How to respond to those who call God a mass murderer?

[Russell_SA]

How are they defining what sin is?

 

[kainosktisis]

Sin is any offense against God, be it pride, fornication, theft, profanity, desecration of things Holy, dishonoring one’s parents, cheating on one’s spouse, being covetous, placing anyone or anything above God, profaning God’s Name, committing murder, taking anything created & making it God…

 

[Russell_SA]

I don’t know if they are using sin the way you use sin. I know some people believe the idea of Adam’s sin being passed on to the children and everyone else is an absurd moral stance to take. The idea of the sins of the father being now the sins of the children is offensive to people like me. Also, with this idea, it directly implies the idea of being created sick and then commanded to be well. That is also an absurd moral position to take.
Sinning implies there is someone there to sin against. So people like me do not believe there is anyone there to sin against, so its nothing to worry about. Now if I upset someone else, then they need to let me know what upset them and I’ll see if it was something I need to apologize for. Some people are just looking for reasons to get upset. Like the old joke of the nuns walking up to Samuel Johnson for his work on the dictionary. They went to thank him for leaving out the swear words. “Well ladies, I congratulate you for continuously looking them up.” - the idea being, that people that want to be offended will continuously look for ways to be offended.
Pride is not a sin to me.
Fornication is not a sin to me.
Profanity is not a sin to me.
Desecration of things holy is not a sin to me, if it is just dismissing them as magical holy items and reduced to their significance of just being cultural relics. If someone defames them or destroys them, then I’ll go after them.
Dishonoring parents - not a sin to me. You don’t deserve respect just for creation of beings, you deserve respect for the relationship you have with them. Respect, like love, is earned and given freely. If it is demanded and expected, then that person is not to be respected and does not know what it means to earn it.
Covetous is not a sin to me.
I place lots of things above your cultural idea of a deity. It’s your favorite toy, not mine.
Profaning your deity’s name - not my problem. Again, it’s your favorite toy, not mine.
These lists of sins are not anything I worry about because how often do you worry about upsetting the pharaoh’s deities? Or the Greek Deities? or worry about their god’s wrath and hells? Same as much as I do with yours.

 

[kainosktisis]

In the absence of any Deity, we all have a void to fill in our lives, so something’s gotta take His place. In this case, you’ve put yourself on the throne. Sin in your eyes is sin, so you opt to throw it to the wind & do as you please. But I’m sure you’ll raise the proverbial hell should anyone actually sin against you in the Biblical sense.

If you choose to live a lawless life, you must give that same option to others like you, & you may not like their choices & the impacts those choices have on you.

A question: are you a Satanist - whether actually worshipping Satan or merely viewing him as symbolic?

 

[Russell_SA]

In the absence of any Deity, we all have a void to fill in our lives, so something’s gotta take His place

I don’t have a void to fill that is to take the place of your cultural superstitions. Sorry, but I just don’t. I can point to ideas that are similar or compatible, like the idea of the perfect self to hold my self accountable to for my continued development as you point to your cultural superstitions as well.

In this case, you’ve put yourself on the throne.

I don’t see how you came to this. I place lots of things above myself. The well being of my loved ones, my obligations to my work and coworkers, my health over junk food, etc. I just don’t worry about my priorities offending your cultural demons and ghosts.

f you choose to live a lawless life, you must give that same option to others like you, & you may not like their choices & the impacts those choices have on you.

I do not live a lawless life. I live in a society and comport to the societal rules that I have been convinced of as being correct for everyone’s social benefit. If there are rules that I disagree with, then I work to change them and subvert them where ever I can. Such as being a jury member. I love being on a jury since we as a jury can find someone not guilty of a crime that is legal on the books to be a crime. That is one way to subvert laws you disagree with. If juries would stop finding people guilty of crimes they do not agree are crimes, then no prosecutor will bring people to trial for breaking those laws since their careers are based on wins.

A question: are you a Satanist - whether actually worshipping Satan or merely viewing him as symbolic?

Atheists are not convinced that any version of the supernatural exists. So, apply your logic here, would I be a Satanist?

I would like to see a trial where we put your deity and your devil on trial to see who was the better spirit for humanity. One defense for your devil is that it brought the idea of knowledge for knowledge sake to people while your deity seemed to just want ignorant credulous people. This devil saw that we have the potential to do bad as well as good and that we have it in ourselves to own the that responsibility. Your deity would have kept us all intellectually stunted and never let us grow up to our full potential. The rest of your religious texts are all about your deity getting irritated that we still do that. We out grow your deity and it pitches a fit and floods the world or sends a plague or kills off innocent children or buggers around with jobe or and so on and so on. I think you got your deities backwards by morality and just wanted to worship the most powerful one.

 

[curious_cath]

Why do you think God regulated which animals the Israelites could eat as well as which ones they could sacrifice if He had prohibited the consumption of meat?

I only said God is vegetarian, therefore He does not need bloody sacrifice. Men can eat meat. You are right, they can choose if they want to be vegetarian or not.

