How tough are the psychological examinations for entering the seminary?

[NPC]

Tough probably isn’t the word - I would say the process is more draining than anything. As others have said, as long as one is honest there won’t be any problems! My assessment was conducted by a priest-psychologist whom the bishop trusts greatly. It took about five hours - though as others have shown, the method of testing varies from psychologist to psychologist.

As far as I can remember (the test was a year ago) I had to start by talking about my earliest memory - amazingly, everything else seemed to follow from that. The psychologist, understandably, didn’t talk all that much, but rather directed me towards topics that he wanted me to explore - so everything was up for discussion: childhood, education, relationships, family, spiritual life, &c. After a few hours of talking, I had to do quite a lot of writing: I was given 6 pictures (not ink-blots but actual pictures depicting clear scenes [except one which was abstract]) to look at, and then about 50 minutes to write about each of them: what has caused the scene, what is happening now, and how is the situation resolved. I guess this was a test of how one can identify feelings which emerge from different situations, and probably to examine one’s outlook when confronted with such situations (pessimistic or optimistic). I then had another 10 minutes to complete a series of sentences to describe myself: something like “I am joyful when…”, “I really admire…” - very open topics which obviously can reveal a lot about the person.

Following a short break so as the psychologist could go through my written answers, it was back for another hour of talking! I was completely wrecked by the time we finished - as I said, it can be very draining; although I think I talk a lot, I’m not normally the one doing all the talking. Thanks be to God, from a psychological point of view, everything was ok. I never got a much of a review of the test - the psychologist told me what he was going to tell the bishop, namely that there was no cause for concern, and then I signed a document giving permission for the results to be released to the bishop.

I would reiterate, however, that honesty is really the best policy. We all have baggage of one kind or another, but that does not automatically disqualify us from studying for priesthood or religious life. Don’t forget that seminary is for formation - you are not going to be ordained tomorrow - the psychologist may well make recommendations for personal development or perhaps counselling if he detects that you may have emotional difficulties, but you and your bishop should see such things as an opportunity for formation, not as an outright indication that you are not suited to the priesthood.

Remember too that the psychological assessment in itself does not indicate that you do or do not have a vocation. That is a decision for the bishop (or the superior of the religious community). Though it would be unwise for the bishop to discard the findings of the psychologist, whether they are exceedingly good or exceedingly worrying, the final decision rests with the bishop.

 

[Jennifer_G]

Am I reading right, that your high IQ was counted against you?

Well, if a Harvard valedictorian can become a nun (sister, rather), I guess IQ isn’t counted against some things. Then again, that’s the Nashville Dominicans, so they’d probably want someone who’s very smart, and fluent in Latin.

In the case of cloistered Carmelites, maybe they figured someone with a high IQ might get a little bored?

The funny thing is, I’ve been through so many IQ tests, that I practically memorize the IQ test now! (for what reason, I don’t know… I had one every other grade growing up. Maybe it was because I started out in Special Ed?)

 

[scoobydoo6v92]

My question is, Are these tests a tool to “weed out” or an assessment tool. I need to make an appointment for it soon. I am really scared of this part of it. Is the pshyc test the hardest hurdle to go though?? Is being nervous going to make it harder? I wouldn’t be worried as much if it is not used as a “weed out”

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

My question is, Are these tests a tool to “weed out” or an assessment tool. I need to make an appointment for it soon. I am really scared of this part of it. Is the pshyc test the hardest hurdle to go though?? Is being nervous going to make it harder? I wouldn’t be worried as much if it is not used as a “weed out”

I believe that they are used to show the acceptability of a candidate. In some cases they may “weed out” an individual. In other cases they may raise red flags that can be dealt with.

For me the hardest part of the application process was the personal interviews. I had to undergo three of them. One with the Prior Provincial, one with the Novice Master, and one with the Pre-novice Master.

 

[Young_Thinker]

For me the hardest part of the application process was the personal interviews. I had to undergo three of them. One with the Prior Provincial, one with the Novice Master, and one with the Pre-novice Master.

How are you, Br. David? I was curious as to what these interviews tend to be like. Do they emphasize anything in particular? For instance, I suspect that one’s prayer-life would be an important issue for a comtemplative order.

 

[scoobydoo6v92]

My last question is, do most people that take these tests are found acceptable? I am not talking about someone that has an acute case of bipolar or hear voices or nuts but I mean the typical everyday guy/gal. What kind of personality is not acceptable? or are type “B” people more desirable and type “A” people weeded ouit? just wondering. Thanks Scoob.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

How are you, Br. David? I was curious as to what these interviews tend to be like. Do they emphasize anything in particular? For instance, I suspect that one’s prayer-life would be an important issue for a comtemplative order.

