How to take a stand on illegal immigration?

[Bullfighter]

Do you have any evidence to support the idea that money spent on primary schooling for children of illegal immigrants has led to any increase in homelessless in Chicago? Thanks.

About 2 years ago, Cook County announce a budget crisis. They were about 15-20% in the hole and began closing hospital facilities. The problem hasn’t changed, but they have taken steps to make sure that only people qualified to receive care get it.

I used to go to the County hospital and it was loaded with Mexicans. So many that you knew it was out of proportion to the actual population of Chicago. After the County started asking for photo IDs, the problem was greatly reduced but the money was still missing.

It’s not only the county, but Chicago, and in many areas of Illinois. Illegal aliens have been getting services that they never payed taxes for. And when I say never payed taxes, I mean not for just a year or two since on this side of the border, but a lifetime of taxpaying so your children are payed up and in the system.

If I’m 40 years old and payed taxes for 20 years, I just payed for my children’s schooling right? But hopping the border then having a child, everyone else must pay for that child but the parents.

Every penny spent on children that don’t belong in this country is a penny that could have been spent on the American poor. What organizations help them.

The average child in my neighborhood receives a education worth about $175,000. in today’s money. K-12 You can’t tell me that the money wouldn’t have helped the homeless of Chicago.

The Catholic Church has been working against the American poor by supplying funds to Latino organizations that encourage the illegal migration into the US.

I’ll be happy to supply you with the websites that prove this.

Here’s is one of them

This will take you to the annual report for 2008:
archchicago.org/departmen…eport_2008.pdf

 

[siamesecat]

This thread is scaring me. People honestly think Jesus would shoot people crossing the border and support suicide bombers at immigration rallies? I don’t think Jesus would care about secular boundaries such as those between countries - I would think he would want all people to coexist, particularly Catholics, as Mexicans are. It seems some people here have more allegiance to a particular country or culture than to God.

 

[pnewton]

This thread is scaring me… It seems some people here have more allegiance to a particular country or culture than to God.

The reason this topic is so controversial is that the wrong-doing on the part of a few can color one’s perspective to the whole group. Even hispanic Americans can get lumped into the group called “Mexicans.” This is human nature and it is one reason we need equity in enforcing the law. On the other hand, we are called by the grace of God to rise above such human frailties and, rather than fall prey to racism, to see Christ in everyone we meet. The Catholic Church ministers to those who are here, legal or not, because Christ himself commanded us to do so, as a requirement of being with Him in heaven.

Matthew 25:41
Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ 44 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ 45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

 

[RobertLGarrett]

The Catholic Church ministers to those who are here, legal or not, because Christ himself commanded us to do so, as a requirement of being with Him in heaven.

Correct.

There are a lot of valid concerns regarding illegal immigration. Certainly, countries have right to control their borders and immigration. Deportation is not against Church teaching - it is a consequence of the illegal entry by the immigrant. Choosing not to deport, by either giving complete amnesty or by creating a “guest worker program” with a “path to citizenship” is also not against Church teaching.

Because of their choice to enter the country illegally, the immigrants also don’t have a right to government-financed services. Again, this is a consequence of their choices.

That said, no matter what we do to correct the illegal immigration problems, as Catholics we are to love our fellow human beings. If someone is hungry and we have the wherewithal to feed them, we should. If they are in need of shelter from extreme weather and we have the wherewithal to provide shelter, we should. Does this mean we must do so with government policy? If you answer “yes” or “no,” then you are taking a valid Catholic position.

 

[siamesecat]

The reason this topic is so controversial is that the wrong-doing on the part of a few can color one’s perspective to the whole group. Even hispanic Americans can get lumped into the group called “Mexicans.” This is human nature and it is one reason we need equity in enforcing the law. On the other hand, we are called by the grace of God to rise above such human frailties and, rather than fall prey to racism, to see Christ in everyone we meet. The Catholic Church ministers to those who are here, legal or not, because Christ himself commanded us to do so, as a requirement of being with Him in heaven.

