How to take a stand on illegal immigration?

[AaronK88]

How do you guys view this issue and express your opinions on it?

A large part of me believes in cultural hegemony within a nation, and I know that illegals undermine this. However, an even greater part of me realizes that these people have families, and most come from countries that suffer under poor conditions and corruption. I am by no means pro-deportation, I believe that solution is inhumane and does not take into consideration human dignity. But I am not pro-legalized citizenship of illegals either. I believe in a middle ground, one where they can stay here and work but where they also don’t get benefits such as voting.

What do you guys think, and what does the Catholic Church think? I am a fairly new Catholic and have not heard a whole lot about this issue. Thanks and God bless!

 

[kms123]

IMO they should apply to come in legally and if they stay it must be the legal way. Breaking the law is breaking the law.

However IMO if they need food and water I would help until they get sent back.

 

[rwoehmke]

Speaking of cultural hegemony. Many of us still have major portions of the culture of our parents or grandparents who came over on boats and not planes. The one difference from the immigrants of today and those of decades past was that they wanted to speak English and be “American” as soon as possible. Their children, many of us, were largely successful in that endeavor; sometimes to our spiritual detriment…

 

[Oscarthecat]

IMO they should apply to come in legally and if they stay it must be the legal way. Breaking the law is breaking the law.

However IMO if they need food and water I would help until they get sent back.

I agree- but our legal process is a bureaucratic nightmare- it expensive, time consuming, and corrupt.

If immigration was a fairly fast, efficient process that had built-in rewards for those who go through it, then immigrants with good intentions would be more likely to comply with it. The process should be so simple that genuine criminals would be the only people who would want to avoid it…

Of course, we can’t have a streamlined immigration policy until countries like Mexico agree to cooperate with us by releasing accurate criminal records to us so we can do criminal background checks on incoming immigrants. As it is, the Mexican government is hypocritical because they all but shove their criminals over our borders- all the while, enforcing extremely strict immigration policies within their own borders. But why should they do anything else? After all, money sent back from the US by illegal immigrants is one of the biggest parts of their economy.

 

[Oscarthecat]

Speaking of cultural hegemony. Many of us still have major portions of the culture of our parents or grandparents who came over on boats and not planes. The one difference from the immigrants of today and those of decades past was that they wanted to speak English and be “American” as soon as possible. Their children, many of us, were largely successful in that endeavor; sometimes to our spiritual detriment…

Actually, this kind of thing works itself out after a couple of generations. My grandmothers parents immigrated here, moved to a small german town where everyone spoke german, and never learned english.

It was the later generations that assimilated to mainstream culture, not the immigrating generation…

But I would agree that we are doing a great disservice to the entire nation, immigrants and citizens, by enabling second and even third generation immigrants to remain dependent on their parents’ and grandparents’ language. That kind of continued separation from mainstream society is just as bad as legal segregation.

 

[Dtmccameron]

That kind of continued separation from mainstream society is just as bad as legal segregation.

Is mainstream society worth integrating into? Is our society the ideal society, and should we force it on all who wander through the land to which we claim ownership?

What makes our society so great? I look upon it, especially the mainstream bit of it, and see nothing at all admirable. Freedom for Freedom’s sake, Art for Art’s sake, Progress for Progress’s sake. A pointless, Godless society. Millions of innocents slaughtered every year, hundreds while I’ve been typing. Pornography, Prostitution, an immoral, avaricious, lacivious society, spiraling straight to Hell.

Why on earth would we force anyone to integrate? It’d be a crime, in my opinion, to make anyone like “us”.

Why do we not consider that perhaps these aliens are bringing a healthier society? Perhaps not, but why must we decide, “It isn’t white, it speaks not english, it has a cross about its neck, get rid of it!”

If we are to be, to quote someone in another thread, So “open minded as for our brains to spill out” why on earth are we so against aliens?

If we can provide a better life for anyone, should be be calling out for more people?