 

[kainosktisis]

I don’t know if they are using sin the way you use sin. I know some people believe the idea of Adam’s sin being passed on to the children and everyone else is an absurd moral stance to take. The idea of the sins of the father being now the sins of the children is offensive to people like me. Also, with this idea, it directly implies the idea of being created sick and then commanded to be well. That is also an absurd moral position to take.

Sinning implies there is someone there to sin against. So people like me do not believe there is anyone there to sin against, so its nothing to worry about. Now if I upset someone else, then they need to let me know what upset them and I’ll see if it was something I need to apologize for. Some people are just looking for reasons to get upset. Like the old joke of the nuns walking up to Samuel Johnson for his work on the dictionary. They went to thank him for leaving out the swear words. “Well ladies, I congratulate you for continuously looking them up.” - the idea being, that people that want to be offended will continuously look for ways to be offended.

Pride is not a sin to me.

Fornication is not a sin to me.

Profanity is not a sin to me.

Desecration of things holy is not a sin to me, if it is just dismissing them as magical holy items and reduced to their significance of just being cultural relics. If someone defames them or destroys them, then I’ll go after them.

Dishonoring parents - not a sin to me. You don’t deserve respect just for creation of beings, you deserve respect for the relationship you have with them. Respect, like love, is earned and given freely. If it is demanded and expected, then that person is not to be respected and does not know what it means to earn it.

Covetous is not a sin to me.

I place lots of things above your cultural idea of a deity. It’s your favorite toy, not mine.

Profaning your deity’s name - not my problem. Again, it’s your favorite toy, not mine.

These lists of sins are not anything I worry about because how often do you worry about upsetting the pharaoh’s deities? Or the Greek Deities? or worry about their god’s wrath and hells? Same as much as I do with yours.

How can you put a Being on trial if you don’t believe He exists?

How can you accuse a Being of crimes (which involves morals - invoking a Moral Lawgiver because we are relational beings) if you don’t believe He exists?

This is denial. His existence is articulated in angry terms intended to provoke, belittle, ignore, & place Him beneath the feet of the accusers, but their actions betray their true intent.

Why are you angry at God? What do you believe He’d done to fail you?

 

[Russell_SA]

How can you put a Being on trial if you don’t believe He exists?

Same way you can have a superman movie and the character goes on trial.

How can you accuse a Being of crimes (which involves morals - invoking a Moral Lawgiver because we are relational beings) if you don’t believe He exists?

Same way we can accuse Voldemort was an immoral character.

This is denial. His existence is articulated in angry terms intended to provoke, belittle, ignore, & place Him beneath the feet of the accusers, but their actions betray their true intent.

Her actions, not her existence, is articulated in angry terms. You can be angry at a fictional character too or do you not get emotionally invested in your favorite sitcom characters?

Why are you angry at God? What do you believe He’d done to fail you?

Moral character of your deity is bankrupt to me based on the textual evidence of it from your cultural books of reference. I get furious at the character of Dolores Umbridge is in the Harry Potter series as well.

Characters don’t have to actually exist in reality for you to get upset over them. Why do I have to point this out? What reality do you live in where people don’t do this with fictional characters of literature?

 

[Gorgias]

What many people completely misunderstand is that God is vegetarian!

blink
blink blink

Umm… wha?

So, God creates animals that eat animals. God Himself is spiritual, so He eats neither plants nor animals. And… He’s a vegetarian?

He says:

11"What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?" Says the LORD. "I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams And the fat of fed cattle; And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs or goats. 12"When you come to appear before Me, Who requires of you this trampling of My courts? (Isaiah 1:11-12)

You realize that God is telling the Israelites that their focus is off-kilter, right? He’s not removing the sacrifices; rather, He’s telling His people that He doesn’t want sacrifice if it comes without love of God or neighbor.

This isn’t “I hate sacrifice”; it’s “I hate sacrifice accompanied by a lack of covenant love.”

God takes no pleasure in animal blood, flesh and meat. He does not eat cattle, bulls, lambs or goats. Why would He do that?

So, your eisegetical answer is “God wasn’t the one who called for animal sacrifice”, then?

God is not eating meat, He is vegetarian. God has His reasons.

God isn’t eating veggies, either.

 

[Gorgias]

The idea of the sins of the father being now the sins of the children is offensive to people like me.

Right. Cause the actions of the parents never have effects on their children.

Also, with this idea, it directly implies the idea of being created sick and then commanded to be well. That is also an absurd moral position to take.

Actually, if you were able to correctly elucidate Catholic teaching, that’d be nice. As it is, when you (deliberately? Unknowingly?) explain it inaccurately…

Humanity was created without blemish, but with free will. Having misused free will by disobeying God, humanity wounded itself. We all share in the effects of sin. We are created well and asked to recover from our personal sins. (Except you, I guess, since you don’t sin. )

These lists of sins are not anything I worry about

So, then, your claim is that atheists are amoral? That is, there is no ‘sin’, so there is no such thing as a ‘moral’ or ‘immoral’ act? In other words, you’re claiming that atheists cannot do things that are morally good. OK… fair enough.

