How would you answer this from a fundamentalist?

[JRKH]

An e-mail I got:

“The Bible and the facts of Jesus’s life, death and ressurection, are the ONLY, let me repeat in case you didn’t hear. ONLY hope for this nation and our planet. There is one way to heaven, and Catholic pomp and circumstance, with it’s Mary worship (I saw her statue cry!!!) coupled with ritual for rituals sake, certainly won’t get you there. No my misguided friends, the only way to heaven, and Jesus said it so if you “disagree” you aren’t disagrreing with me, you’re disagreeing with HIM- is to place your faith in him adn his atoning death on that cross, some 2008 years ago on Golgotha, ask him to take off those blinders and come into your heart and make you a new person, and then repent and live for HIM from this day forward.”

I can answer the Mary worship part but the statues with tears - which the church has affirmed in some cases. Not sure on that. Ritual for rituals sake - not too sure on that.

Any suggestions are appreciated!

Actually a lot of what your frien is saying is perfectly agreeable. Mary worship and mindless Ritual will not get one to heaven. Thankfully we don’t worship Mary and Ritual is just the surroundings of a True and deep faith.

Of course Obeying Jesus by following Him in His Holy Church is a Huge Plus.

As for Weeping Statues and the Bible, would Moses Staff being turned into a snake fit? It is God animating an inanimate object for His Own Purposes and demonstrates the power of God.
Jesus also cursed a fig tree and it died.
Additionally Jesus Promised that if we had faith the size of a mustard seed we could move mountains. Perhaps the faith of someone is sufficient to generate tears from a statue.

Something else that may be of some help is to let your friend know that the Church traditionally approaches such claims very skeptically. A lot of proof is required before such things get a seal of approval. The vast majority are explained or otherwise dismissed.

Hope this helps a little.

Peace
James

 

[MDK]

An e-mail I got:

I can answer the Mary worship part but the statues with tears - which the church has affirmed in some cases. Not sure on that. Ritual for rituals sake - not too sure on that.

Any suggestions are appreciated!

The reference to rituals for rituals’ sake is referring to their belief in Salvation by “Faith Alone”, and “once saved, always saved.” If you believe in these two, then the sacraments would be useless. We know better, and the sacraments are wonderful.

There are very good resources on Catholic Answers for these.

You can also say that you agree that Christ is the Way, Truth and the Life. The Catholic Church was built by Christ, who is the Head of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is His Body, and His Bride, which He protects from error in faith and morals and which the gates of Hell will not prevail. It’s only in the Catholic Church that we really have the best chance to know and be truly close to Christ, through the sacraments, especially the Holy Eucharist which can bond us to Him (if we receive worthily and with state of expectant faith, like the woman who touched His garment with expectant faith… others had touched Him in the crowd, but nothing happended for them because of their lack of faith).

Becoming a Christian and being “born again” means being born of water and the Spirit being Baptism. When one is Baptized, then one is in the Church. One is not born again simply by accepting Jesus into their heart, although it is a nice start.

In addition, once you have blown away their false belief in “Bible alone” as the authority as being an unscriptural man made tradition, some of this may be unnecessary, but still may be nice.

 

[Mimi]

Hi all,

Sounds to me like it’d probably be a waste of time & energy responding to this person, rein. Some Fundamentalist’s are just out to spew their views, in a fervor they believe is generated by God, but since they are not in the One, Holy Catholic, Apostolic Church, they can go off and believe whatever they want. Also, most are not really willing to listen, in my experience.

OTOH, this could be a wake-up call for you to really get to know your faith better.

Go back to the Catholic Answers site and click the link on anti-Catholicism. I think you’ll find many interesting articles there. If not, write back and I’ll give you some book titles.
Try this: catholic.com/library/Anti_Catholic_Whoppers.asp

Carl Keatings’ Catholicism and Fundamentalism should get you pretty far. It’s not a thin book, I’ll warn you. I see it’s available at ignatius.com

Happy reading & learning!

Mimi

PS God Bless!

 

[MDK]

Sounds to me like it’d probably be a waste of time & energy responding to this person, rein. Some Fundamentalist’s are just out to spew their views, in a fervor they believe is generated by God, but since they are not in the One, Holy Catholic, Apostolic Church, they can go off and believe whatever they want. Also, most are not really willing to listen, in my experience.

OTOH, this could be a wake-up call for you to really get to know your faith better.

You don’t want to struggle with them, especially without setting a foundation for authority, as you’re not on anything close to a level playing field. You have truth with you when you understand and believe in the Catholic teachings, and they have their own unscriptural beliefs that they’ll claim are truths. With a few select questions, you let them see that they are on the wrong side. I equate it to an Aggie joke here in Texas. Asking a fundamentalist to show where the Bible teaches “Bible alone as authority,” why “faith alone” would be believable in light of James 2:24; and why they don’t believe the church is the foundation and pillar of truth as shown in 1 Tim 3:15, is like asking an Aggie to sit in the corner of a round room. What you’ve done, is now put them on the defensive to prove what they’re saying is true (which if they’re honest, they’ll find it is not). Sometimes, it takes these guys off their high horse. Who knows, it might lead them to eventually find the right path, even if they seem far off it now. If you find they’re dishonest, then discontinue immediately, as you’ll really get nowhere and be frustrated. It’s just their evil at that point.

