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AClaire11
Guest
That was my initial reaction, to the bolded, as well. Definitely brought on some flashbacks to the abusive relationship I was in during high school.
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Xantippe
Guest
And even just taking it down from that extreme level (people ignoring “no” being a red flag for future sexual assault), what kind of marriage is one ever going to have with anybody (of whatever sex) who does not understand and respect the word “no”?
It’s exhausting and annoying to deal with a person who believes that if he or she just bulldozes his or her significant other hard enough, he or she is always going to get their way. Ugh.
It’s exhausting and annoying to deal with a person who believes that if he or she just bulldozes his or her significant other hard enough, he or she is always going to get their way. Ugh.
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Sarcelle
Guest
Bulldozing someone so you can get your own way is called bullying.
When the target of the bullying finally decides to stand up for themselves, the bully gets surprised and says “Why do you act that way? I was just being a nice guy/girl?”
That’s called gaslighting.
I think a lot of passive aggressive people have co-opted the word nice to justify their behavior.
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AClaire11
Guest
Yes! And pestering someone until they agree to date you is harassment. I don’t know of any healthy relationships that started that way.
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BlueEyedLady
Guest
I’m not going to quote Chev’s response to Xan because it was so long. But I have one very important question:
While insisting that it shouldn’t be alarming for women to be approached by strangers, or for men to continue to pursue after being told no, and that women are wrong for being scared in these situations…when, as a 5’2, 125 lbs, woman should I be concerned? Virtually every man I encounter is bigger than me, and even the very few who aren’t are still likely stronger.
I have absolutely no way of knowing who means me harm, but anyone could. All I can do is judge behavior. If you’re trying to flirt at an inappropriate time or place, or saying gross, inappropriate things, I can’t assume you have proper boundaries when it comes to my physical safety. Likewise, if you have problems with the word ‘no’. If you act like someone with no regard limits, that’s how you’ll be treated. You can’t tell women not to be afraid of this behavior, because it is objectively scary.
I’m not going to hang around and make a weird guy prove he’s a rapist, or worse. By the time a weapon is out, it’s too late. And I wouldn’t recommend any other woman give these guys the time of day either.
I’m really sick of hearing that men are all treated as rapists. Taking precautions against crime is never seen as a bad thing, until it’s rape. No one is offended by locked doors, clubs on car steering wheels, shredding personal documents before throwing them away, or looking over your shoulder before punching in your pin. It’s understood that not everyone is a criminal, but if even one person is, it can ruin your life. Same with rape. Not all men are rapists, but I’m a vulnerable target so I take precautions. No one is entitled to niceties from anyone at the expense of that person’s safety or security. I’m totally the girl who crosses the road if I’m walking at night and someone is up ahead. No apologies for that.
While insisting that it shouldn’t be alarming for women to be approached by strangers, or for men to continue to pursue after being told no, and that women are wrong for being scared in these situations…when, as a 5’2, 125 lbs, woman should I be concerned? Virtually every man I encounter is bigger than me, and even the very few who aren’t are still likely stronger.
I have absolutely no way of knowing who means me harm, but anyone could. All I can do is judge behavior. If you’re trying to flirt at an inappropriate time or place, or saying gross, inappropriate things, I can’t assume you have proper boundaries when it comes to my physical safety. Likewise, if you have problems with the word ‘no’. If you act like someone with no regard limits, that’s how you’ll be treated. You can’t tell women not to be afraid of this behavior, because it is objectively scary.
I’m not going to hang around and make a weird guy prove he’s a rapist, or worse. By the time a weapon is out, it’s too late. And I wouldn’t recommend any other woman give these guys the time of day either.
I’m really sick of hearing that men are all treated as rapists. Taking precautions against crime is never seen as a bad thing, until it’s rape. No one is offended by locked doors, clubs on car steering wheels, shredding personal documents before throwing them away, or looking over your shoulder before punching in your pin. It’s understood that not everyone is a criminal, but if even one person is, it can ruin your life. Same with rape. Not all men are rapists, but I’m a vulnerable target so I take precautions. No one is entitled to niceties from anyone at the expense of that person’s safety or security. I’m totally the girl who crosses the road if I’m walking at night and someone is up ahead. No apologies for that.
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Sarcelle
Guest
For the men who think that women should not be afraid of men who do not respect women’s boundaries, think about this.
If a man asks a woman who says no because she thinks he might be dangerous to her, all he has lost is a date.
Now if a woman in spite of her misgivings says yes to a man and he turns out to be dangerous, she could lose her life.
I lock my car and house and shred my documents. I put in passwords on my online accounts not because I think everyone around me is a criminal but some are criminals. I also do not go to strange places alone with men not because I think all men are rapists but some are. It only takes once to be victimized.