 

[mark_a]

How do you guys view this issue and express your opinions on it?

A large part of me believes in cultural hegemony within a nation, and I know that illegals undermine this. However, an even greater part of me realizes that these people have families, and most come from countries that suffer under poor conditions and corruption. I am by no means pro-deportation, I believe that solution is inhumane and does not take into consideration human dignity. But I am not pro-legalized citizenship of illegals either. I believe in a middle ground, one where they can stay here and work but where they also don’t get benefits such as voting.

What do you guys think, and what does the Catholic Church think? I am a fairly new Catholic and have not heard a whole lot about this issue. Thanks and God bless!

Illegal immigration is the biggest non-issue there ever was.

There are plenty of employers making plenty of money from the sweat and suffering of illegal immigrants.

Take note that “illegals” will be increasingly rounded up and sent home as the economy worsens and these employers of “illegals” no longer need their services.

 

[Ender]

States have the right to control their borders and determine who is or is not admitted to their territory and we should do exactly that. Illegal immigration is a problem that needs to be managed to the point of elimination.

There are about 10 million Mexicans in this country, half of them here illegally. If we were serious about helping poor immigrants we would reduce the number of Mexicans which would allow us to significantly increase the number of the truly poor - e.g. those from El Salvador or Honduras. Mexico has the 12th largest economy in the world and the second highest average income in all of Central and South America. The argument that we need to welcome the poor falls in the face of the fact that it is not the truly poor that are coming here in the largest numbers.

Ender

 

[jc-servant]

Illegal immigration is the biggest non-issue there ever was.

It is not a non-issue for those of us in border states with Mexico where our public schools are bearing the burden of educating children who can’t speak English and who have no right to the free education here. I am not saying that it is there fault that their parents brought them here, but it is more than a non-issue when class sizes have exploded in recent years at some schools.

These children have caused a substantial investment in “billingual” education which means Spanish here in Texas. I know a couple whose children are US citizens whose first language is German because they were living abroad for several years for work. When they went to the school and asked for bilingual assistance they were told that was only for Spanish-speakers. The school would not make any special arrangements for these children who had every right to expect help from the public school.

Another problem that people don’t often think about is when people come here and have children, the kids are US citizens by birth even if they don’t speak English. If the parents go back to Spanish-speaking countries voluntarily or otherwise and take the kids, those same children can return in a number of years as non-English speaking US citizens and we will have to deal with them then. The problems created by our poor control over our borders are not going to go away anytime soon.

There are plenty of employers making plenty of money from the sweat and suffering of illegal immigrants.

This just makes two parties in the wrong, those who came illegally and those who hire them. This is something that all people concerned about illegal immigration need to be honest about. There are large numbers of middle class people who have no problem using the “cheap” labor by picking up some people to work on their lawn or their house, but they would deny that they are part of the problem of illegal immigration. It is not merely large farms or companies “exploiting” a shadow workforce of cheap labor.

Take note that “illegals” will be increasingly rounded up and sent home as the economy worsens and these employers of “illegals” no longer need their services.

There is no need to round up anyone. As the jobs have started to dry up here there is a steadily increasing flow back across our southern border. The people who came here for the money, not for a “new life” or to become a permanent part of our society are taking their earnings and going back home where they can enjoy the lower cost of living and invest their savings in small businesses, etc.

In fact, there are a significant number of US citizens who did not originate from Latin countries or speak Spanish who are moving to Mexico for retirement to stretch their dollars also. The difference is that the US citizens moving south are doing it the legal way because the Mexican government requires it.

 

[Annn]

Speaking of cultural hegemony. Many of us still have major portions of the culture of our parents or grandparents who came over on boats and not planes. The one difference from the immigrants of today and those of decades past was that they wanted to speak English and be “American” as soon as possible. Their children, many of us, were largely successful in that endeavor; sometimes to our spiritual detriment…

Um, actually, this is one of the greatest myths of American society. Were you not aware of giant ethnic enclaves in all of America’s largest cities, many of which still exist today? Or that so many public schools in Chicago in the late 19th century were German bilingual schools? In many neighborhoods around the US, you can not hear a word spoken in English for a series of blocks…and not all of these people are Latino and Asian.

