How to respond to traditionalist catholics about their attitude towards the new mass

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marcsababa said:
These traditionalists pride themselves on their knowledge and I fear for them especially when they are my friends.
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I think this is the main difficulty in traditionalist, or any one else on the planet. Pride. It is hard to counter and something most of us struggle with. It sounds like you are using the only weapon against pride. Humility. If you find yourself being drawn into having to take a prideful stance against theirs, it is time to break from the topic and have a time out. Arrogance begats arrogance and sin is contagious.
 
Atreyu said:
So long as you respect the decisions of the bishops to control the order of the mass, and so long as you go to TLM’s under indult, then I see no problem with this. I find it a little strange that you “dread” the one time of year you have to put up with (as it were) the newer missal (I don’t like to call it the “novus ordo”). Why would you dread coming into the presence of our Lord? Mass is about worship, it is not a spectacle.
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Wow. I guess you won’t like it when I and a couple of buddies of mine go to the local SSPX chapel sometime. I hope it doesn’t keep you awake at night. See, I can be caring and sharing too. 👍

And why would you not like to call it the novus ordo? That’s what the Church called it. I dread it for the same reason so many on this forum would dread going to a TLM. If it’s ok for them, it’s ok for me. I know some people get irritated when I apply the same standard to both Masses. But I’m cursed with an impeccably logical mind.
 
Malcolm_McLean said:
One way of looking at the Latin Mass Society is as the steam engine preservation society.
Steam locomotives are smelly, polluting, and expensive. That’s why not a single major railway system in the world uses them for serious passenger services.
However it is pity to see the things consigned to oblivion, so, for example, the Worth valley railway, a short stretch of track from Keighley to Haworth, uses steam. A ticket costs ten pounds (twenty dollars) and the staff work voluntarily. However it is a nice attraction.

However most Latin Mass Society members would say that the movement goes beyond steam preservation, and is trying to resist a modern trend towards irreverence. That’s where things get difficult. By attending a Latin Mass, you necessarily disparage the new mass.
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Exhibit “A” on how this issue cuts both ways.

I attend an Indult Mass. I find the worship more reverent and focused than the Pauline Mass. I don’t however have a problem one bit with the Pauline Mass other than the sloppy way in which it is usually done. Are there some “traditionalists” who think they are better than the Pauline Mass folk? Yes and I have no problem speaking up to that when such sentiment is expressed. As a Knight of Columbus and Catholic man I will also defend the Pope to my death. But all in a charitable manner of course.

Perhaps not meaning to be offensive, I also hear sentiments like that above which I find disturbing. From some of my Pauline Mass friends I have heare the TLM disparaged and mocked with my favorite being “the Latin Mass sucks”. How ignorant! But that is the state of many Catholics these days.

A friend of mine brought his family to the TLM just to experience it. Upon entering, his wife apparently made some snide comments about the women wearing mantillas and such. However, when she left she exclaimed that she had never been to a Mass where everybody knew why they were there and even remarked that maybe her grandmother would give her and old mantilla to wear next time. That sentiment by her I think really sums it up for me. When I go to the Pauline Mass I often feel as many around me don’t really believe that Christ is present otherwise they wouldn’t behave as they do.

So back to my point. I believe this issue cuts both ways and folks like us in the middle have an obligation to correct the ignorance on both sides of the issue through both charitable discourse and by setting a good example. Pope Benedict isn’t freeing up the TLM to create two groups within the Church but rather to utlimately bring us back together again perhaps with one Mass that through the Lord’s guidance incorporates the best elements of both the TLM and Pauline.

Vivat Iesus.
 
I haven’t attended a TLM before, i just saw it in pictures and read the missal in the net. And i just hope that one day i will be able to attend one.

For me, i do like the NO mass. The liturgy is as rich as the TLM before. The problem is the overuse of vernacular language and promotion of modern music. If we will read the Sacrosanctum Concilium we will find that the NO mass is not intended to adopt the vernacular totally and accept totally the modern music and instruments.

Latin, Gregorian chants and polyphonic, organ etc is really encourage. For me the use of some latin in mass is never a problem. Eventhough i dont really understand much Latin but still i know that i am with the Universal church in that prayer.

For example, I think i dont really need to know fully the eucharistic prayer because that prayer is not for me but for the Father. And the Father can understand well Latin because God made Latin the official language of the church.

Native language is useful when the priest communicates with the people like the Readings and Gospel, Homily.
 
I have a problem with the EDIT radical traditionalists that say the NO lacks reverence and sincerity. I have indeed gone to NO masses that have lacked reverence and I stay as far away from these Masses as I can. I have attended the TLM several times and I will probably go back again occasionally.

