How will Pope Francis impact traditionalists?

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Why would you think there might even be a remote possibility of this? :confused:

What has he done so far that would even make that thought cross your mind? Just curious.
The same thing that allows me to conceive the remote possibility that there are hostile alien beings waiting on the proto-planet Pluto for a signal from the Vatican to destroy the human race.

Einstein supposedly once opined that if there is even a remote possibility that something COULD happen, there is a high likelihood that it either already HAS happened, or that it WILL happen before the Universe comes to an end.

There is, for example, a remote possibility that you will spontaneously combust before you come to the end of your natural life…

I heartily suggest however that you NOT spend your life lugging around a fire exitinguisher.

They are hardly a stylish accessory in the fashion world these days.
 
It is far too early to second guess our new Pope Francis, but it is not too early to see that he is not a staunch traditionalist. It will be interesting to see where he takes us and where the Holy Spirit guides him and us. I do think traditional Catholics who are looking for a return to the days of yesteryear with Latin masses and head coverings and all the trappings of the old church are in for a rough ride. If he really intends to help the poor and carry out the teachings of Jesus, then he is going to have to move all of us out into the people. That is, in my opinion, a great choice. If every Catholic in America, for instance, were to stand up tomorrow and simply say, “there will be health insurance coverage for every American,” it would happen. We are a BIG group of people. We have no moved toward change as a group in a long, long time. If and when we do, it will be interesting and I hope, amazing.
 
Like many others on this thread, I think it is much too early to be making predictions about how this new Pope will treat Traditionalists. I can tell you one thing that has me impressed is that he openly declared to his fellow South American bishops and priests that abortion even in cases of incest and rape is a moral evil.
 
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To Speramus and SpartanCop:
It is not my practice to respond to baited and deliberate misquotes of mine. Instead, I prefer to quote our new Holy Father with whom I agree with respect to unity:

“On the other hand, the Paraclete unifies all these differences, not making them equal but in harmony with one another,” he explained.
 
That is, in my opinion, a great choice. If every Catholic in America, for instance, were to stand up tomorrow and simply say, “there will be health insurance coverage for every American,” it would happen. We are a BIG group of people.
and how would we do such a thing? How would we pay for it? How would we implement it? Its well and good to have desires for all people to have food, shelter, medicine, etc…but there has to be a practical component to the philosophy.

This, I think, is what makes me nervous: not a fear that Pope Francis isn’t a good and holy man - he most certainly is - but that he might be doing things and pushing things with consequences that are neither entirely known, nor desirable.
 
The same thing that allows me to conceive the remote possibility that there are hostile alien beings waiting on the proto-planet Pluto for a signal from the Vatican to destroy the human race.

Einstein supposedly once opined that if there is even a remote possibility that something COULD happen, there is a high likelihood that it either already HAS happened, or that it WILL happen before the Universe comes to an end.

There is, for example, a remote possibility that you will spontaneously combust before you come to the end of your natural life…

I heartily suggest however that you NOT spend your life lugging around a fire exitinguisher.

They are hardly a stylish accessory in the fashion world these days.
Lol of course I knew you were joking about the alien thing and whatnot… nonetheless I got the impression that you did have some sort of reservation about our new Pope. But perhaps not.
 
and how would we do such a thing? How would we pay for it? How would we implement it? Its well and good to have desires for all people to have food, shelter, medicine, etc…but there has to be a practical component to the philosophy.

This, I think, is what makes me nervous: not a fear that Pope Francis isn’t a good and holy man - he most certainly is - but that he might be doing things and pushing things with consequences that are neither entirely known, nor desirable.
The Pope is the Vicar of Christ. That means that Christ works vicariously through the Pope. We either believe that or we don’t.

Our knowledge or desires are not relevant. That Christ is working through His Holiness is all that matters to me.

We either believe that he is the Vicar of Christ or we don’t. If we really believed that, and if we really trusted God, then there would be no fear.

