How will sedevacantists "know" when a "real" Pope is elected?

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kwitz:
I guess that’s why I started the thread - I couldn’t see anyway out of the logic they were using and was curious to see how they saw it. So far no sedevacantist but Joe Omlor has attempted to explain by what criteria they’ll be able to know when we “finally” have a pope again - which leads me to believe it might be because they don’t know what that criteria is.
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The sedevacantist logic is not twisted at all.
It was prior to understanding the SV position that I had be a mental contortionist to try and understand and justify what was going on in the church. The SV position is the only one that makes any sense at all. I love the true Catholic Faith and want to be able to practise it as my Catholic ancestors did but I cannot do that in the Novus Ordo Church.

Your question is a fair one Kwitz, I will not deny that.
Some traditionalists believe that the state of things is now so serious that only God Himself can fix it and will do so in His own good time. This being in itself a great act of faith in Him.
All I know is that because of my knowledge of the Catholic Faith (which was passed on to me by good Catholic parents) I know that things are not right at present and that the new religion lacks the four marks that identify the Catholic Church.
One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic.
This can only be found in the True Religion which I now hang onto with both hands. So it will not be a matter of a pope meeting “our” criteria but rather a pope who meets the criteria of the Catholic Church as it always was.
God Bless.
 
Sorry Kwitz, I replied before I read your previous post.

Most trads I know believe that Paul V1 and JP2 “stacked the conclave” with like minded men in order to make it seemingly impossible to obtain another real pope. In other words they believe that Vat 11 deliberately set out to destroy the Church as it was.
In recent years JP2 has talked about modifying the papacy etc.
So maybe they want to put an end to it altogether?
We believe in the Papacy and want a real Pope again who will allow us the freedom to practise the True Faith without having to go underground as is happening now.
We must pray like mad that things will be straightened out so that God will be represented worthily on earth by His Vicar and worshipped as He deserves.
 
In one of my E-Letters I wrote about Fr. Lucian Pulvermacher, who, after many years of service to the Church, left his religious order and concluded that there was no reigning pope. He started his own organization and achieved a small following.

After many years he said that it was time for the Church to have a pope again. There were no validly appointed cardinals, since all living cardinals had been appointed by anti-popes, which meant there were no electors. Pulvermacher decided that the authority to elect a pope must have devolved upon his own followers, since they constituted the whole of the true Church.

It was not especially surprising that they elected Pulvermacher, who took the name of Pius XIII.

Other sedevacantist groups have taken similar routes: an initial disaffection by one or more priests; the gathering of a small following; a period of time during which the followers come to identify themselves as the remaining true Church; a decision to elect a new pope; the election of one of the founders.

Sometimes the election is by ballot, sometimes by divine intervention: The presumptive pope declares that God has revealed to him that he is now the successor of Peter. The methodology is not important. What counts is the result: Our guy has been chosen, which means we followers have a special place.

I have yet to hear of one group of sedevacantists accepting the pope that was chosen by another group.
 
Karl,

Thanks once again for your (name removed by moderator)ut. It’s obvious why you are the founder of Catholic Answers. Since I’m not a sedevancantist I cannot recommend you to the position of Pope. However, if I were a sedevacantist I just might support your ascension to the chair. As a sedevacantist I would, however, have one condition before I would support you. You would have to take the Pontifical name of “Pope Karl the Clarifier.” 😃
 
Queen of Sheeba:
When one is elected who will agree and comply with the teachings of the CATHOLIC CHURCH !
Either the Vat2 boys are RIGHT and all previous teachings are incorrect OR previous teachings were correct and the Vat2 boys are WRONG. One can’t have it both ways as they contradict one another.

Personally, I believe that the first thing a real Pope would do is recind Vatican 11, as this is the source of all the rot we are copping today.
It’s fruits are there as proof for anyone who cares to look.

With most of my friends, and even family members now having lost or abandoned their faith. The “Faith of our Fathers” is looking pretty good to me right now!
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All vatican II did was restate what has always been beleived and the boys as you called them are the Bishops or the catholic church, apostolic succersors and in union with the succesor to Peter. Do not confuse the abuse of vatican 2 with it’s actual teaching…

vatican 2 is the faith of our fathers.
 
