X
Xantippe
Guest
So, if one sees a drowning man, one has no duty to so much as throw in a life preserver from the nice dry pool deck?
Lovely.
- Status
Lovely.
R
Rau
Guest
Apparently it is permissible! And it’s ok to accept the assistance.
E
EasterJoy
Guest
“…does not make it immoral to offer…non-sacrificial assistance…”
Why is non-sacrificial a necessary modifier? That implies it is immoral to practice self-sacrifice.
S
starshiptrooper
Guest
First, you are operating under the double assumption that there is a significant amount of women worth committing to and that socio-political norms surrounding marriage are not biased against men. Both are wrong.
Second, I have seen older guys have success with younger women without spending money. It turns out that confidence, physical fitness, experience, and a “I don’t give a dang” attitude works quite well, even better than money.
X
Xantippe
Guest
The US norm is marriage with a 2-year age gap. A bigger gap isn’t all that common, at least not among first-timers.
This is historically very consistent over the last century. Even looking back to 1890, the average age gap was only 4 years.
census.gov/hhes/families/files/graphics/MS-2.pdf
This is (interestingly enough), consistent with something called the Western European marriage pattern, which has been a thing for several hundred years now:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_European_marriage_pattern
“The shift toward this “Western European Marriage Pattern” does not have a clear beginning, but it certainly had become established by the end of the sixteenth century on most of the shores of the North Sea. A marriage pattern where couples married comparatively late in life (and especially late for the bride), on average in the middle twenties after and setting up a nuclear household, all of this preceded by time working as servants or apprentices. Also, a significant proportion of women married after their twenties and 10–20% of women never married.”
“The comparatively late age at marriage for women and the small age gap between spouses is rather unusual; women married as adults rather than as dependents, often worked before marriage and brought some skills into the marriage, were less likely to be exhausted by constant pregnancy, and were about the same age as their husbands.”
S
starshiptrooper
Guest
It was a different time with different dynamics. The big bad patriarchy was still in force, women were still primarily wives and homemakers, and family law treated men far more fairly than now.
To answer your first question, on a personal level, the second-hander weaponizes guilt. On a political level, they vote against the productive. To answer your second query, Ayn Rand’s ethics are based on rational self-interest. Your duty is to yourself with your happiness as the goal and your life as the standard of value. I can expand on those points if necessary.
Look at how she defines the term. As I pointed out earlier, Ayn Rand is the most strawmanned yet least read philosopher ever.
aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/sacrifice.html
R
Rau
Guest
Is there any reason to believe that adherence to this system in this life will guide you to happiness in the next?
X
Xantippe
Guest
…or this one, for that matter?
Is it the case that objectivists are happier than the general public? Or (and this is going to be a much higher hurdle to clear) happier than practicing religious people?
dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2886974/Study-Religious-people-happier-life-satisfaction-others.html
It might be (very ironically) the case that people whose main focus is their own happiness may be much less happy than ordinary people.
X
Xantippe
Guest
I have to say that even just from a practical point of view, it’s much easier to figure out “what should I do in this particular situation?” rather than “what will make me haaaaaaappy.” (Giving a nod to the manosphere here–those guys are always complaining about how women talk about being “unhaaaaaappy” but are never any closer to being happy no matter what their husbands do for them. I think that that’s not a fair judgment on women in general, but the guys are obviously correct that people who chase happiness tend to be very unhappy people.)
Once you are living with a spouse and children, “what will make me happy” is not even really feasible as a way of life. When, in the middle of the night, Baby Girl wakes up screaming or when Baby Girl needs a diaper change, “what will make me happy?” just doesn’t provide any helpful (name removed by moderator)ut to the situation. I can skip that question and do just as well dealing with the situation. And no, that doesn’t mean being a doormat or adopting the Giving Tree lifestyle (and I think I have a fairly solid rep on CAF of being against that), but it does mean that when figuring out “what should I do in this particular situation?” my druthers are only one set of (name removed by moderator)uts in figuring out what to do, and by no means the most important.
You’re not going to find a lot of objectivists among good parents (or even OK parents).