I understand where the attitude comes from, and I understand illegal immigration causes problems that should be addressed, but this forum was the last place I expected to hear such rhetoric. Anyone who says they are a devout Catholic should be able to see as they are writing about violence that they are being ridiculously opposed to what Jesus taught. Prejudice brought on by ignorance or the actions of a few members of a group is very dangerous and irrational. It’s not like God only likes Americans and cares about our safety.

 

[Bullfighter]

I understand where the attitude comes from, and I understand illegal immigration causes problems that should be addressed, but this forum was the last place I expected to hear such rhetoric. Anyone who says they are a devout Catholic should be able to see as they are writing about violence that they are being ridiculously opposed to what Jesus taught. Prejudice brought on by ignorance or the actions of a few members of a group is very dangerous and irrational. It’s not like God only likes Americans and cares about our safety.

God has blessed this country because its people were always willing to make the supreme sacrifice of Laying down his life for his friends and countrymen. That’s in the Bible TOO!

This is not a question of Catholic. This is about are YOU willing to make those same sacrifices so this country will continue to be in the hands of the righteous.

This is a question of what will it take for Americans to rise up in their righteous might and defend their OWN culture, their OWN society, their OWN people who have defended the world in all those wars in the 20th century while their Mexican neighbors did not lift a finger to help. Is that justice? Can you tell me why a people from a country that has barely 2% of the population of the world is entitled to just walk in and take whatever they want from their neighbor?

I have seen these people that you defend; attack an old woman who can barely see, on her way to Church, just minutes before the main Sunday Mass. But she was tough because she has lived in this neighborhood all her life, like me and she fought off the attacker that ran into a waiting car and the car drove away. The wrong way down a one way street.

You can’t coexist with evil. If you don’t fight it, you will begin to justify it. You will justify the attacks on your own people. And then you will BE evil.

Ask the people of Europe about evil in the 1940’s. Ask the people of Asia. You can’t just wish it away. You must be willing to sacrifice to remove evil.

A great man and one who should be considered for sainthood was a Lutheran minister and theologian who, with others, plotted to kill Hitler. He, with other of his family members, was executed by the Nazis because of this belief:

Quote:
Christians are, therefore, faced with a dilemma: when assaulted by evil, they must oppose it through direct action. They have no other option. Any failure to act is simply to condone evil.
Ethics… Dietrich Bonhoeffer

 

[FK04US]

On Immigration

“I want to encourage you and your communities to continue to welcome the immigrants who join your ranks today, to share their joys and hopes, to support them in their sorrows and trials, and to help them flourish in their new home.”

—Pope Benedict XVI, Celebration of Vespers and Meeting with
the Bishops of the United States of America, April 2008​

​

The Bishops Call for Comprehensive Immigration Reform

The Pew Hispanic Forum estimates that about 12 million undocumented immigrants live and work in the United States today. The motivations pushing immigrants to risk unauthorized entry into America are varied, but most hope to reunite with family members already here or to find work that will provide support for their families back home. The existing immigration system has created a growing number of persons living in this country in an unauthorized capacity, living in the shadows as they toil in jobs that would otherwise go unfilled. The Church believes that current immigration laws and policies have often led to the undermining of immigrants’ human dignity and have kept families apart. The bishops of the United States have been strong supporters of comprehensive immigration reform, which includes

• A broad-based legalization (permanent residency) of the undocumented of all nationalities
• Reform of our family-based immigration system to allow family members to reunite with loved ones in the United States
• Reform of the employment-based immigration system to provide legal pathways for migrants to come and work in a safe, humane, and orderly manner
• Abandonment of the border “blockade” enforcement strategy
• Restoration of due process protections for immigrants

Distortions in the Immigration Debate

Too often, discussions surrounding illegal immigration are reduced to distortions about who undocumented immigrants are and what they want.