Vatican 11 might be the Faith of your fathers but it is not the Faith of mine. The new relgion of Vat 11 is a stark contrast to the one I was taught both by my parents and the nuns at Primary School.
By Secondary school we were being indoctrinated with the new religion and had to attend the N.O.
I cannot even send my kids to a Catholic School for fear they will loose their faith just as 99 per cent of my Secondary classmates did.
I find it hard to respect the clergy (priests and bishops)who whoosed out big time, sold us out and sent us down the gurgler. However I apologise if you were offended by my term “Vat2 boys”
 
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Pax:
Karl,

Thanks once again for your (name removed by moderator)ut. It’s obvious why you are the founder of Catholic Answers. Since I’m not a sedevancantist I cannot recommend you to the position of Pope. However, if I were a sedevacantist I just might support your ascension to the chair. As a sedevacantist I would, however, have one condition before I would support you. You would have to take the Pontifical name of “Pope Karl the Clarifier.” 😃
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“Pope Karl the Clarifier” would certainly be better than “Pope Pulvermacher”. :nope: .

By the way if you haven’t already seen their website (www.truecatholic.org), it’s a hoot. I especially like the photos of their “conclave” out in the boonies with the white smoke rising up from the cabin chimney… :dancing: And the fact that the “Pope” lives in an undisclosed location. Hey, so does Dick Cheney! And I didn’t even know he was Catholic!

I’m sorry, but some of this is just so much nonsense…

Blessings.
 
MR. KEATING,

The groups who take matters into their own hands and have gone about “electing” these so-called popes should not be confused with those of us who prefer to leave things in God’s hands.
Most (in fact all) the sedevacantists I know, will not have a bar of these men and never have!
I feel that very often, those who are opposed to sedevacantists highlight these groups and hold them up as representing all of us when they in fact do not!
 
Queen of Sheeba:
The groups who take matters into their own hands and have gone about “electing” these so-called popes should not be confused with those of us who prefer to leave things in God’s hands.
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I’m sorry Queen but I still don’t get how you’re different from the group(s) Mr. Keating spoke of. They truly (but incorrectly) believe that they’ve left it in God’s hands and therefore appointed, elected or by some other method arrived at Pope Somebody.

The way I see it, you’re left with the two options I wrote of before.

Either 1) you trust the next the conclave to elect a valid pope - which logically leads to the question of how a similar conclave could let the gates of hell prevail by electing JPII.

or 2) it is impossible to elect a valid pope and once again the gates of hell have prevailed.

Please tell me if there are other choices that I’m missing.

Kris
 
Queen of Sheeba:
Vatican 11 might be the Faith of your fathers but it is not the Faith of mine. The new relgion of Vat 11 is a stark contrast to the one I was taught both by my parents and the nuns at Primary School.
By Secondary school we were being indoctrinated with the new religion and had to attend the N.O.
I cannot even send my kids to a Catholic School for fear they will loose their faith just as 99 per cent of my Secondary classmates did.
I find it hard to respect the clergy (priests and bishops)who whoosed out big time, sold us out and sent us down the gurgler. However I apologise if you were offended by my term “Vat2 boys”
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Could you please show me a vatican II document that is contrary to previous church teaching…?

What you are speacking is not Vatican but abuses of what it taught…
 
RICHARD.

EXAMPLE No 1.

VAT.11
“This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, continues to exist (subsists) in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him. Nevertheless, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside its visible confines.” Lumen Gentium.
PREVIOUS TEACHING
A) “We must mention another fruitful cause of evil by which the Church is afflicted at present *, namely: Indifferentism, that vicious “vice-filled”] manner of thinking which holds that eternal salvation can be obtained by the profession of any faith, provided that a man’s morals are good and decent. Seriously consider the testimony of the Savior that some are against Christ because they are not with Christ, that they scatter who do not gather with Him, and therefore without doubt they will perish in eternity unless they hold to the Catholic faith and observe it WHOLE and INVIOLATE.”
Pope Gregory XVI
B) “If anyone says that the condition of the faithful and that of those who have not yet come to the true faith is equal: let him be anathema.” I Vatican Council

C) “Neither the true faith nor eternal salvation is to be found outside the Holy Catholic Church. Neither salvation nor salvation can be found outside the Catholic Church. It is a SIN to believe that there is salvation outside the Castholic Church.”
Ven. Pope Pius IX
D) “All graces given to those outside the Church are given them for the purpose of bringing them inside the Church.” St. Augustine*
 
Would a sedevacantist agree that all Native Americans who lived between the time of Christ and the colonization of the western hemishpere is now in hell?
 