I have a problem with the TLM. I don’t know Latin at all. I would venture to say a lot of people that go to the TLM don’t know Latin either. Yes, you can follow along in the missal but then you are just reading along in a book and not paying attention to what is going on at the Altar. You are not fully participating in the Mass. Just watch the people praying the rosary during the TLM to see how much people pay attention to the Mass.

I believe the NO Mass needs some changes. The changes need to be enforced by the bishops. But I have been to NO Masses that have been more reverend than any TLM I have been to. The NO Mass at St. Bernards Abbey in Cullman, AL is such a place. They still begin every Sunday Mass by blessing and sprinkling of the Holy Water. The Gloria, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei is all done in Latin. The songs are all psalms that are chanted. If every NO Mass was said like this I don’t think there would be a large outcry for the TLM.

Another thing I don’t like about the TLM is there is only the Gospel reading that is done in English. I like having the 2 readings, the psalm, and the Gospel reading during the Mass. I just don’t get as much out of the TLM as I do a well said NO Mass. But I have no problem with the people who feel attached to the TLM and want to go, I just have a problem with the EDIT radical trads who think the TLM is a better Mass than the NO.
 
Why is “rad trad” apparently acceptable, while words like “neocon” have been scrupulously banned and forbidden?
 
AlexV said:
Why is “rad trad” apparently acceptable, while words like “neocon” have been scrupulously banned and forbidden?
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Both are against the rules. That is why there is a “report post” icon. The mods can’t be everywhere. Any such name-calling and labeling is counterproductive and prejudicial.
 
Dr.Bombay said:
But I’m cursed with an impeccably logical mind.
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If you are so logical, dear friend, then how can you attend a ST. Pius the X-gathering?

I call you dear friend, because I am a fellow latin Mass attendee, but I am not as antagonistic about it all.

LeFevre (for whom I have been inspired now to pray after seeing that gorgeous angelic face) stepped outside the Church by his own actions. Any follower of his steps outside as well. Even if you are not a cedevacantist, or “holier than the pope” type, why go to the ST. Pius X-mass?

The teaching authority of the church and its power to distribute sacraments is directly from God so long as its actions come through the succession of Bishops. With Levbre that is broken.
 
CatholicMetis said:
If every NO Mass was said like this I don’t think there would be a large outcry for the TLM.
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You have voiced a deep down opinion of mine. We do not have access to such a NO mass, and our TLM FSSP priest and the members of our LM parish community are dear to my heart. So I stay with the TLM. The FSSP seems to put out great priests. We have had three so far and I am grateful for each one.They are each unique yet the stamp of FSSP is there.
 
I am sorry I used the term “rad trad” This is what is called radical traditionalists. Not everyone who goes to the TLM is a “rad trad” a “rad trad” would be someone who thinks that the only valid mass is the TLM and the Mass of V2 must be done away with.

But since it is against the rules apparently to use this term I will not use it in any more of my posts.
 
There is no “Mass of Vatican II”.

Vatican II’s documents do not call for a new Mass.

The documents themselves ask for remarkably few alterations to the existing Mass of centuries.
 
By attending a Latin Mass, you necessarily disparage the new mass.
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I don’t agree with this statement. That would be like saying that these Masses are in opposition to each other and they’re not. I think one can attend the Latin Mass and not be disparaging anything. I know some who attend that don’t disparage. That said, I know many that do. And as some have pointed out, the disparaging sometimes goes both ways. It’s always the extremists who do the disparaging in both camps.
 
marcsababa said:
Good stuff Atreyu!!!

Dr. Bombay!!! I get your point about preference for a type of mass, but you, along with my friends, exhibit this tendency of downplaying the reality of the true presence of Christ at all masses, as Atreyu kindly pointed out.

That is what bugs me!!! I just never was able to pin point the source of my ire.

As fellow strugglers, let us not take insult but proceed with examining this question in all charity.

I also have “dreaded” a certain family mass obligation that take the form of the Life Teen mass (the priest acts like a taljk show host.:o ). I tried so hard each time to focus on Christ and to keep my thoughts pure that I actually had a mass “experience” that was as uplifting as the glories of the Tridentine rite.
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How about we examine these questions: Why is it that Traditionalists are the only ones expected to provide their Catholic bona fides by slavering over the novus ordo? Why don’t we demand from Eastern Catholics their pledge of unwavering love of the novus ordo and hector them into admitting it can be “celebrated” reverently and solemnly, if done right? Why don’t we demand that they must attend the novus ordo because, after all, the Pope says it? (Is that breathing out of both lungs?) Is everything in our brave, new Church to be tolerated except a preference for the TLM?