It has been awhile but from what I can recall.

Yes, personal prayer life was discussed. Did I have a spiritual director. The biggest emphasis was on my active life within the Church. Was I active in my parish, was I volunteering. What other forms of service was I living out.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

My last question is, do most people that take these tests are found acceptable? I am not talking about someone that has an acute case of bipolar or hear voices or nuts but I mean the typical everyday guy/gal. What kind of personality is not acceptable? or are type “B” people more desirable and type “A” people weeded ouit? just wondering. Thanks Scoob.

I believe it all depends on who you are applying with and what they are looking for.

For instance, a very strong type “A” personality might not fit in with a strict closure monastic type order but then a very strong type “B” might not be a good fit for a missionary type community.

Then throw in dioceses and what the various bishops are looking for. I think anything that would be tested as being in the norm would not automatically disqualify one. It is the abnormal things that might hurt someone.

I took two psych tests, one for an eparchy and the other for the order. The eparchy one was first and when I went in for the interview after the testing the doctor told me that, basically, all the tests told him was that I was not insane and that I did not have a brain tumor.

 

[NPC]

My question is, Are these tests a tool to “weed out” or an assessment tool. I need to make an appointment for it soon. I am really scared of this part of it. Is the pshyc test the hardest hurdle to go though?? Is being nervous going to make it harder? I wouldn’t be worried as much if it is not used as a “weed out”

You will be going into a situation that you are not familiar with. You will not know the psychologist… Of course you are going to be a bit nervous! But don’t worry about it. The psychologist will certainly understand.

The tests can help determine a candidate’s suitability - although the final decision rests absolutely with the bishop or religious superior - so, the test can be both an assessment tool or a “weeding out” tool. However, if you are called to priesthood or religious life,there will be no need for weeding out - you really have nothing to fear as long as you are honest. Something that you might consider a weak point will not necessarily rule you out. The psychologist will be able to identify difficulties (if there be any) which could be overcome through counselling while at seminary. So, yes, there are some insurmountable impediments to studying for priesthood or religious life, but there are also impediments which can most certainly be overome - the psychologist will be able to make the right judgement.

As for the assessment being the most difficult part of the application process: as I said in my previous post, I found it more draining than anything else. There was a lot of talking and a lot of writing! Given that the assessment is all about you, you have all the answers - the interviews, on the other hand, are much different. They don’t last as long as the psychological assessment, but you will be faced with more challenging questions, and there may be several interviews (as in Br. David’s case!) - in my diocese, one has the psychological assesment, followed by an interview with three people (a preist and two laypersons), and finally an interview with the bishop. All of these sections will help the bishop piece together an idea of what sort of candidate he has before him - so try to think beyond the psychological assessment: it’s not the be-all and end-all of the process.

 

[Young_Thinker]

It has been awhile but from what I can recall.

Yes, personal prayer life was discussed. Did I have a spiritual director. The biggest emphasis was on my active life within the Church. Was I active in my parish, was I volunteering. What other forms of service was I living out.

I see. Thank you for describing your experiences.

 

[fish90]

You will be going into a situation that you are not familiar with. You will not know the psychologist… Of course you are going to be a bit nervous! But don’t worry about it. The psychologist will certainly understand.

The tests can help determine a candidate’s suitability - although the final decision rests absolutely with the bishop or religious superior - so, the test can be both an assessment tool or a “weeding out” tool. However, if you are called to priesthood or religious life,there will be no need for weeding out - you really have nothing to fear as long as you are honest. Something that you might consider a weak point will not necessarily rule you out. The psychologist will be able to identify difficulties (if there be any) which could be overcome through counselling while at seminary. So, yes, there are some insurmountable impediments to studying for priesthood or religious life, but there are also impediments which can most certainly be overome - the psychologist will be able to make the right judgement.

As for the assessment being the most difficult part of the application process: as I said in my previous post, I found it more draining than anything else. There was a lot of talking and a lot of writing! Given that the assessment is all about you, you have all the answers - the interviews, on the other hand, are much different. They don’t last as long as the psychological assessment, but you will be faced with more challenging questions, and there may be several interviews (as in Br. David’s case!) - in my diocese, one has the psychological assesment, followed by an interview with three people (a preist and two laypersons), and finally an interview with the bishop. All of these sections will help the bishop piece together an idea of what sort of candidate he has before him - so try to think beyond the psychological assessment: it’s not the be-all and end-all of the process.

