How to respond to traditionalist catholics about their attitude towards the new mass

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You’re assuming something that wasn’t said. It’s quite possible that he/she already knows how to answer the modernists and therefore didn’t address them in this post.
I’m assuming, madam, that what was said was what was meant.
I also get mad because they **[lovely traditionalist friends] **say they would never attend a new mass. This attitude, I know can lead to sin.
Which says quite plainly and succinctly that Traditionalists are expected and even required to attend the new mass and if they don’t, it leads to sin. And my question is the logical extension of that: Is such an expectation to be placed upon Eastern Rite Catholics as well?

Don’t obfuscate. Just answer.
 
Dr. Bombay!!! Thank you.

I am shamed and surprised.

So in end effect is this what you are saying?

We can have a valid STRONG preference for a certain type of legitimate mass and not be in the wrong, no matter what mass the present Pope celebrates.
 
Dr. Bombay!!! Thank you.

I am shamed and surprised.

So in end effect is this what you are saying?
Not really sure what this question means. Please rephrase.
We can have a valid STRONG preference for a certain type of legitimate mass and not be in the wrong, no matter what mass the present Pope celebrates.
Yes. Which seems to make your original post moot, correct?
 
I’m assuming, madam, that what was said was what was meant.

I don’t believe that the OP said “that Traditionalists are the only ones expected to provide their Catholic bona fides by slavering over the novus ordo?”
Which says quite plainly and succinctly that Traditionalists are expected and even required to attend the new mass and if they don’t, it leads to sin. And my question is the logical extension of that: Is such an expectation to be placed upon Eastern Rite Catholics as well?
 
The N.O. was questioned by Cardinals and theologians in the Ottaviani Intervention. Why are we not allowed?
 
The N.O. was questioned by Cardinals and theologians in the Ottaviani Intervention. Why are we not allowed?
Well, simply put, we ARE allowed. Afterall, we have an intellect and a will of our own…😛 We are NOT, however, allowed to pontificate on the matter and then act as if we know more than the Magesterium. Yes, Cardinals and theologians raised issues. The Holy Spirit, for now, has spoken. To paraphrase my original reply and the responses of others: **all we are saying is that the Pauline Mass MUST be regarded as being as valid as any other Catholic liturgy. **

Remember that some Oriental liturgies do not even contain the words of consecration, as such, but the Eucharistic sacrifice is accomplished and the consecration most certainly takes place. Catholics have ALWAYS regarded those liturgies as valid and worthy of admiration. And that’s a rather profound difference between liturgies… in light of that, surely the Novus Ordo doesn’t seem so offensive to you…
 
And my question is the logical extension of that: Is such an expectation to be placed upon Eastern Rite Catholics as well?

Don’t obfuscate. Just answer.
I get your point but Eastern Catholics are not part of the Latin rite.
 
Remember that some Oriental liturgies do not even contain the words of consecration, as such, but the Eucharistic sacrifice is accomplished and the consecration most certainly takes place.
What are some of those Oriental liturgies? I’d like to learn more about them.
 
One point that I think many non-trad Catholics don’t get is that this is about more than just the Liturgy. False ecuminism and indifrentism, watered down moral teaching at the pulpit, redefinition of hierarchical structure of the Church, etc. are all issues of great concern to Traditionalist Catholics. It’s not just a nostalgic desire for the Latin.
 
A close reading of Bugnini’s book on his work on the Roman Rite will reveal a frequent theme.

Bugnini was very interested in what the Eastern Rites did in their liturgies. He frequently cites a novel practice he introduced into the Roman Rite with the note that it is “based” on some Eastern practice.

This leads to what Lefebvre once called the “bastardization” of rites (in French, “bastard” has different connotations as an adjective than in English, it should be remembered). In other words, part of the fabrication Bugnini enacted was taking pieces from different rites, usages, and traditions and then saying everything was laudable because so-and-so did it.

Of course the Church had done things LIKE this before Bugnini, but certainly NOT in the span of about 5 years under the leadership of 1 man who answered only to the pope and who was given the widest possible latitude to do what he wished. Great reading is when Bugnini complains about prelates on his committees who challenged him. When in doubt he always plays the “Holy Spirit Card”: so-and-so wasn’t open to the Holy Spirit, so-and-so was “overly pious”, so-and-so was “overly academic”, so-and-so didn’t “understand” the liturgy…it gets dangerously close at times to the notion that because Paul had a direct line to God, and Paul had appointed Annibale, Annibale had a direct line.
 
