can not demonstrate the cause of that to be the supernatural or some other unknown reason.

BTW I like Apologetics, I am reading Irenaeus of Lyon now.

Let me know your thoughts and notes on it. I’m reading Rights of War and Peace, The (Natural Law Cloth) (Bks. 1-3) by Hugo Grotius. Curious that we learn more about how to conduct war instead of how to succeed at peace negotiations.

 

[Russell_SA]

Anyway, I consider a Godless elite manipulatating the poor and encouraging deviant sexual behavior among them and wanting them to become overly reliant on the state, while their families are in total disarray is a snake oil approach if there ever was one.

Why is this religion obsessed with sex? It seems to have the abnormal relationship within. Celibacy is not normal. In a good example, it’s like food. The people that have a healthy appetite for it, understand its risks, all have a balanced life style with food. But the morbidly obese and the anorexia have an unhealthy appetite of food, and that is the church in a nut shell. What consenting adults do to celebrate their love and attraction to each other and reaffirm their relationship is fine if you want to discuss it, but we don’t need to take abnormal sexually stunted advice and shame from these people seriously.
As to the poor, any educated audience knows how the church takes advantage of the poor and ignorant.

removal of their familial and moral structure

I believe the continued normal practice of leaving the family religion is for the family and the church to disown them.
As for the moral structure, being religious does not make you moral. They are not linked. You can have a moral structure completely independent from the church. Which is why so many people use church as just a social event and come to moral conclusions for themselves.

Think about what I say before you respond because I am absolutely certain that this will go way over your head.

I don’t know, has it?

You will not find God unless you are looking for Him and certainly not among self righteous spiritually bereft individuals who are too comfortable to even imagine the God that Sees, Lives and Rules over them.

I just want to know if she exists or not. Then we can have a conversation of governmental power, ownership, human rights, etc.

Finally, it is on you to prove a self creating universe, something never comes from nothing.

Ding Ding, now change out self creating universe for self creating deity. Same argument.

I do know because I have experienced God Himself in the very places I told you where you can find Him.

Well I didn’t. So how do we determine who is right?

I am a recovering alcoholic who hasn’t drank since 2013.

Great, keep it up.

The whole time I was begging God not to allow this to happen to me and just when I said that I thought that God had a purpose for me the temptation vanished and I dumped the bottles in the toilet and I have not had the feeling since.

Glad that worked for you.

 

[Russell_SA]

Now, I know you have your presumptions, your kind always do, ideas like “weak minded, needing religion” and so forth.

I don’t fault people for what they use to get through the day. I do care if they try to teach other people that their methods are actually describing reality and if they are trying to stunt education in schools and if their cultural practices are harming others, aka: aids is bad, but not as bad as condoms.

Tell me about your utopia and how perfect a person you are if you can.

I’m not perfect, I’m human. I can be a complete A**hat sometimes and other times a perfect gentleman. Depends on the situation. I acknowledge my dark sides so that I can identify when I am in that mood and let myself fully experience it so that I can work through it. I don’t try to shove it down and stop myself from emotionally exploring it. Otherwise, I’ll never develop the emotional skills to actually deal with that side of ourselves.

If you want find God then pray to Him, I’m sure that there was a time in your life when you knew how. Just try it, it won’t kill you.

I have. I never even got an answering machine telling me she’ll get back to me. I got nothing at all. I get nothing at all every time. So I’m done demonstrating to everyone else that their cultural practices actually manifest anything at all. It’s up to your deity to demonstrate herself. My door is open and I reserve the right to kick her out if she’s a terrible individual or to start a great relationship with.

 

[Russell_SA]

I deny anyone the right to kill someone who is not fighting back. You can die by a gun fight with the police, that’s fine because you are directly trying to kill someone else and they are using lethal force to stop you. But once you are captured, no one should have the right to kill you once you are no longer a threat. No governing agent should ever have the power to kill the people willing to be governed.

 

[Russell_SA]

Perhaps it is you that is living in a bubble of your own design. I presume that you come from a Christian background, your parents grandparents, etc.

I was raised around it but I was never religious. That’s true for just about everyone. I can acknowledge my heritage, but I don’t have to respect it. Ever heard of the south always talking about the pride of their heritage with the power to enslave people and fighting to keep it, for example?
This is a fundamental difference - respect is earned and maintained, not granted just by your station. I can still take care of my elderly grandparents as well, even if they are still racists and religious fundamentalists. That’s because it’s important to me to show the people around me that you are to take care of those that you can, even if you completely disagree with their character. No one should be abandoned to the streets and an isolated home.

The inquisition killed only 100s of thousands of people, no where near what you’re thinking in that mind of yours, nor to communism.