What if your opening post had been worded thusly:

**I attend the novus ordo because it is an excellent mass and has a good community. I do not hate the ****old mass, though many current versions of it and the communities that attend it in my area are not as uplifting as my own. However I do like to defend the validity of the old mass and have used the example of the past pope who did celebrate the old mass. I assume the current pope also celebrates the old mass.

My irritatingly (yet lovely in other ways) modernist friends have brushed off my comments by saying that the Pope is only a leader in matters of faith and morals. If he chooses to celebrate the old mass, say my friends, that does not indicate that it is okay to attend.

I think that the mass one celebrates is a matter of faith and morals, but I can’t seem to get the argument on a good logical footing. I get mad because they shrug and turn away without willingness to continue the debate. I also get mad because they say they would never attend an old mass. This attitude, I know can lead to sin.

PLease help with a few pointers on this topic.**

Kinda gives a new perspective, no?
 
marcsababa said:
If you are so logical, dear friend, then how can you attend a ST. Pius the X-gathering?

I call you dear friend, because I am a fellow latin Mass attendee, but I am not as antagonistic about it all.

LeFevre (for whom I have been inspired now to pray after seeing that gorgeous angelic face) stepped outside the Church by his own actions. Any follower of his steps outside as well. Even if you are not a cedevacantist, or “holier than the pope” type, why go to the ST. Pius X-mass?

The teaching authority of the church and its power to distribute sacraments is directly from God so long as its actions come through the succession of Bishops. With Levbre that is broken.
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Why wouldn’t I go to an SSPX Mass?? NO Bishops have been known to cavort with heathens, apostates and heretics of all stripes. I’m just keeping open the channel of dialogue in a grand ecumenical gesture. Who’s against ecumenism???

And the SSPX still has Apostolic succession. Excommunication can’t break that.
 
I think there’s a problem here that a few people have brought up that merits further discussion. There’s a line of thinking in the Church that there is no room for “Eucharist bi-ritualism,” as the French Bishops called it when they recently protested to the Holy Father about the upcoming expansion of Tridentine faculties–that line of thinking is DEAD WRONG (no pun intended, being the 31st and all. lol).

This line of thinking, i.e. “The Roman way or the highway,” has led to the suppression and extinction of some very beautiful liturgical rites of the Western lung of the Catholic Church, rites which I think were the poster-child of AUTHENTIC liturgical diversity. Systematically, the beautiful Sarum, Gallican, Mozarabic, and Ambrosian rites (to name a few) were stamped out in the name of “Roman uniformity.” Unfortunatley, some advocates of the Tridentine usage still cling to the canon of the Council of Trent that brought this about.

They feel that the Holy Father has somehow fallen into apostasy because he does not, they claim, recognize the “superiority of the Tridentine rite.” This attitude even led some bishops in this country to spurn and shun our Eastern Catholic brethren for clinging to “inferior rites.” This, as most of you know, wrongly led Father Alexis Toth to lead THOUSANDS away from the Catholic faith in the early 20th century.

A closer examination of the Council of Trent, of course, will reveal that this attitude of “roman superiority” is nonsense. The documents of the Second Vatican Council, too, ENCOURAGE liturgical diversity within both lungs of the Catholic Church. Countless satements of the Holy Fathers safeguard liturgical diversity within the Catholic Church.

But like Alexis Toth, the EDIT “radical-traditionalists” have allowed the fact that they have been cruelly mistreated and marginalized by the hierarchy and faithful to be a sufficient means of denying the authority of the Holy Father and the sacred councils of the Church. It’s a nasty situation.

I’d like to say that we’d all have learned something since poor Poor Bishop Lefevbre felt compelled to illicitly consecrate four bishops for his fraternity. But we haven’t. The “Roman way or the highway” mentality is unfortunately still a part of the consciousness of the hierarchy and faithful today. They feel that since the Sacred Canons of Vatican II and the decrees of Paul VI established liturgical reform and proclaimed the product of that reform to be the normative rite of the Church, that it is the ONLY permissible rite of the Latin Church. Anyone who prefers something different is instantly a second-class Catholic.

The fastest way to bring about a healthy reconcilliation between the followers of the SSPX and the followers of the Roman Pontiff is to encourage ritualistic pluarism within the Latin Church once more. Benedict XVI has taken marvelous steps towards doing just that. 😃
 
Why is it that Traditionalists are the only ones expected to provide their Catholic bona fides by slavering over the novus ordo?
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You’re assuming something that wasn’t said. It’s quite possible that he/she already knows how to answer the modernists and therefore didn’t address them in this post.
 
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