How will Pope Francis impact traditionalists?

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I know of a six-mass-er. 2 vigil masses and a 4 sunday masses, the fourth being a spanish mass. I think schedules like this are common at large suburban parishes.

On topic, I agree with JReducation, and also think that while it appears from the history of the Pope that he doesn’t have much personal interest in the Tridentine Mass (it actually appears that much of Argentina has little interest in it either. From an examination of some of their diocesan sites it appears that few Latin liturgies are offered), this does not rule out the possibility that he will make proclamations about the liturgy. And this is just an observation, but I don’t think someone with his inclusive personality (again that’s just the sense I get from his words over the past week) would be the kind to declare a mass “wrong” and the people who like it “wrong.” So the Extraordinary Form seems safe, it’s just a question of whether he will make any new initiatives related to it or not, which is unclear.
 
I have a bit of a hard time believing that… But if they are, then of course they are wrong. I’m sure you can talk to many people about the benedictines at Clear Creek Monastery. The place is austere, solemn, and secluded. Even the liturgy is austere to a degree-no polyphony, or grand baroque motets. But just because the liturgy is that way, does not mean that rubrics or solemnity is compromised. Indeed, the Abbey is able to publicly offer most of the major hours of the office, along with low mass and High mass daily. Keeping in mind that High mass is supposed to be the standard & not the exception, this is a very good fruit for the church in the Americas.

http://clearcreekmonks.org/gallery-...ear-creek-abbey-Cardinal-Burke-visit-5964.JPG

http://clearcreekmonks.org/gallery-...ear-creek-abbey-Cardinal-Burke-visit-5966.JPG

And even among the Franciscans, you still have those that celebrate solemn mass, with great dignity. As I understand it, most traditionalists don’t care so much about opulent externals, so much as they care about the liturgy in the Extraordinary Form offered with love and care for the mass expressed in as devout and precise expression possible.

This can be seen at Our Lady of Guadalupe Friary of the Franciscans of the Immaculate. As such, it is clear that religious traditions of the Franciscans & other religious groups is not incompatible with the EF liturgy. One does not have to be just a franciscan or just an adherent to the 62 missal to be ‘traditional’. One can be both.

youtube.com/watch?v=4frzb-mre2Y
I was not speaking about liturgy. One must remember that liturgy is one part of Catholic tradition. What some traditionalists are concerned with are things like:
  1. the tiara
  2. the mozzetta
  3. the red shoes
  4. walking among the crowds
  5. simple vestments for mass
  6. emphasis on being the Bishop of Rome rather than on being the Pontiff
  7. he didn’t wear the pontifical stole on the loggia except to bless the people and then took it off
  8. he stood outside the parish doors greeting parishioners as they came out of mass, as if he were a parish priest
  9. he won’t wear the gold pectoral cross
  10. he won’t ride the papal limo (though he does ride cars)
  11. he hugs and kisses people and lets them hug and kiss him
One person went as far as saying that the new pope is behaving in an “undignified manner beneath his station”

I found that statement stunning.
 
Dear Br. JR

Thank you for your elaborations on how consecrated regulars (esp. Jesuits and Franciscans) view their role as clergymen, it really helped me understand the behaviour of our Holy Father and his approach to the Papacy! And I’m rather happy to see that he’s obviously staying faithful to the tradition of his own order 🙂
 
I have a bit of a hard time believing that… But if they are, then of course they are wrong. I’m sure you can talk to many people about the benedictines at Clear Creek Monastery. The place is austere, solemn, and secluded. Even the liturgy is austere to a degree-no polyphony, or grand baroque motets. But just because the liturgy is that way, does not mean that rubrics or solemnity is compromised. Indeed, the Abbey is able to publicly offer most of the major hours of the office, along with low mass and High mass daily. Keeping in mind that High mass is supposed to be the standard & not the exception, this is a very good fruit for the church in the Americas.

http://clearcreekmonks.org/gallery-...ear-creek-abbey-Cardinal-Burke-visit-5964.JPG

http://clearcreekmonks.org/gallery-...ear-creek-abbey-Cardinal-Burke-visit-5966.JPG

And even among the Franciscans, you still have those that celebrate solemn mass, with great dignity. As I understand it, most traditionalists don’t care so much about opulent externals, so much as they care about the liturgy in the Extraordinary Form offered with love and care for the mass expressed in as devout and precise expression possible.