Some people say that undocumented immigrants don’t pay taxes. In fact, undocumented immigrants pay billions of dollars in sales, income, and property taxes each year—directly if they own, and indirectly if they rent. According to the Social Security Administration (SSA), undocumented workers pay as much as $7 billion in Social Security and Medicare taxes each year and have contributed as much as a half-trillion dollars since 1984.

Others say that immigrants don’t want to learn English. In fact, while first-generation, non–English-speaking immigrants predictably have lower rates of English proficiency than native speakers, 91% of second-generation immigrants are fluent or near-fluent English speakers. By the third generation, 97% speak English fluently or near-fluently.

Still others conclude that we need to close our borders to prevent another catastrophe like 9/11. In fact, seventeen of the nineteen 9/11 terrorists were in the country legally on student visas—only two had overstayed their visas. By legalizing the undocumented population and by creating more visas for workers to enter legally, we can better know who is in the country and who is coming, thus making us safer as a nation.

To learn more about the USCCB’s policy positions on issues related to immigration, please visit www.usccb.org/mrs/policypositions.shtml.

 

[Stephenite]

Render unto Caeser that which is Caeser’s , render unto God that which is God’s. Mt22:21

The USA is a nation of immigrants and it is a nation of laws. The tax paying citizens have a right to expect that the laws of the US will be followed by all. What we have now is chaos. There are hospitals closing because of the expense of emergency services that are not reimbursed.( many of which are better suited to Doctor office visits, ie flu, colds etc.) The social services and education systems in states where illegals congregate are unable to provide adequate services due to the extra burden. Where is the social justice there?

The illegals are being victimized by their “employers” by not being provided with employer benefits and also by their native countries which are corrupt societies with the super rich and the impoverished. NAFTA was supposed to develop a middle class in Mexico and has failed due to corruption, The Mexican middle class works in the USA! Legitimate employers in the USA have to compete with this corruption by reducing benefits to their legal employees. Where is the social justice there?

We should demand an end to the corruption inside and outside of our borders. That would lead to true justice. PAX!

 

[Annn]

Ok, Bullfighter, I think comparing illegal immigration to Nazis and wholesome people like yourself who propose shooting illegal immigrants to a minister who wanted to kill Hitler is the single most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard on this forums!

 

[Bullfighter]

On Immigration

“I want to encourage you and your communities to continue to welcome the immigrants who join your ranks today, to share their joys and hopes, to support them in their sorrows and trials, and to help them flourish in their new home.”

**—Pope Benedict XVI, Celebration of Vespers and Meeting with **

the Bishops of the United States of America, April 2008​

The Bishops Call for Comprehensive Immigration Reform

The Pew Hispanic Forum estimates that about 12 million undocumented immigrants live and work in the United States today. The motivations pushing immigrants to risk unauthorized entry into America are varied, but most hope to reunite with family members already here or to find work that will provide support for their families back home. The existing immigration system has created a growing number of persons living in this country in an unauthorized capacity, living in the shadows as they toil in jobs that would otherwise go unfilled. The Church believes that current immigration laws and policies have often led to the undermining of immigrants’ human dignity and have kept families apart. The bishops of the United States have been strong supporters of comprehensive immigration reform, which includes

• A broad-based legalization (permanent residency) of the undocumented of all nationalities
• Reform of our family-based immigration system to allow family members to reunite with loved ones in the United States
• Reform of the employment-based immigration system to provide legal pathways for migrants to come and work in a safe, humane, and orderly manner
• Abandonment of the border “blockade” enforcement strategy
• Restoration of due process protections for immigrants

Distortions in the Immigration Debate

Too often, discussions surrounding illegal immigration are reduced to distortions about who undocumented immigrants are and what they want.

Some people say that undocumented immigrants don’t pay taxes. In fact, undocumented immigrants pay billions of dollars in sales, income, and property taxes each year—directly if they own, and indirectly if they rent. According to the Social Security Administration (SSA), undocumented workers pay as much as $7 billion in Social Security and Medicare taxes each year and have contributed as much as a half-trillion dollars since 1984.