What are some insurmountable impediments?

 

[Ocarm]

What are some insurmountable impediments?

I realise you are probably asking for for details of particular issues, but universal church law is relatively broad in this respect. This is deliberate, so as to grant latitude to bishops and religious superiors to use their judgement in relation to the individual as a whole person rather than in relation to a list of problems that might seem somewhat arbitrary. Nevertheless -

Canons 1026-32 of the 1983 Code of Canon Law are a general listing of bars to holy orders, including issues that might appear in psychological examination:

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P3Q.HTM

Canon 1041 lists some more specific psychological and behavioural problems, amongst others:

*Can. 1041 The following are irregular for receiving orders:

1/ a person who labors under some form of amentia or other psychic illness due to which, after experts have been consulted, he is judged unqualified to fulfill the ministry properly;

2/ a person who has committed the delict of apostasy, heresy, or schism;

3/ a person who has attempted marriage, even only civilly, while either impeded personally from entering marriage by a matrimonial bond, sacred orders, or a public perpetual vow of chastity, or with a woman bound by a valid marriage or restricted by the same type of vow;

4/ a person who has committed voluntary homicide or procured a completed abortion and all those who positively cooperated in either;

5/ a person who has mutilated himself or another gravely and maliciously or who has attempted suicide;

6/ a person who has placed an act of orders reserved to those in the order of episcopate or presbyterate while either lacking that order or prohibited from its exercise by some declared or imposed canonical penalty.*

See:vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P3S.HTM

In terms of religious life, canons 641-645 detail admission to novitiate:

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P24.HTM

Less specific reasons are given, although canon 642 does address psychosocial issues:

Can. 642 With vigilant care, superiors are only to admit those who, besides the required age, have the health, suitable character, and sufficient qualities of maturity to embrace the proper life of the institute. This health, character, and maturity are to be verified even by using experts, if necessary, without prejudice to the prescript of ⇒ can. 220.

Religious superiors are also able to add further impediments to universal law in terms of local or proper law that will apply to candidates for whom they are responsible.

More generally, the tests are looking for qualities - or their absence - that aid the candidate in living a life of service, the ability to form positive relationships, self-management of challenging emotions and situations, and a balanced and insightful view of self, other people, and the world at large.

Perfection isn’t being sought, but red flags are. An example - being inclined to getting angry when frustrated isn’t necessarily a major issue; but an explosive temper and subsequent violent outbursts would be. In other words, a lot of the examination is really a common sense assessment of the individual, not a means to follow complex or secret agendas.

I also found my assessments challenging and draining. But they were necessary, and only one aspect of the overall application procedure. It’s best not to build it up into something more significant than it really is.

 

[fish90]

Let us say a man used to be pro-abortion and so is guilty of grave scandal but not the physical act of killing the preborn, then repents and strives to fight the abortion plague. In that case, he still cannot be ordained. Am I correct?

What about a murderer from years ago?

How can ex-Protestants be ordained, since they (from what I understand) be guilty of the delict of heresy.

Best,
fish90

 

[Ocarm]

I’m actually no expert on canon law, but I’ll give it a go. Anyone with greater knowledge is free to correct me, of course.

Let us say a man used to be pro-abortion and so is guilty of grave scandal but not the physical act of killing the preborn, then repents and strives to fight the abortion plague. In that case, he still cannot be ordained. Am I correct?

No. He has been guilty of supporting an objective sin, but he has not performed or procured an abortion for someone. The canon is very specific, and canon law always means exactly what it says, and should not be extended beyond it’s precise wording.

What about a murderer from years ago?

As I understand it, this would require dispensation from the Holy See. But it can be dispensed, and so is not an absolute bar to ordination.

How can ex-Protestants be ordained, since they (from what I understand) be guilty of the delict of heresy.

A person cannot be guilty of heresy or schism until they are publicly affiliated to the Catholic church. Protestant converts are not capable of heresy or schism until they are received into the church, and through their conversion they have in fact made a public act of surrendering their previous affiliation.