This can be seen at Our Lady of Guadalupe Friary of the Franciscans of the Immaculate. As such, it is clear that religious traditions of the Franciscans & other religious groups is not incompatible with the EF liturgy. One does not have to be just a franciscan or just an adherent to the 62 missal to be ‘traditional’. One can be both.

youtube.com/watch?v=4frzb-mre2Y
Thanks for the pictures, lovely! Will look at link later on.🙂
 
Dear Br. JR

Thank you for your elaborations on how consecrated regulars (esp. Jesuits and Franciscans) view their role as clergymen, it really helped me understand the behaviour of our Holy Father and his approach to the Papacy! And I’m rather happy to see that he’s obviously staying faithful to the tradition of his own order 🙂
You’re very welcome. I’m glad that it helped. I was a little worried, because it’s a difficult concept to explain on a post that limits you to 6,000 letters, especially when there is no one single book on the subject. It’s really a matter of tradition and a lot of pieces of writing here and there. I would only add one thing to what I said, the vows are not just for clergy. There are many male religious who are not clergy and of course there are cloistered nuns too. These folks make solemn vows. About 40% of Franciscans are not priests. I don’t know how many Jesuits are priests. I would suspect that more than 90%.

I was also concerned, because for some people it may be tedious reading. They may already know it or may not be interested in knowing about solemn vows. Personally, I think that given the fact that it’s been so long since a religious has been pope and the fact that this is the first Jesuit, it’s important for Catholics to understand some things about religious life, especially about Jesuit life. Otherwise, much of what the pope does, how he does it, how he preaches and even what he focuses on will confuse some people and they may think that it’s something new.

It is and it’s not. It’s new to us, because we have not had a Jesuit pope. It’s not new to the Church, because the Jesuits have been around since the 16th century. I noticed that his homily for the inaugural mass was full of Franciscan theology, but the delivery was very very Jesuit. Rather than being specific about this or that, it focused on one concept. That’s a very Ignatian way of teaching. You identify a point and you build around it. You don’t bring in five points into your teaching.

People may be left wondering why he didn’t mention this or that. The answer is simple. It’s not the Jesuit thing to do to speak about this and that. The Ignatian method is to speak either about this or that. Later you speak on whatever you did not touch today.
Thanks for the pictures, lovely! Will look at link later on.🙂
Those pictures are awesome. The photographer is excellent.k I’m very impressed by how he or she captured the rays of light coming through the windows. That’s not easy to do.
 
Bro.,
Thank you for more detailed explanation. It is very helpful. 🙂
Those who took/take the time to read it will be able to put Pope Francis in the context of his being a Jesuit, at least I hope so. 🙂

God Bless.
 
How will Pope Francis impact traditionalists? Well, it’s too soon to tell. Given that there are no approved diocesan TLM’s in Buenos Aries, it may be that the Holy Father does not hold a favorable view of the EF, but since he hasn’t specified his objections, if they exist, it’s difficult to speculate.

But even if he isn’t well-disposed towards the TLM, then I think that Fr. Z has some good advice. In a recent article, he suggests that traditionalists get to work in helping out with the poor, and to also be willing to do all of the hard work involved in trying to get the EF implemented in their parishes, if necessary. I think it’s an excellent idea for trads to help out in working for the poor and needy. It’s something that is always needed, and may go a long way towards changing perceptions of trads by non-trads. Although traditional Catholics do volunteer in the area of pro-life work, of course, which is much-needed as well. Sadly, those who are oppsed to the TLM will try to find ways to make trads look bad, no matter what.

