Well, at least you believe in total depravity.The question at hand has never been whether God’s grace is required - we all agree it is. The question is whether we have the free will to accept or reject that grace. If we don’t have the free will to do that, we simply don’t have free will.
What was warped about Calvin’s view of humanity?This is another point on which a key chunk of Protestant theology doesn’t make much sense. If we lack free will, why adult baptism rather than infant baptism?
Calvin’s warped view of humanity strikes me as neo-Gnosticism.
So much theological error stems from not understanding Christ’s fully human, fully divine nature and emphasizing one over the other.
The tragedy of humanity is that we can be so much holier than we are, yet choose not to be.
We can excuse ourselves from this ingratitude to God in any number of ways, one of which is by embracing the notion that we are not free at all.
Adam was tempted because he had free will, as did Eve. One presumes God has no need of puppets.
If Adam was free from the effects of free will, what drove him to choose evil?answer: he was able to be tempted because he had free will.
your friend doesn’t believe in free will. and that is where he is messing up with his circular logic, his question to you was circular logic as well.
the explanation of the answer is: without free will, adam would not have needed to be tempted/lied to in order to get him to “take a chance.”
your friend also does not take into account that before the fall, adam and eve were full of grace. yet, they fell from grace upon the eating of the tree of KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL. theology of the body has some interesting commentary on this whole incident.
a calvinist is the same as satan with their lies and deceits. they are directly responsible for the poisoned minds of the sspx’ers. they are also responsible for existentialist and nihilistic philosophies and ideologies. their religion started in germany and france and that is the same area where the sspx’ers started and are based now. those regions of the world are still infected with calvinistic beliefs to this day. the sspx’ers do not believe in free will either. they are against the document on religious liberty and other vatican 2 documents… all because of calvin’s influence and rejection of free will and their being nurtured in an environment where calvinism flourishes.
I assume by “free will”, you mean original sin. If so, the answer is:If Adam was free from the effects of free will, what drove him to choose evil?
Free Will is the choice to do what you want to do. If you sin, no one forced you to. There are several things that can effect this choice.Well, at least you believe in total depravity.
What do you mean by “free will”? In other words, what exactly is “free will”? Is it just the ability to choose between two or more things, or is there something else to it?
Yup…I meant “original sin”.I assume by “free will”, you mean original sin. If so, the answer is:
Arrogance. “you could be like gods”
Really?Well, at least you believe in total depravity.
No, I don’t believe in total depravity. I believe, as I said (and as the Church teaches), that we cannot come to God without his grace. How he went from that to total depravity, I don’t know.Really?
Vocimike, you agree with this statement from Calvinator’s namesake?
“The will is so wholly vitiated and depraved that it is incapable of producing anything but evil.”
this is another trick question or example of circular reasoning.If Adam was free from the effects of free will, what drove him to choose evil?
See Post 46this is another trick question or example of circular reasoning.
try again
restate your question in a correct way and i will answer you
what is warped about calvin’s view of humanity is that he believes all men are depraved and are sinners. he actually believes everyone is evil. or he just says they are. that’s not how god sees us and that is not how he made us.What was warped about Calvin’s view of humanity?
Let’s assume Adam had free will. Why then did he choose to sin if he was completely free from the effects of original sin?
Your are absolutely right. The gift of faith is a totally unmerited gift from God. We each, by our free will (again a gift from God) can either accept or reject that gift. God’s love is unconditional and He wants us to love Him unconditionally. That is why He gave us the gift of free will.No free will?
We believe in free will to be lost and wicked without God.
We believe man after the fall is totally DEPRAVED, and unable to come to faith on our own. Men cant promise, earn, or merit salvation, its rather a gift of God. Scripture, the breath of God, fully and wholly supports this position
I didn’t realize that I was in a debate, I simply asked a question so there is no “trick” to it. If you don’t want to answer the question than don’t answer it.this is another trick question or example of circular reasoning.
try again
restate your question in a correct way and i will answer you
keep in mind that i believe in free will. and i believe that god created humanity with free will.
adam was not DRIVEN to eat the fruit. he was offered it and he accepted it. pretty simple.
If one believes that there is “original sin”, I don’t see how one would disagree with Calvin.what is warped about calvin’s view of humanity is that he believes all men are depraved and are sinners. he actually believes everyone is evil. or he just says they are. that’s not how god sees us and that is not how he made us.
the truth of the matter is that calvin has an evil mind. not everyone is as evil as calvin. calvin refuses to even acknowledge god’s goodness when you really examine his attitudes and beliefs.
when god made us, he was happy with what he made. he said everything he made was good. he was pleased with himself and his works. we are one of his works.
when adam ate the fruit, his mind changed. he suddenly was ashamed of himself. he didn’t think he was good. he hid and covered himself.
he suddenly was ashamed of his body. he saw himself as bad. he saw eve as bad and he saw god as bad.
he blamed god for giving him the woman but he should have blamed god for planting that tree there. his mind really got messed up. it was like a bad drug.
You need to do more than provide proof texts.Really?
Vocimike, you agree with this statement from Calvinator’s namesake?
“The will is so wholly vitiated and depraved that it is incapable of producing anything but evil.”
I don’t know much about “total depravity” but I found an article about TULIP by Jimmy Akin and the concept is apparently one that Catholics can agree with. We can do nothing without God’s grace.Really?
Vocimike, you agree with this statement from Calvinator’s namesake?
“The will is so wholly vitiated and depraved that it is incapable of producing anything but evil.”
I do think we hold similar views about total depravity but you are right, we are far apart on several other issues.I don’t know much about “total depravity” but I found an article about TULIP by Jimmy Akin and the concept is apparently one that Catholics can agree with. We can do nothing without God’s grace.
But that is a far cry from the notions that (a) God’s grace is compelling (no free will), and (b) God only offers his grace to a select few.
Is Calvin so poor a writer or thinker that he does not mean what he said?You need to do more than provide proof texts.
What did Calvin mean by the above words?
You didn’t answer the question. What does reformed theology mean by total depravity?Is Calvin so poor a writer or thinker that he does not mean what he said?
Were the Puritans so deluded in their thinking that they took him too literally?
Or do you believe Calvin’s view of humanity to be no different than the Catholic Church’s view?
That would certainly be a novel premise.
See Post 46
it is a trick question. and i did answer it and i removed the trick from it. please re-read it againI didn’t realize that I was in a debate, I simply asked a question so there is no “trick” to it. If you don’t want to answer the question than don’t answer it.
If Adam was created without the effects of original sin, why did he choose to disobey God? If you would like, substitute Eve for Adam.