-Tim-
 
The Pope is the Vicar of Christ. That means that Christ works vicariously through the Pope. We either believe that or we don’t.

Our knowledge or desires are not relevant. That Christ is working through His Holiness is all that matters to me.

We either believe that he is the Vicar of Christ or we don’t. If we really believed that, and if we really trusted God, then there would be no fear.

-Tim-
So you believe that the Pope is protected from all error, doctrinal and personal? As I’ve expressed already, I fully believe the church is protected by the Holy Spirit from propogating corrupt doctrine. I do not believe this means the Pope can never make a mistake on anything. And I believe that this is the same view held by Pope Benedict, and supported by historical evidence.
 
and how would we do such a thing? How would we pay for it? How would we implement it? Its well and good to have desires for all people to have food, shelter, medicine, etc…but there has to be a practical component to the philosophy.
How have other countries achieved this universal medical coverage? The US wouldn’t exactly be a trailblazer in this regard.
This, I think, is what makes me nervous: not a fear that Pope Francis isn’t a good and holy man - he most certainly is - but that he might be doing things and pushing things with consequences that are neither entirely known, nor desirable.
Well outside the Vatican, the Pope no longer exerts any temporal power. The damage he can effect is therefore very limited. Popes in the past (the very near past in fact) have made suggestions about social policy. It the past is any indicator, governments will continue to ignore them, especially in this very secular age. The US and Canada ignore even the most basic human right in spite of the popes’ exhortations, the right to life. Why should we therefore worry that they will start implementing their economic suggestions?

Personally I’m no worried. I think the Holy Father will certainly invoke a call to greater holiness and social justice that should be an important part of any national debate. How we move towards that justice, however incremantally if at all, will largely be decided by the people through their elected leaders. I don’t expect any radical change in the US. In the US and to a lesser extent Canada, the parties that espouse two key Church views, life and social justice, are at the opposite ends of the political spectrum.
 
Call me naive, but I’m not sure I understand what the concern is.

First, the man has not been pope a week.

Second, whatever he does we just have to live with it. He’s the pope. We’re not. End of story.

I was watching an interview on the news. It was a sister and a Protestant minister. They journalists were asking the same question. “Where is this pope leading the Church and what do you think he’s going to focus on?” Something like that . . .

The Protestant gave a rather simple answer. The sister went on and on. I just sat there and thought to myself, why would a religious even speculate. I can see a non-Catholic, because the idea of a pope, obedience, and authority of the Holy See is a foreign country to them. But it should not be foreign territory for a sister or any Catholic for that matter. We have 2,000 years of experience with the papacy. We know that no two popes are alike. The each have their style and their agenda. At the end of the day, whatever we want or don’t want may or may not happen and we have no power over that. So why dwell on it?

I remember something that Archbishop DiNoia said not too long ago. I’ll paraphrase, because I don’t have the quote. The subject was Vatican II and the SSPX. He said something to the effect that it was incomprehensible to him that the SSPX or anyone should be having such a problem with Vatican II. He went on to explain how in a Dominican priory this was a non-issue. You do as the Church says and you focus on the duty of the day. You don’t spend time thinking theology.

I also remember something that someone posted here. The poster had visited a Cistercian house. The monks said something to the effect that they do not think theology, because it interferes with the life of faith.

Last night, I saw a program with Dr. Martin and Dr. Hahn. Both said the same thing. If you want to live the faith, don’t think theology, don’t think liturgy, don’t think law, just be faithful to the sacraments, to the moral teaching of the Church and to charity.

During my weekly lesson to the brothers, I told them that they don’t own the pope. They don’t pay his salary. They don’t bind and unbind. Only the pope does. It is a waste of their energy and time to try to second-guess what the man is thinking.

As I said, call me naive; maybe we’re doing too much second guessing. It’s fun to try to guess what the other player is going to do. As long as we keep in mind that this is only a mental exercise, not a real issue, because we have no real control, then we’re fine. The minute that we take the fun out of it and make it a real concern, our blood pressure is going to rise.
 