One point that I think many non-trad Catholics don’t get is that this is about more than just the Liturgy. False ecuminism and indifrentism, watered down moral teaching at the pulpit, redefinition of hierarchical structure of the Church, etc. are all issues of great concern to Traditionalist Catholics. It’s not just a nostalgic desire for the Latin.
Exactly. It’s not just a case of steam engine preservation.

Moderately traditional people like me think that basically the church took a wrong turning in the sixties. However there is a temptation to turn to reactionary ideas as a source of easy answers. Any shift in direction also needs very careful handling if it is not to turn into a split, or to turn the majority into non-practising Catholics.

So I am very reluctant to criticise bishops who restrict Tridentine Masses too strongly.
 
I don’t believe that the OP said “that Traditionalists are the only ones expected to provide their Catholic bona fides by slavering over the novus ordo?”

Also, wouldn’t you think it quite incorrect to say that one would NEVER attend a Novus Ordo? Maybe I am sensitive to this because I have traditionalist friends who really would never, for any reason attend a Novus Ordo. They would skip their Sunday obligation if they couldn’t attend a TLM. So, yes, this can lead to sin.
I’m not going to play worst case scenario. “If all the planets were aligned on the fifth Sunday in June in an odd numbered year and the only Mass available was being said by Fr. McBrien, wouldn’t you attend?” That would be a Plurium Interrogationum Fallacy. See, I take notes in class, especially from brilliant young philosphers.
The OP was saying that he has to defend the validity of the Novus Ordo Mass. He didn’t say that he had to have all of his friends prefer it or even love it.

So, marcsababa, one can have strong preferences for the TLM and be perfectly fine. However, one cannot question the validity of the Novus Ordo in general. This would be equal for any rite of the Catholic Church.
Now who’s assuming something that wasn’t said? Never once was it even implied by the OP that his “lovely traditionalist friends” were questioning the validity of the no. It was stated that a preference of rite can lead to sin.
 
I get your point but Eastern Catholics are not part of the Latin rite.
Yes, but they still need to be interrogated as to their feelings toward the novus ordo. Because, after all, it is the Mass the Pope says. And we can’t have Catholics questioning anything the Pope does. That wouldn’t be proper.
 
If you are so logical, dear friend, then how can you attend a ST. Pius the X-gathering?

I call you dear friend, because I am a fellow latin Mass attendee, but I am not as antagonistic about it all.

LeFevre (for whom I have been inspired now to pray after seeing that gorgeous angelic face) stepped outside the Church by his own actions. Any follower of his steps outside as well. Even if you are not a cedevacantist, or “holier than the pope” type, why go to the ST. Pius X-mass?

The teaching authority of the church and its power to distribute sacraments is directly from God so long as its actions come through the succession of Bishops. With Levbre that is broken.
…hmmmm, I think it is the other way about, Archbishop Levebre stayed within the boundaries of the Church as established by our Lord Jesus Christ and all not the other way about… so he disobeyed in ordaining 4 bishops OUT OF FEAR for what was and is still happening in the Church not out of some holier than thou attitude…what he most wanted to do was to live a quiet and contemplative retirement , God rest his noble soul!..OH yeah I attend an SPPX chapel, and pray for His Holiness Pope Benedict xvi daily.
 
From today’s Zenit mailing:

Q: “Quo Primum” is a papal bull decreed by Pope St. Pius V on July 14, 1570, which set in stone for all time the exactness of the holy sacrifice of the Mass to be said in the mother tongue of the Church. To quote his instruction: “*t shall be unlawful henceforth and forever throughout the Christian world to sing or to read Masses according to any formula other than that of this Missal published by Us; …” Another: “… which shall have the force of law in perpetuity, We order and enjoin under pain of Our displeasure that nothing be added to Our newly published Missal, nothing omitted therefrom, and nothing whatsoever altered therein.” Another: “In the case of those resident in other parts of the world it shall be excommunication ‘latae sententiae’ and all other penalties at Our discretion …” Finally: “Should any person venture to do so, let him understand that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.” In the light of the foregoing: 1) Can an ancient papal bull be amended, changed, modified, abrogated, etc., by future popes? If yes, then what are the conditions? 2) Is the Mass of Pope Paul VI licit and valid? – A.D., Carindale, Australia

A: A papal bull . . . is a solemn instrument that popes use for various questions such as doctrinal decisions, canonizations, disciplinary questions, jubilees and the like. Only occasionally have they been used for the liturgy.