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Rau
Guest
The stranger coming down the footpath in the dark is one thing. The persistent guy at the bus stop is another. And the guy (call him Chevy) in the office down the corridor who’s worked here for a few years, socialises with the team, seems respected and liked…and now shows an interest in “me”…is a different context again. Declining his offer of a movie is not akin to a “no means no” situation. * Sure he might ask again. And that’s fine. Both parties guage where the line is to be drawn.
The “rapey” interpretation of Chevy’s words: "Some of the best things that have happened to some people have happened over their initial objections, by their own words. " did not arise for me till somebody pointed it out. The interpretation likely to be placed on the words certainly is influenced by circumstances and one’s personal nature. I think the innocuous interpretation is by far the more widely applicable (and evidently his meaning).*
The “rapey” interpretation of Chevy’s words: "Some of the best things that have happened to some people have happened over their initial objections, by their own words. " did not arise for me till somebody pointed it out. The interpretation likely to be placed on the words certainly is influenced by circumstances and one’s personal nature. I think the innocuous interpretation is by far the more widely applicable (and evidently his meaning).*
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AClaire11
Guest
When a bunch of different women are all saying that they feel harassed and/or unsettled when pestered by random guys on public transportation, maybe it’s time to reconsider instead of telling them to get over it. In my experience, it’s almost universal that women are creeped out and uneasy when strange men won’t leave them alone on the bus. Don’t be dismissive.
I asked my husband his thoughts and he said that if a girl says no and that she’s busy, wait a week and try again, but after the third time, take the hint and move on. And not to bother people on public transportation because girls will think you’re a creep or weirdo.
I asked my husband his thoughts and he said that if a girl says no and that she’s busy, wait a week and try again, but after the third time, take the hint and move on. And not to bother people on public transportation because girls will think you’re a creep or weirdo.
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starshiptrooper
Guest
Oddly enough, we agree. I am currently helping several female relatives to obtain their ccw permits. Apparently they are worried about the influx of Islamic 'refugees " after what happened in Europe. Sure, they are not all terrorist fanatics who want Sharia Law and rape any woman dressed “inappropriately” but it only takes one to ruin your day.
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chevalier
Guest
Even a man a couple inches shorter is likely to have a better respiratory system than I do and is quite likely to have been in more fights and/or more recently, especially any random street thug. Somehow, I don’t really see danger all around me. Even if I did, I would simply grab something for protection rather than seeing everybody around me as a criminal until proven otherwise.
Oh yes, and if I voted Trump you could assume I was an anti-Semite by the some logic. The very suggestion is insulting, and the moment you made it any prospect of friendship, acquaintanceship or decent working relationship of any sort would be decidedly over.
It takes about 20 years of exposure to constant fear rhetoric and one’s own willing collaboration with it to be able to conclude, from ill-chosen time for something like a flirty comment, that one’s fellow human being would be willing to commit sexual assault or plain physical assault/battery.
Rather, what you’re saying is an objective hyperbole. If you want to live in fear, that’s your choice, not mine.
And the suggestion that someone who says ‘still not interested in having a date?’ is somehow close to a rapist, mentally or otherwise, is one of the most insulting, uncharitable and completely unjust and unwarranted things one could say. Again, you’re inflicting that mindset on yourself, it’s not of my doing, nor anyone else’s.
Perhaps because there’s a good reason for it to bother you. Some such thing as conscience, for example.
Taking precautions is one thing, theft, or battery, or especially rape, but making sweeping conclusions about individual people and judging them, that’s something completely different. And slander or libel is actually still a crime too in many jurisdictions in the world.
And for good reason. Nobody who waits until you fishing passing by or turning away calls you a probable rapist in your face. Simply walking away or not engaging in conversation would be similar. But thinking of a man as a probable rapist simply because he told you a compliment you didn’t particularly appreciate at a timing you didn’t find the most fitting, that’s rash judgment. It’s also slander when it is actually said out loud.
Wrong. Charity and even justice requires if not some basic politeness (it already does), then at least not going about insulting random people, or specific people with random suggestions, for that matter.
Giving someone very obvious criminal treatment on a theoretical notion of some very tentative remote danger is excessive. It no longer is protection of one’s own safety. It’s an obsession that leads one to mistreat others, treat them uncharitably and to them injustice.
Nobody talked about having to apologize for that. But if you can’t see the difference between crossing the road at night and saying the things you’ve just said (and felt fully justified in saying), then I can’t help you.
Which is good enough for concealed carry (like any reason is needed) but not good enough for announcing to people you’ve got a gun and are ready to use it the moment you start not liking something about their face or voice or whatever.Oddly enough, we agree. I am currently helping several female relatives to obtain their ccw permits. Apparently they are worried about the influx of Islamic 'refugees " after what happened in Europe. Sure, they are not all terrorist fanatics who want Sharia Law and rape any woman dressed “inappropriately” but it only takes one to ruin your day.