One thing that I think that traditional Catholics will appreciate about our new Holy Father is that he is outspoken and forthright. He tells it like it is, which is a wonderful thing. Liberals aren’t going to like him.
 
The Remnant has a matter of fact article on it’s site now. Don’t know if I am allowed to post a link so go to the site if you want to read it.

Even though the Pope is apparently not friendly to Traditionalists the article points out there is little if any interest in the TLM in South America. Even the SSPX has just a tiny presence. So you need to keep that in context.It’s not on the radar there it seems.

Interesting read with the author having lived in South America for a number of years. Check it out.
 
Even though the Pope is apparently not friendly to Traditionalists the article points out there is little if any interest in the TLM in South America.
Neither are English Masses there. What’s their point?
 
Maybe it’s me but doesn’t anyone else find the term “simple people” somewhat degrading if not condescending or offensive?

I admit “Keeping things simple” sounds like a nice slogan but in reality is any creature of Creation that simple?
It must be you PV, as I find it refreshing to go back to being “simple”.

I don’t see that as a bad thing, more of the way I should have been all along-
meaning I don’t really need all my toys, enough clothes that I don’t need to do laundry for a month, every premium channel on cable, or the latest, newest gadget.

IMHO life is very simple, we need food, shelter, clothing and someone to love and to love us. We humans are the ones who make it complicated. All the other stuff is just that- stuff.
 
Pope Francis then reflected on what he called the “trinity of communication: Truth, Goodness and Beauty”. “We are not called to communicate ourselves, but this trinity…the Church exists to communicate Truth, Goodness and Beauty”.
This is good news, and not only vis-a-vis the liturgy.

I think that is a general truism that should be consciously applied even when a Catholic is writing a book about Christianity or some aspect of it. I think Catholics generally have a feeling that if someone has the faith, then they will also love their faith, and love always seeks to honour with care those things that are beloved or the source or expression of our faith, or what is loved. Now of course that is a form of externalism - literally judging a book by its cover - but it is not completely false or erroneous. I prefer a dignified, beautiful bible exactly because I love the bible; similarly with so many other things. Owning a beautiful Bible is one way of expressing or signifying that I believe this Book is good and supremely worthy of human consideration. I want people to be attracted to it, so that they can enjoy and share the same love I have for it, and consequently we be unified in a common love. Indeed, all art seems in its own way to try to attract our minds to reflection or consideration. All art tries to communicate something. Notwithstanding, I wont not own a bible simply because there are no beautiful bibles to be found.

Externalism, I think, only becomes a problem when something of a higher priority or something essential or necessary is lost or abandoned for the sake of the external, which might itself be necessary but remains secondary (all Sacraments, e.g., necessarily require a use of something external: words and things (or at least acts)). Again, faith is useless without active charity; charity, in its turn, always strives (or at least sincerely and really desires when this is not possible), for peace and unity in all things. We as Catholics know that our faith does not profit us if we do not also have active charity - if we do not have true love. For Catholics, I think, this is why we put so high an importance on unity or the unity of the Church, even if it means having to accept things we may not like or prefer. That unity is our common love of Christ and His Church: it is our fulfilment, at least in part, of the Commandment to love God and neighbour.
 
IMHO life is very simple, we need food, shelter, clothing and someone to love and to love us. We humans are the ones who make it complicated. All the other stuff is just that- stuff.
Ask any physician if he finds a human “simple.” Or a biologist or a psychologist, for that matter.
 
Ask any physician if he finds a human “simple.” Or a biologist or a psychologist, for that matter.
It’s just semantics, PV. Your take is going to be intellectual, as if the virtue of simplicity is outdated somehow. Here’s the statement in context:
The name of “Francis” by which we shall now know him evokes for us the Holy Father’s evangelical spirit of closeness to the poor, his identification with simple people, and his commitment to the renewal of the Church
Any scholar of scripture knows that Our Lord Jesus preferred the “anaweim” - simple, childlike, unemcumbered, poor in spirit – and he praised such virtue as being the requisite for entering His Kingdom. Remember?
 