Joe Omlor said:
The restoration of the Tridentine Mass and cessation of the NOM would be a start.

Revocation of the V2 documents that are heretical and ambigious, and unable to be reconciled with Tradition.

That is just a start.
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We can’t decide what is and isn’t reconciled with Tradition.

Catholic Tradition is not what one thinks it ought to be, or what one is accustomed to, but it is what the Church tells us it is. Those who object to Vatican II in the name of Catholic Tradition, contradict Tradition by taking it upon themselves to judge what is and what is not Catholic Tradition.

Thus wrote Pope Leo XIII:

“There can be no doubt that the decisions of the Holy See or those of General Councils … are by themselves and by their very nature obligatory on all the faithful.”

and Pope Pius IX:

“…the Ecumenical Council is governed by the Holy Spirit … it is solely by the impulse of this Divine Spirit that the Council defines and proposes what must be believed…”

and Cardinal Newman:

“[what a] General Council speaks is the word of God.”

Anything to the contrary is simply private interpretation of Tradition, like private interpretation of Scripture.
 
So, back to the original question: How will you know when one has been elected? You say that you wait for God to act, but by what standard will you recognize his workings?
 
I think the initial question of this thread is a valid question, and one which sedevacantists have to ask themselves. I have noticed many allusions and declarations (mostly on other threads) that sedevacantists are schismatics. Yet, the Church clearly teaches that if one has any reason to doubt the PERSON of the pope he cannot be considered schismatic. At least 3 references were provided by Joe Omlor on a different thread which is now closed but can still be viewed. So I think in fairness the first thing you all should do is accept that sedevacantists are NOT per se schismatics.

Then after you have taken the time to refer to some websites (provided by some of the sedevacantists) with a non-cynical attitude and read the examples given as to why they think the current hierarchy, including JP2 have deviated from the True Faith you will understand that they are left no alternative but to recognize that he could not possibly be the Vicar of Christ.
Even though this leaves sedevacantists in a position where it is unknown exactly how this interregnum will end, it also leaves them in a position where there are no contradictions to the teachings of the Church or lack of logic in their position. Whereas to accept JP2 would necessarily require a DIRECT denial of the doctrine of Indefectibility, so this is not a viable option.

I agree with Joe Omlor’s ideas on how the next pope will be recognized. I am strongly against splinter groups taking matters into their own hands and this is just one of the MANY sad results of the tumultous times that the reign of Modernism has created.
Meanwhile, we can clearly recognize who is NOT the pope (as the first requirement is: undeniable, unambiguous profession of the one True Faith and categorical opposition to any form of Modernism or any other heresy). The references mentioned before provide clear examples as to why JP2 does not fulfill these requirements.

However, I strongly emphasize for all those Catholics (obviously this means those who do not deny any dogmas/doctrines of the Faith nor have excommunicated themselves in any other way) who after assessing the situation honestly and prayerfully cannot see JP2 does not fulfill the requisites and therefore believe him to be pope then that is your right and I most emphatically will NOT criticize you. If your loyalty to JP2 really represents your loyalty to the Papacy it is to be strongly commended.
All Catholics must love the Papacy and sedevacantists are definitely among them!
 
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kwitz:
I’m sorry Queen but I still don’t get how you’re different from the group(s) Mr. Keating spoke of. They truly (but incorrectly) believe that they’ve left it in God’s hands and therefore appointed, elected or by some other method arrived at Pope Somebody.
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No - they have taken it upon themselves to elect their own “Popes” I don’t belong to any organised group. I simply don’t believe that what is coming from Rome these days is Catholic. And as I am serious about my faith I am not about to cash in my Catholic heritage for a plastic pontif and his bogus novus ordo!