Starshiptrooper, come to think of it, would you even want an objectivist wife for yourself or for your children to have an objectivist mother? Does that sound nice? I don’t know if you’re a Big Bang Theory fan, but I think it would be a lot like having Leonard’s mother.
bigbangtheory.wikia.com/wiki/Beverly_Hofstadter
Once you are living with a spouse and children, “what will make me happy” is not even really feasible as a way of life. When, in the middle of the night, Baby Girl wakes up screaming or when Baby Girl needs a diaper change, “what will make me happy?” just doesn’t provide any helpful (name removed by moderator)ut to the situation. I can skip that question and do just as well dealing with the situation. And no, that doesn’t mean being a doormat or adopting the Giving Tree lifestyle (and I think I have a fairly solid rep on CAF of being against that), but it does mean that when figuring out “what should I do in this particular situation?” my druthers are only one set of (name removed by moderator)uts in figuring out what to do, and by no means the most important.
You’re not going to find a lot of objectivists among good parents (or even OK parents).
Starshiptrooper, come to think of it, would you even want an objectivist wife for yourself or for your children to have an objectivist mother? Does that sound nice? I don’t know if you’re a Big Bang Theory fan, but I think it would be a lot like having Leonard’s mother.
bigbangtheory.wikia.com/wiki/Beverly_Hofstadter
E
EasterJoy
Guest
No way Ayn Rand says the Son of God should become a human being and suffer death for the sake of sinners. No way someone as talented as Mother Teresa spends her life dragging dirty people off the street so they can die their inevitable deaths in dignity.
Nonsense. No way you can rationalize her words to say that. She would have skinned you alive for that, except your skin wouldn’t be worth her bother.
X
Xantippe
Guest
This is getting way off-topic, but just imagine what it would be like to have an objectivist spouse.
Normal Him: I’ve been thinking about you all day! Let’s go to bed early tonight!
Objectivist Her: My happiness is not the means to any end. It is the end. It is its own goal. It is its own purpose…I’m planning on staying up until 2 having arguments with strangers on the internet instead and then I’m going to sleep in tomorrow while you do yard work.
Alternately:
Normal Her: Could you hold the baby while I take a shower?
Objectivist Him: My happiness is not the means to any end. It is the end. It is its own goal. It is its own purpose…Can’t you shower with the baby? I need to kill these monsters.
Normal Him: I’ve been thinking about you all day! Let’s go to bed early tonight!
Objectivist Her: My happiness is not the means to any end. It is the end. It is its own goal. It is its own purpose…I’m planning on staying up until 2 having arguments with strangers on the internet instead and then I’m going to sleep in tomorrow while you do yard work.
Alternately:
Normal Her: Could you hold the baby while I take a shower?
Objectivist Him: My happiness is not the means to any end. It is the end. It is its own goal. It is its own purpose…Can’t you shower with the baby? I need to kill these monsters.
D
DarkLight
Guest
You sure you’re not talking about any of us here?
X
Xantippe
Guest
Left to my own devices, that might happen, but I normally am done internetting by midnight.You sure you’re not talking about any of us here?
S
starshiptrooper
Guest
If God does not want a person who works hard, is always trying to better himself, lives with integrity, and does not harm others, why would I want God?
Fair enough, but she would not prevent it either. Do whatever you want.
You are confusing hedonism and living in the short term with rational self-interest.
X
Xantippe
Guest
I think, in practice, that “rational self-interest” is going to be very tricky to define and practice. I feel like it’s actually a lot easier to figure out “what should I do now?” rather than “what is in my rational self-interest?”
It would be very easy to accidentally follow rational self-interest to a stunted, selfish, lonely life.
I just don’t see how objectivism could be compatible with having a happy marriage or a happy family life. If you have any examples to share, go for it–but note that Ayn Rand herself had no children, and her personal life was kind of terrible.
“Mr. Branden was 24 when he and the 49-year-old Rand began an affair in 1954. Rand insisted that each of their spouses know of the relationship, but otherwise it was kept secret.”