 

[Russell_SA]

Cause the actions of the parents never have effects on their children

Insulting the intelligence of the audience. Assuming bad parenting presupposes we should judge the children before they do anything to to be judged on. Also, implies that we are not responsible for our actions based on our parental environment, so not the children’s fault then. What a stupid point to make. Stop wasting our time with these comments.

Humanity was created without blemish, but with free will. Having misused free will by disobeying God, humanity wounded itself. We all share in the effects of sin. We are created well and asked to recover from our personal sins.

Sorry but your deity’s lists of “sins” are absurd and the level of outrage it reacts with is childish. You’re basically worshiping Lenny from Mice and Men since he was the strongest in the story.

So, then, your claim is that atheists are amoral?

Again, what a stupid question. Fair-minded readers, is this person really a representative of your religion? Atheists don’t care about sinning against someone that appears to not exist at all. How concerned are you for sinning against Superman? Atheists care about the people in their lives and where our society can improve on and engaging in those conversations. Further absurdities like this will just be ignored.

 

[kainosktisis]

“Same way you can have a superman movie and the character goes on trial.”

…Except that there is a growing movement of people disbelieving in a Deity that they angrily invoke a moral law accusing Him of crimes denying His existence & like Nietzsche wanting Him dead, all the while denying that a moral law exists (to their own endeavors), but expressing their own outrage invoking a moral law…

Voldemort doesn’t exist in real life, but I would say that he is modeled after Satan. Since you’ve denied that sin exists (except where God offends you by your own moral standards - your own standard of sin), one has to wonder why even Voldemort offends you since he’s doing exactly what you have expressed: a denial of sin:

“There is no good & no evil: there is only power.”

Dolores Umbridge is a Voldemort lackey. She, too, operates off of power indiscriminately.

Well, it looks like we’ve both read all of the Harry Potter Books (or at least seen all of the movies - or both)… :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

 

[kainosktisis]

Have you ever heard of Eucharistic miracles?

There is a scientist from South America (if memory serves me well) who was an atheist - until he investigated the Eucharistic miracles at the request of then Cardinal Bergolio. He has since become Catholic, but he’d made it clear that some in the media outwardly wanted to discredit his findings, & they couldn’t.

He’d discussed his findings in a YouTube video here (There’s a short version & a long version with more material covered):

Short Version (in Spanish with English Subtitles):

Long Version (It’s in Spanish & is long):

The dr is Dr. Ricardo Castañon Gomez.

I thought his findings were astounding. I’m sure many will disbelieve, but that is a choice. Should you be so inclined to hear what he has to say - & you understand Spanish - it’s there.

From the Catholic Journal on Eucharistic Miracles:

This Is My Body-This Is My Blood - Catholic Journal

 

[Gorgias]

Insulting the intelligence of the audience.

Maybe I should appeal to “fair-minded readers”, and see if anyone feels their intelligence has been insulted.

Assuming bad parenting presupposes we should judge the children before they do anything to to be judged on.

Totally missing the point. This isn’t a discussion of ‘bad parenting’, it’s a simple observation: the actions of the parents affect their children. If that insults your intelligence… well, then check your intelligence.

Also, implies that we are not responsible for our actions based on our parental environment, so not the children’s fault then.

Not at all. Did I say that parents were solely responsible for the states of their childrens’ lives? Of course not. After all, that would be a “stupid point to make.” I might suggest that I’m not the one who should stop wasting our time with silly assertions.

 

[curious_cath]

God Himself is spiritual, so He eats neither plants nor animals. And… He’s a vegetarian?

Vegetarians are those who do not eat meat. God does not eat meat. It is a good mental exercise for fundamentalists to imagine a vegetarian God. It would help them to overcome their animal sacrificing fetish.

So, your eisegetical answer is “God wasn’t the one who called for animal sacrifice”, then?

It is obvious. You don;t need exegesis to conclude that.

 

[Gorgias]

Vegetarians are those who do not eat meat.

Umm… so, all dead people are vegetarians? Stones are vegetarians? Nice try.

It is obvious. You don;t need exegesis to conclude that.

I know. Exegesis doesn’t lead to that conclusion. Eisegesis does.

 

[curious_cath]

all dead people are vegetarians? Stones are vegetarians?

God is not dead man. Not even a stone. Lol.

 

[Agathon]

Vegetarians are those who do not eat meat. God does not eat meat.

He doesn’t eat ANY food. God is spirit.

 

[Gorgias]

Gorgias:

all dead people are vegetarians? Stones are vegetarians?

God is not dead man. Not even a stone. Lol.

Your definition, not mine. “Vegetarians are all those who do not eat meat.” Dead people eat no meat. Stones eat no meat. Therefore, by your definition, dead people and stones are vegetarians.

 

[curious_cath]

Your definition, not mine.

Alright. It was not a definition. I don’t define anything in faith matters. It is God who defines me and you.