A bull’s influence on later popes depends on the nature of its content and not the legal force of the document as such.

[Certain] norms are evidently tied to the circumstances of time and place and may be adjusted, attenuated or abrogated by future popes as situations change.

St. Pius V’s bull “Quo Primum” is above all a legal document although it also contains some doctrinal elements. As such it is not intended to be definitive in the same way as a doctrinal definition would be and would not bind St. Pius V himself or future popes if they decided to further fine-tune the missal.

The saintly Pope’s concern was to ensure as much unity as possible for the liturgy in a time when such unity was sorely needed. Even so, the same bull contains a clause exempting any Church which had its own ordo more than 200 years old. Many local Churches could have availed of this concession but most preferred to adopt the new missal for practical reasons.

Some religious orders and some dioceses such as Lyon in France and Milan in Italy did opt to legitimately maintain their own rite. Thus expressions such as “it shall be unlawful henceforth and forever throughout the Christian world to sing or to read Masses according to any formula other than that of this Missal published by Us” cannot be interpreted in an absolutely literal sense.

Likewise, legal expressions such as “which shall have the force of law in perpetuity, We order and enjoin under pain of Our displeasure that nothing be added to Our newly published Missal, nothing omitted therefrom, and nothing whatsoever altered therein” cannot be literally interpreted as binding on possible later actions of Pope St. Pius V or upon his successors. The strictures fall only upon those who act without due authority.

If it were otherwise, then Pope St. Pius V would have excommunicated himself a couple of years after publishing “Quo Primum” when he added the feast of Our Lady of the Rosary to the missal following the Battle of Lepanto in 1571, not to mention Pope Clement XI who canonized Pius V in 1712, thus altering the missal.

Among the many other Popes who would have thus incurred “the wrath of Almighty God and of the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul” would have been St. Pius X for reforming the calendar, Pius XI who added the first new preface in centuries for the feast of Christ the King, Pius XII for completely revamping the rites of Holy Week as well as simplifying the rubrics, and Blessed John XXIII for adding St. Joseph’s name to the Roman Canon.

Certainly, the reform undertaken under the Servant of God Pope Paul VI ranged more widely than anything done under earlier Popes since St. Pius V. But Paul VI acted with the same papal authority as all of them.

As the Roman proverb goes: “Popes die, the Pope never.” Each individual pontiff – saint or sinner though he be – holds the same authority, granted by Christ, to bind and loose, forgive or retain, so that the Lord’s flock may be fed through the centuries.

It is for this reason that, except in matters of faith and morals, a pope’s disciplinary decrees in matters such as the non-essential elements of liturgical rites are never “set in stone” and can be changed by a subsequent Supreme Pontiff whenever he believes that the duty of feeding Christ’s flock requires it.

Finally, the answer to the second question should be already clear, the so-called Mass of Paul VI is both valid and licit.*
 
I’m not going to play worst case scenario. “If all the planets were aligned on the fifth Sunday in June in an odd numbered year and the only Mass available was being said by Fr. McBrien, wouldn’t you attend?” That would be a Plurium Interrogationum Fallacy. See, I take notes in class, especially from brilliant young philosphers.

There is no TLM where they live and they don’t go if they can’t drive 2ish hours to the nearest one.
Now who’s assuming something that wasn’t said? Never once was it even implied by the OP that his “lovely traditionalist friends” were questioning the validity of the no. It was stated that a preference of rite can lead to sin.
 
The N.O. was questioned by Cardinals and theologians in the Ottaviani Intervention. Why are we not allowed?
There’s a difference between questioning whether it’s a good idea and questioning its validity.
 
One point that I think many non-trad Catholics don’t get is that this is about more than just the Liturgy. False ecuminism and indifrentism, watered down moral teaching at the pulpit, redefinition of hierarchical structure of the Church, etc. are all issues of great concern to Traditionalist Catholics. It’s not just a nostalgic desire for the Latin.
I get that perfectly. So does Fr. Fessio, Mother Angelica, Mother Teresa, the Holy Father, etc. Luckily for me, none of this is found in my church. That’s what I’d like to see at all churches.
 
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