Others say that immigrants don’t want to learn English. In fact, while first-generation, non–English-speaking immigrants predictably have lower rates of English proficiency than native speakers, 91% of second-generation immigrants are fluent or near-fluent English speakers. By the third generation, 97% speak English fluently or near-fluently.

Still others conclude that we need to close our borders to prevent another catastrophe like 9/11. In fact, seventeen of the nineteen 9/11 terrorists were in the country legally on student visas—only two had overstayed their visas. By legalizing the undocumented population and by creating more visas for workers to enter legally, we can better know who is in the country and who is coming, thus making us safer as a nation.

To learn more about the USCCB’s policy positions on issues related to immigration, please visit www.usccb.org/mrs/policypositions.shtml.

By the way, I have read the same documents and it always seems that a hispanic name is attached to them. Not exactly a non-biased document, is it!

I refuse to let the Catholic Church run my country even though I am Catholic.

Here is a website showing where all the funds for the Catholic Campaign for Human Development went for the Chicagoland area. I can tell you that the most funds received went to organizations that descibe themselves as Latino. There was the occasional group that wasn’t Latino mentioned, but the largest amounts went to people with roots and loyalties south of the border. Not exactly a fair immigration policy that OUR Catholic Church is running now is it.

archchicago.org/departmen…eport_2008.pdf

 

[Bullfighter]

Render unto Caeser that which is Caeser’s , render unto God that which is God’s. Mt22:21

The USA is a nation of immigrants and it is a nation of laws. The tax paying citizens have a right to expect that the laws of the US will be followed by all. What we have now is chaos. There are hospitals closing because of the expense of emergency services that are not reimbursed.( many of which are better suited to Doctor office visits, ie flu, colds etc.) The social services and education systems in states where illegals congregate are unable to provide adequate services due to the extra burden. Where is the social justice there?

The illegals are being victimized by their “employers” by not being provided with employer benefits and also by their native countries which are corrupt societies with the super rich and the impoverished. NAFTA was supposed to develop a middle class in Mexico and has failed due to corruption, The Mexican middle class works in the USA! Legitimate employers in the USA have to compete with this corruption by reducing benefits to their legal employees. Where is the social justice there?

We should demand an end to the corruption inside and outside of our borders. That would lead to true justice. PAX!

Illegals being victimized by their employers?

How about the gangs that corner employers and threaten their families with violence if they don’t hire THEIR PEOPLE?

How about the municipalities that don’t hire Engish speaking AMERICANS because they can’t converse with the Spanish speaking population that has overrun an their AMERICAN town.

This is the reality and future for America unless people decide to reclaim what has been stolen from them.

Stop hiding behind the bible and defend your country!

 

[Bullfighter]

Ok, Bullfighter, I think comparing illegal immigration to Nazis and wholesome people like yourself who propose shooting illegal immigrants to a minister who wanted to kill Hitler is the single most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard on this forums!

Not once did I ever say shoot anybody. Stop twisting my words. I’m trying to describe what it is like in a community that has been taken over by the people you defend as hard working, poor, unfortunate, creatures.

If they have no opportunities in their own countries, it is because they themselves over populated them. From 1950 - 2005 the population of Mexico has quadrupled while the US population hasn’t even doubled. Are you going to blame the US for all the aid that we sent them over the years? The life expectancy of the average Mexican jumped from 50 to 75 years of age in that same period while just 3 years short of that of a US citizen. That tells me one thing. They aren’t as impoverished as one might think.

I’ve taken all the information off the United Nations website. Now, unless you wan’t to accuse them of being racist, I suggest you do some research yourself before you accuse me again!

Also, during a Memorial Day Mass at my Church, the Polish priest there talked about the duty of defending one’s country from invaders. “Even if you must kill to stop them, it is your duty to stop them!”

He’s from Poland and the Polish know something about being invaded.