Last night, I saw a program with Dr. Martin and Dr. Hahn. Both said the same thing. If you want to live the faith, don’t think theology, don’t think liturgy, don’t think law, just be faithful to the sacraments, to the moral teaching of the Church and to charity.

During my weekly lesson to the brothers, I told them that they don’t own the pope. They don’t pay his salary. They don’t bind and unbind. Only the pope does. It is a waste of their energy and time to try to second-guess what the man is thinking.

.
Thank you for sharing this.
 
Thank you for sharing this.
You’re welcome.

Here is an excellent example of why we shouldn’t second guess this man or any other pope for that matter.

I have been saying that one of the delights that many of us who are religious are having with this pope is that he is a regular pope. We have not had a regular pope in about 150 years, give or take a decade.

Today, he announced that the superior general of the Franciscans and the superior general of the Jesuits will be by his side concelebrating with him at the inaugural mass. This has not happened in forever. It has been Church tradition that these superiors general hold a special place in the Church. They have the same ordinary authority as bishops do, even though there has not been a bishop/superior general since St. Bonaventure who was a cardinal. That was almost 800 years ago.

The tradition of the authority and deference given to the Franciscan and Jesuit superior general has long been part of the Catholic tradition. Yet, how many traditionalists knew this? Very few, if any. Why not? Because most popes after 1800 have been secular men. Because this deference has been given behind closed doors, many people have missed it. Were it not for concelebration, we would not be seeing this part of our Catholic tradition.

Here is something that may not add up to an impact, but it certainly catches the attention of those who are watching closely. I can see some traditoinalists say, “I didn’t know this.”

Unfortunately, I can also see some radical traditionalists and radical liberals being critical of it too.

The point is that we can’t second-guess and we can’t dictate to a pope. We go with the flow and we remain faithful to the sacraments, prayer, and charity.
 
Today, he announced that the superior general of the Franciscans and the superior general of the Jesuits will be by his side concelebrating with him at the inaugural mass. This has not happened in forever. It has been Church tradition that these superiors general hold a special place in the Church. They have the same ordinary authority as bishops do, even though there has not been a bishop/superior general since St. Bonaventure who was a cardinal. That was almost 800 years ago.
What a WONDERFUL thing! Thanks for telling us. I will be watching closely. 👍 😃

How his election must fill you all (religious) with so much joy !

God Bless
 
What a WONDERFUL thing! Thanks for telling us. I will be watching closely. 👍 😃

How his election must fill you all (religious) with so much joy !

God Bless
Male religious are ecstatic. I can’t speak for sisters and nuns; but I imagine that many are as well.
 
Defining a traditionalist would be outside the scope of this thread.
Why is this outside the scope of this thread. If we cannot define what a traditionalist IS, how can we answer the question? What exactly IS a traditionalist?
 
Why is this outside the scope of this thread. If we cannot define what a traditionalist IS, how can we answer the question? What exactly IS a traditionalist?
Somewhere else–not on Catholic Answers–I made a point (it had something to do with Patrick Madrid’s critique of the SSPX), that there isn’t a clique on one end of the spectrum whose members can be classed “progressive Catholics”, a clique in the middle called “centrist Catholics” and a clique on the other end called “traditional Catholics”.

It’s much more of a spectrum, and individual Catholics probably shift around quite a bit along that spectrum. I deem myself a “traditionalist” Catholic who wishes that more of my fellow-traditionalists would invest a bit more energy into social issues like poverty and peace. (Many traditionalists seem to have bought into libertarian/neoliberal politico-economic views which I feel at odds with the breadth and depth of Catholic social teaching).