“Rand told her husband, O’Connor, that he would have to vacate their apartment twice a week while she and Mr. Branden had their trysts. O’Connor began drinking heavily. Mr. Branden’s marriage suffered as well.”
washingtonpost.com/entertainment/books/nathaniel-branden-lover-and-disciple-of-novelist-ayn-rand-dies-at-84/2014/12/09/f1458d7e-7fca-11e4-81fd-8c4814dfa9d7_story.html
S
starshiptrooper
Guest
Rand defines happiness as achieving your values. If I chose to have children, I am aware that it is a commitment for the long run. The process may be unpleasant at times but the result is worth it. Just like lifting weights or running.
Of course not. returnofkings.com/71593/how-the-big-bang-theory-and-other-mainstream-sitcoms-lie-to-men
As long as Mrs. Starshiptrooper has a right-wing view overall, I am not particularly concerned about whether it comes from Locke, or Rand.
E
EasterJoy
Guest
Why would I want God if…? Have you stopped to think why God would want you? Really! Why would God create a universe based on rational self-interest when there was nothing whatsoever in it for God?
You might be able to rationalize that “Love thy neighbor as yourself” can be scratched out of rational self-interest. I can see that argued on paper, although I do not see how it works in practice. How do you find “You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind” in it, though? It isn’t there. It cannot be there.
What do you have to offer God? Nothing. How is giving you anything in the “rational self-interest” of God? Nothing. If you cannot love someone who has no conceivable way to make a return on your love for that person, how is it possible to have the mind of Christ then? It is impossible. There is no logical way to reconcile rational self-interest with Christianity, then. That is what is meant by the idea that Christ crucified as the ultimate and pinnacle of good news being “foolishness to the Greeks.” (1 Cor. 1:23)
*If there is any encouragement in Christ, any solace in love, any participation in the Spirit, any compassion and mercy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, with the same love, united in heart, thinking one thing. Do nothing out of selfishness or out of vainglory; rather, humbly regard others as more important than yourselves, each looking out not for his own interests, but everyone for those of others.
Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus,
Who, though he was in the form of God,
did not regard equality with God something to be grasped.
Rather, he emptied himself,
taking the form of a slave,
coming in human likeness;
and found human in appearance,
he humbled himself,
becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross.*
Phil 2:1-8
Ayn Rand was very intolerant of sloppy thinking. It takes some very loosy-goosy thinking to even attempt to reconcile objectivism with Christianity. Why? The two views rest on different axiomatic starting points. If logic is applied, they lead to very different intellectual destinations. There is no way to get around that, except to refuse to think about it, an option entirely forbidden by the demands of Ayn Rand made on her followers.
You may get to the point where you see that self-sacrifice is the ultimate in doing what is good for yourself. You will not get there if you do not let go of Ayn Rand. She and her philosophy absolutely and unequivocally refuse to go there. You have to choose whether to follow Ayn Rand or Christ, then. It is impossible to follow both, as neither will permit it.
S
starshiptrooper
Guest
I am not going to analyze the motives of God. You are talking about an infinite entity that is incomprehensible.
I wish Zoltan Cobalt was still around, he was also influenced by Objectivism but he was way better at defending it.
At the end of the day, I am rather cynical about most people and would prefer to be left alone by them. The Bible tells us to love our neighbor, I can a better neighbor if I have a good fence.
I wish Zoltan Cobalt was still around, he was also influenced by Objectivism but he was way better at defending it.
At the end of the day, I am rather cynical about most people and would prefer to be left alone by them. The Bible tells us to love our neighbor, I can a better neighbor if I have a good fence.
D
DarkLight
Guest
The Bible explicitly tells us to attempt to be like Christ, who was God. I think that’s a pretty clear sign we do need to look at the motives of God, and that it’s comprehensible enough that we can reasonably be expected to imitate Him.
X
Xantippe
Guest
So, you think you can live your way and have things exactly your way and then one day flip the switch and be a loving husband and self-sacrificing father for the rest of your life?
To me, that sounds like preparing for a marathon by having a dozen Krispy Kreme a day habit. I just don’t see how you get from here to there.
As to Big Bang Theory, I gave you a perfect example of a cold, judgy, selfish Randian-style mom. It is a very fair question–how could somebody like that be a decent mother? Quick answer–they can’t.
- Status