 

[FK04US]

By the way, I have read the same documents and it always seems that a hispanic name is attached to them. Not exactly a non-biased document, is it!

I refuse to let the Catholic Church run my country even though I am Catholic.

Here is a website showing where all the funds for the Catholic Campaign for Human Development went for the Chicagoland area. I can tell you that the most funds received went to organizations that descibe themselves as Latino. There was the occasional group that wasn’t Latino mentioned, but the largest amounts went to people with roots and loyalties south of the border. Not exactly a fair immigration policy that OUR Catholic Church is running now is it.

archchicago.org/departmen…eport_2008.pdf

You just showed us the real “you” … and it looks ugly my friend. You are a racist, and not a Catholic. If you are unwilling to follow the lead of the Pope and the USCCB, then you are a Protestant. Please, go and start your own church, be your own Pope, and praise your own racist God for American passports only. I’ll pray for your conversion to the Holy Catholic Church, but for now, you are a racist Protestant.

God bless, and please forgive me for my lack of tact.

 

[Annn]

I’ve done plenty of research and have not twisted any of your words. I also never claimed that illegal immigrants are poor and unfortunate. I think coming without a visa is wrong. I also think that it’s our moral duty to give a basic education to all small children living within our borders - NOT to punish children for their parents’ mistakes.

You claim you never advocated shooting anyone, and concluded your post with another quote about shooting immigrants! You just don’t know when to stop!

 

[joe_clark]

Illegals being victimized by their employers?

How about the gangs that corner employers and threaten their families with violence if they don’t hire THEIR PEOPLE?

How about the municipalities that don’t hire Engish speaking AMERICANS because they can’t converse with the Spanish speaking population that has overrun an their AMERICAN town.

This is the reality and future for America unless people decide to reclaim what has been stolen from them.

Stop hiding behind the bible and defend your country!

Ilegals being victimized by their employers? Yep! Of course rich people that own companies take full advantage of the situation. Why do you think Bush and his cronies were doing the samba when hard core Republican senators demanded we close our borders. We have an agreement with Canada due to 911 concerns HOWEVER, no such agreements in the south. Why? Money that’s why. Remember Money goes to money and that is not you and I.

On the Gangs along with deteriorating educational and medical services, the people in charge and their rich friends couldn’t care less. The same people that scream from the rooftops waving an American flag yelling (in patriotic fashion) “close the borders”, are the same people that own the farms and the poultry factories in the south that benefit, use and abuse the illegal workers. Nice, burning both ends of the cigarette.

 

[Viki63]

=Stephenite;4564909]Render unto Caeser that which is Caeser’s , render unto God that which is God’s. Mt22:21
The illegals are being victimized . . . also by their native countries which are corrupt societies with the super rich and the impoverished. NAFTA was supposed to develop a middle class in Mexico and has failed due to corruption, The Mexican middle class works in the USA! Legitimate employers in the USA have to compete with this corruption by reducing benefits to their legal employees. Where is the social justice there?

I think Stephenite has hit the nail on the head: it’s not really the church or even the immigrants themselves who are causing the problem, it’s their irresponsible governments, and ours for letting them get away with it.
The Mexican government even published a comic book (for those who can’t read) showing how to cross the border. They want to shove all their unemployed into the US, and are misusing their power, The Mexicans have little respect for authority as a result, since the government and police they see are so corrupt.
If we’re sending aid to Mexico, it should be contingent on their coming up with plans to decrease unemployment in their own country.

My mother in law lives in Mexico, has worked all her life, has diabetes, yet when she needs medicine we have to send her money for it, there’s very little safety net for the elderly.
Mexican politicians who are not trying to remedy their social dysfunction should be ashamed of themselves.
Maybe the church should start refusing them the Eucharist.

 

[Bullfighter]

I’ve done plenty of research and have not twisted any of your words. I also never claimed that illegal immigrants are poor and unfortunate. I think coming without a visa is wrong. I also think that it’s our moral duty to give a basic education to all small children living within our borders - NOT to punish children for their parents’ mistakes.