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chevalier
Guest
With all due respect, and I don’t mean this unkindly, that’s wrong thinking. A man, imagine that for a moment, or a stranger of either sex, is a fellow human being just like you are. Regardless of gender, someone who tries to strike up a conversation or shows some interest in you, romantic or not (and in most cases one just can’t tell), is not automatically ‘pestering’ you. Thinking it’s pestering just because that person happens to be of this or that sex is just like thinking it’s pestering just because that person happens to be of this or that particular race or ethnicity.
Everybody is. I certainly am whenever a woman does that to me. The point: ‘won’t leave them alone’ is not the same as ‘try to strike up a conversation with them’. To think someone a creep for the latter is only testimony to the sad state of civilization we live in, where everybody hates everybody, everybody’s on his own, and everybody looks for no. 1.
Of course, no disagreement there whatsoever, no reason for one. But, a lot of existing relationships between people actually start from doing just the opposite thing. Or at least start from trying the second or third time rather than the first — which is all I’m saying. And I’ll continue to say it, no matter the verbal abuse this incurs, because it’s simply a fact of life that everybody can easily find to be true, regardless of it being politically incorrect to even mention because of the oppressive ideology we live in.
See above re: ‘pester’. If a man’s attention comes as a bother to you — and for that matter if a woman’s attention comes as a bother to a man, e.g. to me — than one can’t really help that, and the location or timing doesn’t matter. Contempt for the opposite sex is the one thing that matters.
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chevalier
Guest
Yes, and:
- Not everybody’s gauge is the same.
- The same person’s gauge is not even the same every day.
- The same person’s gauge is not the same with all other people.
Over initial objections = suggesting the same thing again despite the suggestion has already been rejected once, not physically dragging someone out on a date. This much should be obvious.
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DarkLight
Guest
Location or timing definitely matters. For an extreme example, stopping a woman who’s walking by herself on a dark street at night is unlikely to produce positive results, and highly likely to creep her out. (Honestly, I doubt a larger guy stopping a smaller man on a dark street at night would be all that welcomed either.) More generally, bothering someone who’s obviously doing something else is quite likely to annoy people.
At some level, a guy’s desire to have a romantic relationship doesn’t override a woman’s desire to be left alone. If it annoys 90 women out of 100 and works on 1 woman out of 100, that’s probably not a good idea
At some level, a guy’s desire to have a romantic relationship doesn’t override a woman’s desire to be left alone. If it annoys 90 women out of 100 and works on 1 woman out of 100, that’s probably not a good idea
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chevalier
Guest
Yes.
But in telling him ‘because I think you are a potential rapist’ rather than ‘because I don’t feel safe’ or preferably ‘because I don’t feel comfortable’, he has lost dignity.
Figuratively speaking, of course, because a horrible lack of manners in person A cannot actually deprive person B of dignity.
And recent posters here err in thinking that since it’s but necessary and obviously morally acceptable to protect oneself and be cautious, then it’s also morally acceptable to 1) jump to conclusions about individual people on zero proof; and 2) voice those wild suspicions and accusations to one’s heart’s content, especially right in someone’s face, with zero regard for his good name or feelings or anything.
And for good reason. There could be no dispute about that.
Not just some, but every level.
However, a woman’s desire to be ‘left alone’ (one would prefer ‘some privacy’) does not give her a licence to be gratuitously rude.
There are various moments when I don’t feel like talking to people or simply have something urgent to do. I have every right to decline company. However, I have no right to act or talk like leper has just touched me. Or criminal.
It’s been a while since I last saw so much contempt for one sex in one place.
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AClaire11
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If I didn’t mean pestering, I wouldn’t have said it. I am specifically talking about men who continue to bother women who are obviously uncomfortable. As many are, since it’s very odd to start talking to strangers on transit. It is also charitable to notice and respect those social cues. There may be regional differences at work here. Perhaps where you live, it is not strange to start talking to strangers on the bus, but in the cities I’ve lived in, it is and the ones who do talk to you are usually either mentally ill or very aggressive and creepy.
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chevalier
Guest
There are cultural differences, sure, but there are also individual differences, not to mention that cultural differences often exist within the same society. For example just because I live in a different country doesn’t mean you wouldn’t find a whole spectrum of different outlooks in yours.
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AClaire11
Guest
I agree. I mainly have lived in large metro areas in the mid Atlantic region. Maybe things are different in the South, for example, where people are more outwardly friendly.
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Rau
Guest
Which - let’s be honest - is a very sad commentary on the cities in which you’ve lived.
We used to note some people had gregarious personalities and that was fine. But now? They’d only initiate a chat if “mentally ill, very aggressive and creepy”.
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TheAmazingGrace
Guest
This. A man is free to try and strike up a conversation, but if the woman is unresponsive or visibly uncomfortable, common courtesy requires that he stop speaking.
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chevalier
Guest
Did you actually mean ‘stop speaking’ — as in shut up mid-sentence and go crawl under a rock and die or something just as good — rather than simply stop trying to have a conversation?
Wouldn’t like to jump to conclusions.
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