It’s just semantics, PV. Your take is going to be intellectual, as if the virtue of simplicity is outdated somehow. Here’s the statement in context:

Any scholar of scripture knows that Our Lord Jesus preferred the “anaweim” - simple, childlike, unemcumbered, poor in spirit – and he praised such virtue as being the requisite for entering His Kingdom. Remember?
Must be the English translation that bothers me then?
 
The Remnant has a matter of fact article on it’s site now. Don’t know if I am allowed to post a link so go to the site if you want to read it.

Even though the Pope is apparently not friendly to Traditionalists the article points out there is little if any interest in the TLM in South America. Even the SSPX has just a tiny presence. So you need to keep that in context.It’s not on the radar there it seems.

Interesting read with the author having lived in South America for a number of years. Check it out.
I read in some other article that the then archbishop of Buenos Aires has provided a priest and a space for the celebration of the EF within 48 hours after SP was promulgated. However, the EF has not taken off in that city, not because of the archbishop, but because there is not an interest on the part of the faithful nor are there priests interested in celebrating it.

This is where the Latin mass movement sometimes rubs people the wrong way. One has to be very careful. When there is a group that wants the EF, there should be support for that group. When there is a priest who wants to celebrate it, unless he is a religious, the bishop should help him resolve such things as scheduling conflicts, etc in order to celebrate it.

On the other hand, when there is not an interest or there is no priest who wants to celebrate it, we should not make it our mission to impress it upon people.

This is when it comes across as if we have two Catholic Churches side by side and that they are in competition. We want to avoid this impression. It does not represent the Church well. There is one Church. There is only one Roman Rite, not two. There is the freedom to choose between the two forms of the Roman Rite.

Those who oppose the EF and those who push it are equally wrong. There is nothing to oppose. The Tridentine form has been part of our history as much as many other forms. It has a place in the Church. To deny it that place is a mistaken understanding of ecclessiology. Until the Church formally abolishes it, which I doubt will ever happen, no one has a right to oppose it.

On the other hand, the Tridentine Form is the extraordinary form. It is not the norm and it is the not the mind of the Church to make it the norm. Therefore, it is wrong to campaign in order to “convert” (observe quotation marks) others to the Tridentine Form. People should come freely as they would to anything else that is optional. There should be no attempt to sell them something that they don’t need.

In the case of Buenos Aires, one gets the impression that they don’t need the Tridentine Form. If they needed it, they would have more of it. If the story is true that the archbishop provided a space and that there was a priest available within 48 hours, then there is no EF, because there was no further interest. That happens.
It’s a very beautiful letter. I love the fraternal spirit of it.
Maybe it’s me but doesn’t anyone else find the term “simple people” somewhat degrading if not condescending or offensive?

I admit “Keeping things simple” sounds like a nice slogan but in reality is any creature of Creation that simple?
Not at all. Again, as I have said many times this week, this is where the faithful, all of us, will have to get used to the MO of religious life. The expression “simple people” is found in almost every rule and constitution of religious life. We serve simple people. We are called to be simple people. Christ came for simple people. He lived among simple people and so forth. These expressions are all over the writings of religious founders and their sons.

Because we have not had a religious pope in so long, the Catholic community has not heard this term too often. It’s not part of the vocabulary of typical secular clergy. The secular clergy is not part of the simple people. It’s usually part of the middle class. This kind of language is not too common in that population. You do find it here and there. It’s not totally absent either.
 
Not at all. Again, as I have said many times this week, this is where the faithful, all of us, will have to get used to the MO of religious life. The expression “simple people” is found in almost every rule and constitution of religious life. We serve simple people. We are called to be simple people. Christ came for simple people. He lived among simple people and so forth. These expressions are all over the writings of religious founders and their sons.
Brother JR, if people were simple, then they wouldn’t need computers to simplify their lives. :)🙂
 
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