But there are some bedrock consistencies which make the language of “progressive” or “traditional” more meaningful than not. Traditionalists emphasize the Magisterium of the whole Church from Scriptural times to the present, with an especial emphasis on those aspects of Magisterial teaching which are hoary and venerable with tradition. They view innovation, change, and progress with a jaundiced eye–indeed they expect the Church at some point to be infested top-to-bottom with Satanic change-agents seeking to blunt the efectiveness of the Church and to deceive if it were possible the very Elect.

So–without overemphasizing the apocalyptic worries of traditionalists too much–they worry when “the Spirit of Vatican II” ushers in changes and innovations to the way things have been done for centuries, when JPII and BXVI meet in ecumenical gatherings, and even when Francis refuses to wear the red hat, stole, and shoes long emblematic of the pope’s willingness to die for the Faith. It stirs in at least the back of our minds that perhaps the Great Apostasy is upon us, that the Chastisement is soon to befall us, that we might indeed live to see the day of the great ruined city where priests and prelates and a Bishop Dressed In White are martyred on a mountainside.

Apart from this sort of overstated concern: traditionalists emphasize tradition because they believe progress and modernity are sterile, barren, divisive, and caustic. They point to the way even moderately-articulated changes in the post Vatican II era led to declines in vocations, emptying of pews, constant overt dissent, and general malaise. It was the re-emphasis of something more traditional by John Paul II–NOT a traditionalist hero, generally speaking, but giving him his due–furthered by Benedict XVI, which brought a sense of organic wholeness and wholesomeness back to the Body of Christ.

So–traditionalists are those who emphasize tradition out of a belief, whether overtly articulated or inwardly feared–that to depart therefrom may lead to some terrible catastrophe.

Hope this helps a little.
 
It is an excellent explanation. But it also demonstrates that what drives traditionalists is fear. Christ was fearless or perhaps more correctly, in the face of his own fear, he pressed forward no matter what… Perhaps traditionalists need to reconsider their position and live by his example. Fear is the great crippler in all things, including the Catholic Church.

We’ll see what the future holds under Pope Francis. I welcome change. I embrace change. It is only through change and the growth required of change that we progress.
 
It is an excellent explanation. But it also demonstrates that what drives traditionalists is fear. Christ was fearless or perhaps more correctly, in the face of his own fear, he pressed forward no matter what… Perhaps traditionalists need to reconsider their position and live by his example. Fear is the great crippler in all things, including the Catholic Church.

We’ll see what the future holds under Pope Francis. I welcome change. I embrace change. It is only through change and the growth required of change that we progress.
The impression perhaps extends from my desire to tell the answer in a dramatic and somewhat entertaining fashion.

Yet the anticipation of suffering brings with it some measure of anxiety, yes. Perhaps you forget the Agony in the Garden, the “Eli! Eli! lama sabachthani” from the Cross.

After the trial, of course, comes the reward. After the crucifixion, the Resurrection and the Life. After the Warning and the Chastisement, a period of Marian peace. After the Apocalypse, the Kingdom Without End.

But more than these hopes are the promises that the Faithful, by their works and prayers, can sometime forestall the ending. If we pray the Rosary, if Russia is properly consecrated, if we cry out for Divine Mercy, the Termiminus can perhaps be moved back a piece in God’s timetable.

So it is not fear so much as hope which move traditionalists, think I. Hope that What Must Be need not be fulfilled in our time, if only we can find the thing which will move God’s heart to one more little season of forebearance. And hope again, knowing that is What Must Be Will Be–that this portends only the coming of New Heavens and a New Earth.

Nuff said. Now back to our regularly- scheduled programming already in progress.
 
I think the biggest impact that I have seen or sensed with traditionalists (being defined as those with a devotion towards the EF) is that they will be, if not already, very disappointed,

Hopefully the Spirit will guide them in a broader vision, a more universal vision. Or so I pray.

I sense disappointment, a tinge of bitterness or dismay, or something, to some extent (which, based on human brokeness, is a lack of faith in God’s plan, IMO anyway).

We have Francis for a reason, our human ego aside. And we, especially those of us in the cultural west, have massive egos.
God have mercy on us.
 
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