 

[J_G]

i happened to be skimming through some stuff at the Pontifical College Josephinum and found their form for the psychological examination. it goes over the topics that will be covered.
it describes the examination procedure as such:

1. Clinical Interview with the applicant. *
2. WAIS-III with Verbal, Performance, Overall I.Q. and Subtest Scores
3. MMPI-2
4. One of the following projective techniques:

• Rorschach Ink Blot Test
• Draw-A-Person Test
• Incomplete Sentences Blank

1. One of the following tests of normal personality traits:

• Edwards Personal Preference Schedule
• 16 P-F
• Personal Orientation Inventory

1. The applicant is given a written report and the results are explained to him in a face-to-face session
   with the psychologist/psychiatrist.

II. *Clinical Interview: Please be sure to include the following:

A. Interpersonal Development
 Relation with Authority
 Outlook on Women/Men
 Inward/Outward Social Skills
 Self-Esteem

• Coping Mechanisms
• Previous Counseling
   Sufficient Human Growth
   Friendships
   General Physical Health

B. Emotional Health
 History of Anxiety or Depression
 Impulse Control
 Addictive Behaviors
 Ability to Deal With Anger
C. Familial History
 Family Unit: Dysfunctions
 Customs/Traditions
 Style of Discipline: Verbal/Physical Abuse
 Current Relationships
 Family’s Disposition to Applicant’s Potential Vocation to Priesthood
D. Sexual History
 Dating History
 Sexual Orientation
 Sexual Relationships and Experiences
 Sexual Abuse by Others to Self
 Sexual Abuse to Others by Self
 Self-Indulgences: Pornography, Masturbation, Internet Cybersex, etc.
E. Present Disposition Toward Chaste Celibacy
 Social Maturity
 Use of Drugs/Alcohol
 Gambling
 Indulgences: Food, Smoking, Caffeine
 Hobbies/Talents

 

[The_Old_Medic]

Sending a copy of the MMPI to the applicant to review, or to take, outside of the control of the examiner violates every precept of psychological testing (I know, I taught the subject on the Graduate level).

The answer is, the psychological screening is not nearly tough enough. Too many people are still faking their way into Seminary.

 

[AdvanceAlways]

What would y’all who have taken evaluations say is the biggest emphasis throughout the interview portion? I’m honestly nervous that when it comes to this point that I’d be so nervous (I get nervous with doctors in general) that I’d make a total mess of myself, even though I have nothing to hide or be nervous about haha.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

What would y’all who have taken evaluations say is the biggest emphasis throughout the interview portion? I’m honestly nervous that when it comes to this point that I’d be so nervous (I get nervous with doctors in general) that I’d make a total mess of myself, even though I have nothing to hide or be nervous about haha.

You just need to be honest with the examiner. Tell them this.

One of my exams happened to occur the day after a close uncle passed away. I was responding to the doctor and taking the tests then it occurred to me that some of my responses were off because of this. I asked to stop for a second and explained this to the doctor and he was happy that I did so as it did color what was going on.

 

[Ocarm]

I’m honestly nervous that when it comes to this point that I’d be so nervous (I get nervous with doctors in general) that I’d make a total mess of myself,

There’s nothing wrong with being nervous - it’s expected!

You would impress far less if you walked in blithely unconcerned about what may be part of the introduction to finding your path in life; when the stakes are that high, you should be keyed-up and aware of how important the occasion is.

The interviewer knows this, and expects you to be fully human - if you’re not, that’s where the problems begin.

As several of us have said here, this is a difficult process to undergo; but the intent isn’t to catch you out or diagnose you, but to ascertain that you have a range of human emotions and experiences. They don’t want you to be exceptional, just ordinary. Try not to make the experience into something more crucial than it really is, because although it is necessary and significant, it’s still only one aspect of the overall process of application.

Best wishes in your ongoing discernment.

 

[AdvanceAlways]

There’s nothing wrong with being nervous - it’s expected!

You would impress far less if you walked in blithely unconcerned about what may be part of the introduction to finding your path in life; when the stakes are that high, you should be keyed-up and aware of how important the occasion is.

The interviewer knows this, and expects you to be fully human - if you’re not, that’s where the problems begin.

As several of us have said here, this is a difficult process to undergo; but the intent isn’t to catch you out or diagnose you, but to ascertain that you have a range of human emotions and experiences. They don’t want you to be exceptional, just ordinary. Try not to make the experience into something more crucial than it really is, because although it is necessary and significant, it’s still only one aspect of the overall process of application.

Best wishes in your ongoing discernment.

Thanks! I think some of my nerves have stemmed from a seminarian friend of mine who, knowing my fear of shrinks and doctors, decided it would be fun to blow the evaluation portion way out of proportion to freak me out.