 

[Annn]

Actually, this kind of thing works itself out after a couple of generations. My grandmothers parents immigrated here, moved to a small german town where everyone spoke german, and never learned english.

It was the later generations that assimilated to mainstream culture, not the immigrating generation…

But I would agree that we are doing a great disservice to the entire nation, immigrants and citizens, by enabling second and even third generation immigrants to remain dependent on their parents’ and grandparents’ language. That kind of continued separation from mainstream society is just as bad as legal segregation.

Agreed. But I think it is also important to note that knowlege of “home” culture can come as a distinct advantage, especially being bilingual in certain languages (like Spanish or Chinese)

 

[Oscarthecat]

Illegal immigration is the biggest non-issue there ever was.

I think you’re over-simplifying the issues at play here- it isn’t just about whether a person has jumped through the immigration/naturalization hoops-

and the issues negatively affect both citizens and non-citizens…

for example,

illegal immigrants don’t have legal recourse when their rights have been violated- they can’t simply go to the police or hire a lawyer when someone hurts or takes advantage of them.

people who have been wronged by illegal immigrants also don’t have the same recourse in civil courts as they would with legal citizen- because any civil charges levied against the illegal immigrant are generally trumped by higher government agencies concerned with their immigration status.

There are plenty of employers making plenty of money from the sweat and suffering of illegal immigrants.

is this a defense of illegal immigration?
Are justifying illegal immigration because it facilitates the taking advantage of people who lack legal rights and recourse by paying them sub-standard wages or exposing them to sub-standard working conditions?

 

[Califman831]

For those of you who are unaware of this fact, ENGLISH IS NOT A NATIVE AMERICAN LANGUAGE. It was one of the many thing imported by serveral cultures that came to the americas. I find it quite hypocritical to demand people learn a certain language in order assimulate, when the proveyors of the current dominate language failed to heed that vary advice. How many natives were forced to adopt the White man’s customs and culture, while being forced to ignore their own? How many men, women, and children where slaughtered, rounded up, and enslaved, because early european settlers failed to love thier brothers as thier lord commanded.

waits for an infraction for speaking the truth

 

[Caesar517]

For those of you who are unaware of this fact, ENGLISH IS NOT A NATIVE AMERICAN LANGUAGE. It was one of the many thing imported by serveral cultures that came to the americas. I find it quite hypocritical to demand people learn a certain language in order assimulate, when the proveyors of the current dominate language failed to heed that vary advice. How many natives were forced to adopt the White man’s customs and culture, while being forced to ignore their own? How many men, women, and children where slaughtered, rounded up, and enslaved, because early european settlers failed to love thier brothers as thier lord commanded.

waits for an infraction for speaking the truth

Europeans came to the Americas as conquerors, not as immigrants.

 

[rwoehmke]

Um, actually, this is one of the greatest myths of American society. Were you not aware of giant ethnic enclaves in all of America’s largest cities, many of which still exist today? Or that so many public schools in Chicago in the late 19th century were German bilingual schools? In many neighborhoods around the US, you can not hear a word spoken in English for a series of blocks…and not all of these people are Latino and Asian.

Very aware. My father and mothers families spoke German until World War I started. At that point both my grandfathers told their families, “We are Americans now:and we will no longer speak German in this house.” My mom and dad were about six or seven years old at the time. Four of my five children took their degrees in the German Language, all six speak German fluently. Five of them worked in Europe after college for three to five years. The youngest and his English wife are still over there.