Fair-minded people, I’ve addressed this already and very clearly and recently:

there is no such thing as atheism. There is the label atheist. An atheist a person’s single response to a single question. “Are you convinced that the supernatural exists based on someone else’s bad reasons and the bad evidence in reality?” No, no we are not. Just like a jury member who is not convinced the defendant is guilty of the crime. Can you tell me what that jury member’s world view is? their political view? their level of education? their biasness? their leaders? their tenants? anything at all about them? No, no you can not. There is no, Not-Guilty-ism world view just like there is no Atheism world view. There are world views that tend to have more atheists in them, like secular humanism and skeptics, but you can still be religious and be part of those world views as well.

If you want to talk about what political governing body produces the most body counts and what produces the best cultural results, we can, but that’s a long side note of sociology.

 

[Russell_SA]

These fantasies about the Church being what it wasn’t are just ahistorical garbage and no secular repressive propaganda will change that and many, like me, are waking up to the truth of the beauty of our heritage and more and more everyday.

Lets start with a conversation over this:

As I said, we have the archeological record and we can either accept or reject the stories or accept or reject God.

I can accept them as stories of a cultural’s deity, that’s fine.

I have experienced God as I explained in my previous post and I will say to you again (from previous post) if you want to find God then pray to Him, ask Him. You will never find Him your way.

Great, then pray to her to tell me what would change my mind about her. First that it would change my mind about her appearing to not exist at all and then what her character would be. Or she could just do it herself right?

I have my nephew here

Have fun with the family.

 

[semper_catholicus]

There are certain crimes which merit death as their punishment.

"It is written: “Wizards thou shalt not suffer to live” (Ex. 22:18); and: “In the morning I put to death all the wicked of the land” (Ps. 100:8). …

Every part is directed to the whole, as imperfect to perfect, wherefore every part exists naturally for the sake of the whole. For this reason we see that if the health of the whole human body demands the excision of a member, because it became putrid or infectious to the other members, it would be both praiseworthy and healthful to have it cut away. Now every individual person is related to the entire society as a part to the whole. Therefore if a man be dangerous and infectious to the community, on account of some sin, it is praiseworthy and healthful that he be killed in order to safeguard the common good, since “a little leaven corrupteth the whole lump” (1 Cor. 5:6).
(Summa Theologiae, II, II, q. 64, art. 2)” -St. Thomas Aquinas

 

[Eric_Hyom]

.What consenting adults do to celebrate their love and attraction to each other and reaffirm their relationship is fine

That seems to be the reason that when children reach fifteen, about half of them are not living with both their biological parents in the Uk. Marriage for life between loving couples is being destroyed by this need for self gratification.

 

[Elf01]

I don’t have to respect it.

Your posts made it obvious but thanks for finally admitting that you have no respect for religion.

 

[Russell_SA]

You directly imply that it should be granted just because it is religion. That is absurd and creepy. Respect is earned. Want to stop bemoaning people don’t respect your religion, then engage them to see why your religion isn’t something to be respected and what you can do to change it. Blind respect is what allows your religion to continue to get away with what it still does.

 

[Russell_SA]

Maybe they do not see a need to be married to enjoy a full life at that point in their lives. How about you ask them what their thoughts on marriage are instead of bemoaning that they are not taking it the same way you do. What makes you think that your pathway to a full life should be the expectation of everyone else?

It’s also kind of creepy to expect a 15 year old to be married off. I know child brides are prolific in religions, but it’s disgusting to everyone else.

 

[Russell_SA]

I believe it says witches. Also, there never were witches and wizards in reality. Sorry but magic does not exist in this universe.
Also noticed how you left out the genocide and infanticide your deity performed as well. Killing the innocent is not the character of a loving person. It’s the character of someone that does not value human life.

I do not recognize the moral authority of your religion, deity, or your texts. So referencing your religion as a source for the laws of our nation can be brought to the table, but they are no more significant than if I brought a Marvel comic.

 

[semper_catholicus]

God is the Author of life, so he may do with it as he pleases. It’s HIS to give and take, not ours.

Magic actually does exist, but it’s not what you might think. People can make pacts with demons and demons can do things which look like magic.

 

[Sleepy2]

So you are ok with one of the first actions taken by the early church was to kill off a married couple because they lied about how much money they had given to the church? Taking the angle that god did the killing makes it even worse.

OP was asking about god and mass murder and this is the example that caused me to reconsider the church and then faith. Perhaps I could understand separation from god for all eternity, even hell, for the sin a lie… but to kill off two of the first Christians for this is not comprehensible to me.

 

[Russell_SA]

Thank you for your position. I disagreed with your moral assessment of your deity and your understanding of reality.

 

[semper_catholicus]

There are actually wizards nowadays. Do you know anything about Satanism?

 

[Elf01]

I’d expect somebody on a site dedicated to a religion to at least pretend to respect it.

 

[Russell_SA]

Well once they can demonstrate their powers, then I’ll take them seriously. Right now they are just people who took their D&D characters too seriously.

 

[semper_catholicus]

I would suggest checking out Zachary King. He’s a former Satanic High Wizard who converted to Catholicism. You can just type his name in YouTube and his testimony will come up.

They demonstrate their magic, just not always in public, or you’ve never seen it.