I pray to God that he will fix things quickly but I know He will only do it in His own good time, which may only be when people wake up and demand their Church back!
I want my children to know the one true faith as I was taught it, and I want my friends who have abandoned their faith to find their way back again.
I also have good Protestant friends who say there is no need to convert to Catholicism because there is so little difference between them and the “Catholic” Church of today. How true!
 
Queen of Sheeba:
RICHARD.

EXAMPLE No 1.

VAT.11
“This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, continues to exist (subsists) in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him. Nevertheless, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside its visible confines.” Lumen Gentium.

PREVIOUS TEACHING
A) "We must mention another fruitful cause of evil by which the Church is afflicted at present , namely: Indifferentism, that vicious “vice-filled”] manner of thinking which holds that eternal salvation can be obtained by the profession of any faith, provided that a man’s morals are good and decent. Seriously consider the testimony of the Savior that some are against Christ because they are not with Christ, that they scatter who do not gather with Him, and therefore without doubt they will perish in eternity unless they hold to the Catholic faith and observe it WHOLE and INVIOLATE."
Pope Gregory XVI
B) “If anyone says that the condition of the faithful and that of those who have not yet come to the true faith is equal: let him be anathema.” I Vatican Council

C) “Neither the true faith nor eternal salvation is to be found outside the Holy Catholic Church. Neither salvation nor salvation can be found outside the Catholic Church. It is a SIN to believe that there is salvation outside the Castholic Church.”
Ven. Pope Pius IX
D) “All graces given to those outside the Church are given them for the purpose of bringing them inside the Church.” St. Augustine

Noting in that vatican 2 quotes says the people outside of the faith have the fullness of truth, but elements of truth…

And augustines statement is still tru today,however the church also recognizes that there are many who are not catholic through no fault of their own. This is not the same as moral equivalency…
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Karl Keating:
… The presumptive pope declares that God has revealed to him that he is now the successor of Peter. The methodology is not important. What counts is the result: Our guy has been chosen, which means we followers have a special place.

I have yet to hear of one group of sedevacantists accepting the pope that was chosen by another group.
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Sedevacantists do not accept the false mini-popes of the conclavists, any more than followers of JP2 accept them.

As the term denotes, sedevacantists believe the See is vacant.

Anyone who accepts these, mini-popes or any claimant to the papacy, is by that very fact, not a sedevacantist, even if they were once.

The sedevacantists, who do not presume to elect popes, realize that a bona fide pope would not only be traditional in faith, but would also be accepted by all genuine traditional Catholics, not just a handful of them.

Joe
 
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ralphinal:
Would a sedevacantist agree that all Native Americans who lived between the time of Christ and the colonization of the western hemishpere is now in hell?
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Hmmm…no answer yet…I’ll keep waiting this one will be enlightening!
 
Queen of Sheeba:
RICHARD.

EXAMPLE No 1.

VAT.11
“This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, continues to exist (subsists) in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him. Nevertheless, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside its visible confines.” Lumen Gentium.
PREVIOUS TEACHING
A) "We must mention another fruitful cause of evil by which the Church is afflicted at present , namely: Indifferentism, that vicious “vice-filled”] manner of thinking which holds that eternal salvation can be obtained by the profession of any faith, provided that a man’s morals are good and decent. Seriously consider the testimony of the Savior that some are against Christ because they are not with Christ, that they scatter who do not gather with Him, and therefore without doubt they will perish in eternity unless they hold to the Catholic faith and observe it WHOLE and INVIOLATE."
Pope Gregory XVI
B) “If anyone says that the condition of the faithful and that of those who have not yet come to the true faith is equal: let him be anathema.” I Vatican Council

C) “Neither the true faith nor eternal salvation is to be found outside the Holy Catholic Church. Neither salvation nor salvation can be found outside the Catholic Church. It is a SIN to believe that there is salvation outside the Castholic Church.”
Ven. Pope Pius IX
D) “All graces given to those outside the Church are given them for the purpose of bringing them inside the Church.” St. Augustine

Ummmm…no contradiction here.
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