I grew up in a small city that was mostly ethnc Germans and lived not far from Hamtramack, a Polish city within the city of Detroit. I ended up marrying a first generation Irish woman from an Irish neighborhood. Most of the immigrants I knew fewlt it was important for their children to be Americans, speak English, and retain some of the ethnic things like holiday practices and Saints.

 

[Georgia]

The problem here is the illegal entry into the United States. We have no way of knowing who is here and what may be coming across the border. It could be drugs, disease, criminals or people wanting to work for a better life.
The gangs like MS-13 and others are responsible for huge amounts of crime, very violent crime at that. A recent statistic in the news a few months ago said said 13 Americans are killed in traffic accidents with illegal aliens every day and that 12 Americans are murdered by illegal aliens each day. If that is anywhere near the truth, the failure of the immigration program is scary. Read some of the stories about how many kidnappings have taken place in Arizona as drug cartel violence moves north.
In the area where I live, there have been at least two families I remember who were killed by drunken drivers who were also illegal aliens. We have had police officers murdered by illegal aliens.
The economy becomes distorted with people working off the books and not paying taxes. Wages are depressed. Jobs that once went to teenagers are no longer available. Money is wired out of the country and that hurts the economy. Governmental services are strained, especially health care and law enforcement.
There has to be an answer. I don’t pretend to know what it is, but the law has to be enforced in some intelligent way.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

… A recent statistic in the news a few months ago said said 13 Americans are killed in traffic accidents with illegal aliens every day and that 12 Americans are murdered by illegal aliens each day. If that is anywhere near the truth,…
.

It is not true, not close to true, so you can relax now.

 

[Ender]

It is not true, not close to true, so you can relax now.

I entered * illegal +crime +statistics *into a Yahoo search and the second item listed contained this:

*a number of congressmen requested that the General Accountability Office (GAO) investigate and report information on criminal aliens incarcerated in federal and state prisons and local jails. The resulting GAO report, published in April 2005, revealed that illegal aliens make up 27% of the prison population. (The oft-cited figure of 12 million illegal aliens in the country means that they make up just 4% of the general population.)

•         *Since illegal aliens are unlikely to be committing white-collar crimes, that figure likely underestimates the amount of violent crime committed by illegal aliens. Using the GAO report, Representative Steve King of Iowa points out that 25 Americans, on average, are killed by illegal aliens every day (about evenly split between motor vehicle accidents and outright murder).*
  
        *Do the math: That works out to more than 9,000 deaths per year, or more than 36,000 deaths over the past four years. That's more than ten times the number of Americans killed in Iraq over the past four year*s!

infowars.com/articles/immigration/illegal_alien_crime_stats.htm

I know nothing about the site containing this info but it does say it got the data from a government GAO report. I’d look it up but I’m not that interested in doing the research but the numbers you casually dismissed may well be quite correct. Since neither of us knows the truth for sure I’ll ask would it make any difference to your position on illegal immigration if the numbers are correct? If these facts don’t matter to you there is no sense investigating them further.

Ender

 

[Texas_Roofer]

I entered * illegal +crime +statistics *into a Yahoo search and the second item listed contained this:

*a number of congressmen requested that the General Accountability Office (GAO) investigate and report information on criminal aliens incarcerated in federal and state prisons and local jails. The resulting GAO report, published in April 2005, revealed that illegal aliens make up 27% of the prison population. (The oft-cited figure of 12 million illegal aliens in the country means that they make up just 4% of the general population.)

•         *Since illegal aliens are unlikely to be committing white-collar crimes, that figure likely underestimates the amount of violent crime committed by illegal aliens. Using the GAO report, Representative Steve King of Iowa points out that 25 Americans, on average, are killed by illegal aliens every day (about evenly split between motor vehicle accidents and outright murder).*
  
        *Do the math: That works out to more than 9,000 deaths per year, or more than 36,000 deaths over the past four years. That's more than ten times the number of Americans killed in Iraq over the past four year*s!

infowars.com/articles/immigration/illegal_alien_crime_stats.htm

I know nothing about the site containing this info but it does say it got the data from a government GAO report. I’d look it up but **I’m not that interested in doing the research but **the numbers you casually dismissed may well be quite correct. Since neither of us knows the truth for sure I’ll ask would it make any difference to your position on illegal immigration if the numbers are correct? If these facts don’t matter to you there is no sense investigating them further.