You claim you never advocated shooting anyone, and concluded your post with another quote about shooting immigrants! You just don’t know when to stop!

READ WHAT I WRITE CAREFULLY!

I advocate defending the United States of America from invaders and you make it sound monsterous! Are you for real? Did you ever read a history book?

To dump children inside our borders is THEIR GRAND STRATEGY. It’s nothing that hasn’t been tried before in other parts of the world at other times in history.

I am not a politician so I will not disguise my words with clever prose. These people are invading the US. They are soldiers without uniforms. They will never become Americans but will force Americans to their culture.

OPEN YOUR EYES!

 

[Bullfighter]

I think Stephenite has hit the nail on the head: it’s not really the church or even the immigrants themselves who are causing the problem, it’s their irresponsible governments, and ours for letting them get away with it.
The Mexican government even published a comic book (for those who can’t read) showing how to cross the border. They want to shove all their unemployed into the US, and are misusing their power, The Mexicans have little respect for authority as a result, since the government and police they see are so corrupt.
If we’re sending aid to Mexico, it should be contingent on their coming up with plans to decrease unemployment in their own country.

My mother in law lives in Mexico, has worked all her life, has diabetes, yet when she needs medicine we have to send her money for it, there’s very little safety net for the elderly.
Mexican politicians who are not trying to remedy their social dysfunction should be ashamed of themselves.
Maybe the church should start refusing them the Eucharist.

When I need the real truth about Mexico, I watch the BBC.

In the past, I’ve seen shows about the immigrants traveling on the top of trains while passing through Mexico. One traveler started to say how he should get even for all the wars the US started in his country, then he stopped when he realized what he was saying.

The BBC did a segment on how an amusement park in Mexico was turned into a training ground for getting across the border. Of course, they said it was all just for amusement, but the Mexican government makes a lot of money from infiltrating our borders. Whose kidding who!

They did a show with a Mexican reporter admitting that Vincente Fox was cooperating with the gangs of his country. I guess he wants to stay alive more than reform his country.

The only answer is a direct confrontation between the US and Mexico. It is almost probable because the US government has been looking into the legality of using the US Army as police in the states.

 

[Bullfighter]

You just showed us the real “you” … and it looks ugly my friend. You are a racist, and not a Catholic. If you are unwilling to follow the lead of the Pope and the USCCB, then you are a Protestant. Please, go and start your own church, be your own Pope, and praise your own racist God for American passports only. I’ll pray for your conversion to the Holy Catholic Church, but for now, you are a racist Protestant.

God bless, and please forgive me for my lack of tact.

I’m an American who doesn’t want to see his country destroyed by an invading army. I’m an American who is disgusted to see all the help that the invading army has been getting through what should be a neutral charity available to all people.

If that makes me a racist, I would be proud to be called one.

 

[Bullfighter]

Render unto Caeser that which is Caeser’s , render unto God that which is God’s. Mt22:21

The USA is a nation of immigrants and it is a nation of laws. The tax paying citizens have a right to expect that the laws of the US will be followed by all. What we have now is chaos. There are hospitals closing because of the expense of emergency services that are not reimbursed.( many of which are better suited to Doctor office visits, ie flu, colds etc.) The social services and education systems in states where illegals congregate are unable to provide adequate services due to the extra burden. Where is the social justice there?

The illegals are being victimized by their “employers” by not being provided with employer benefits and also by their native countries which are corrupt societies with the super rich and the impoverished. NAFTA was supposed to develop a middle class in Mexico and has failed due to corruption, The Mexican middle class works in the USA! Legitimate employers in the USA have to compete with this corruption by reducing benefits to their legal employees. Where is the social justice there?

We should demand an end to the corruption inside and outside of our borders. That would lead to true justice. PAX!

The only victims are Americans who must watch their country being turned into a cesspool of crime and corruption with third world gangs replacing the brown shirts of Hitler’s Germany