Ender

 

[Texas_Roofer]

I entered * illegal +crime +statistics *into a Yahoo search and the second item listed contained this:

*a number of congressmen requested that the General Accountability Office (GAO) investigate and report information on criminal aliens incarcerated in federal and state prisons and local jails. The resulting GAO report, published in April 2005, revealed that illegal aliens make up 27% of the prison population. (The oft-cited figure of 12 million illegal aliens in the country means that they make up just 4% of the general population.)

•         *Since illegal aliens are unlikely to be committing white-collar crimes, that figure likely underestimates the amount of violent crime committed by illegal aliens. Using the GAO report, Representative Steve King of Iowa points out that 25 Americans, on average, are killed by illegal aliens every day (about evenly split between motor vehicle accidents and outright murder).*
  
        *Do the math: That works out to more than 9,000 deaths per year, or more than 36,000 deaths over the past four years. That's more than ten times the number of Americans killed in Iraq over the past four year*s!

infowars.com/articles/immigration/illegal_alien_crime_stats.htm

I know nothing about the site containing this info but it does say it got the data from a government GAO report.

yet you nor they or for that matter thousands of other can produce these GAO reports?

As Colorado Media Matters noted, King claimed that he based his figures on his own “extrapolat[ion]” of figures from a Government Accountability Office (GAO) study. A Colorado Media Matters review found that there is no GAO study reporting that illegal immigrants kill 25 Americans a day. The review also found that GAO reports addressed to King and figures released by the Department of Justice’s Bureau of Justice Statistics do not support his assertion that 28 percent of inmates in all prisons and jails are criminal aliens, which underlies his “extrapolat[ion].” colorado.mediamatters.org/items/200804040002

*Seeing as how only 16,000 Americans are murdered each year, that seemed like those dadgum illegals were being very, very busy. So we called the GAO.

They were baffled. “I’m trying to think how she got there,” says Rich Stana, the GAO’s director for homeland security and justice issues.

The closest report that might fit, he says, was a snapshot count of all people incarcerated in March 2005. That report showed almost 6,000 illegal immigrants behind bars in federal, state or local facilities for murder, homicide or manslaughter.

But that includes people charged but not yet convicted, not to mention people serving time for murders committed five, ten, even 20 years ago. “Murder charges usually bring a more than one-year sentence,” Stana says.

So where did Sekula-Gibbs get her 9,000-deaths-a-year figure? Not from the GAO, as it turns out.
offthekuff.com/mt/archives/008378.html*

*The “undocumented immigrants kill 25 citizens a day” myth has been repeated on the Boyles show numerous times in the past—even by Boyles himself—despite a lack of accurate data to the contrary.

In fact, such a figure isn’t even statistically possible. Most recent reports from the Federal Bureau of Investigation show that an estimated 17,034 people were murdered nationwide in 2006. Murdering 25 citizens a day, that adds up to 9,125 individual homicides a year, more than half of the total annual number!

coloradoindependent.com/4343/immigrant-murder-myth-alive-and-well-on-talk-radio*

I’d look it up but I’m not that interested in doing the research but the numbers you casually dismissed may well be quite correct.

Since neither of us knows the truth for sure I’ll ask would it make any difference to your position on illegal immigration if the numbers are correct?

It would seem you have errored - assuming about my knowledge

If these facts don’t matter to you there is no sense investigating them further.

Ender

I believe the word is spin, you have spun the statement which is typically when defending the statement is a problem. The statement is false always was probably always will be. ( Math prblem - what population do we need to make it true? answer : approximately 160,000,000 illegal immigrants)