I second the advise to use this as an opportunity to learn your faith. I believe that God allows us to be challenged for this purpose. I’ve learned more about the Catholic faith in some areas after being challenged.

 

[Patrick60]

There was a novel written several years back by Frank Peretti called “The Visitation” in which a crucifix sheds tears, which are touched by a janitor cleaning the church, which knock him out, then heal him of his arthritis.

I think he’s referring to this. You’d be surprised how people get their information about the Catholic Church. Frank Peretti has written some very good books(read Tilly for an excellent pro-life story), but this one had alot of subdued antiCatholicism. The novel paints a caricature of the church and really doesn’t represent it at all accurately. There are some people out there who get their information about the Church solely from antiCatholic literature. Most of it is not difficult to refute.

My experience of God in the Catholic Church is much richer than this silly example. I have never seen a statue cry. But I have cried before statues, one of which was the most moving representation of Jesus in Gethsemane I have ever seen. The anguish, yet the resolution and determination on His face were inspiring. So in this case, the tears were all mine. Ask these people if they have a picture of their family in their wallet. I can’t see the difference between a photograph of someone you love and a statue. Though there is a difference between an image and the real thing.

Some people tend to get a little silly, I think.

 

[Ohwesty]

I don’t understand why Catholics get into endless debates with non-Catholics over religion. Most of the questions aren’t genuine; like the Pharisees who tried to trick Jesus. There is no quest for truth in these silly email debates.

It seems that both sides are just trying to win an argument, they already have their Q’s and A’s well rehearsed. This isn’t evangelization. It’s not even communication. It’s a contest to see who can have the last word.

Tell your friend to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, at least he should know what he’s rejecting. Our Lord gave us the best advice on how to handle this: Shake the dust from your sandals…

but first ask him where he got the Bible.

• Westy

 

[jimcav]

This is a simple question. Is there a Biblical precedent for weeping statuews and such? Apparently not. Judging from the lack of repsonses or the shutting my “handle” out as one above suggested. It affirms in a way the fuindamentalist poster. There is no basis for this kind of stuff in Chritianity.

That is cool. You all are affirming him. Guess that is why he is not Catholic.

Sorry rien, but I found this post rather shocking coming from a Catholic. Don’t blame anyone here, when with alittle work you could find the answers yourself. Catholic Answers is a wonderful place to find out about the faith, but it cannot take the place of reading for yourself.

I think you need to learn your faith through reading books from the early Church fathers, your Catechism, and other Catholic apoligetic literature before you get into a verbal battle with this fundamentalist. Right now, he is likely to sway you, instead of you swaying him…

 

[po18guy]

An e-mail I got:

“The Bible and the facts of Jesus’s life, death and ressurection, are the ONLY, let me repeat in case you didn’t hear. ONLY hope for this nation and our planet. There is one way to heaven, and Catholic pomp and circumstance, with it’s Mary worship (I saw her statue cry!!!) coupled with ritual for rituals sake, certainly won’t get you there. No my misguided friends, the only way to heaven, and Jesus said it so if you “disagree” you aren’t disagrreing with me, you’re disagreeing with HIM- is to place your faith in him adn his atoning death on that cross, some 2008 years ago on Golgotha, ask him to take off those blinders and come into your heart and make you a new person, and then repent and live for HIM from this day forward.”

I can answer the Mary worship part but the statues with tears - which the church has affirmed in some cases. Not sure on that. Ritual for rituals sake - not too sure on that.

Any suggestions are appreciated!

This is the product of such profound ignorance, such open contempt for truth, such demon-lead misinformation, that I don’t believe you should respond at all. If this is from a close friend, plan on them drifting away, as they are sorely blinded by the darkness of the the spirit of antichrist.

You need only pray that this almost invincible ignorance be overcome by the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit. The demonic component here is that whoever assembled this pap is a person who hates the Catholic church and then claims to love Christ. You cannot separate the two!

If you feel you must reply, ask them why they use a Catholic document, “the bible” as the foundation of their faith. In that aspect, they are Catholic as well. This assertion will likely keep them away from you by itself!

A lot of this “stuff” is generatd by the evil one, to draw the elect away from the one true church, as well as to discourage the faithful. It has been heard at least since the Protestant rebellion. Notice that it does not question the validity of the LDS, the JWs, or the 30,000 plus other Protestant denominations with which they disagree.

It is demonic.

I suggest a free CD from John Martignoni at: www.biblechristiansociety.com. He has many which will armor you up against the onslaught of ignorance and evil spirits.

Christ’s peace be with you.

 

[angelusm]

Please tell the fundamentalist that death and resurection of Jesus are VERY important for Catholics It seems that he doesn’t know about it yet…
We don’t worship Mary, we venerate her. We worship God only.
I’m not sure what the fundamentalist doesn’t like about the crying statue of Mary. It happens indeed and the meaning of it is quite obvious: sins of the world cause a great pain to both Jesus and Mary. She wants to express their sadness and calls people to repent and to convert.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

So Catholics don’t have an answer. Other than to block sender. Funny, the e-mail from the fundamentalist said Catholics had no answer to this and would run from it. You may be affirming that.

It isn’t that we have no answer, it is that we are following the words of Christ, “Cast not your pearls before swine.” The author of that e-mail is not looking to dialogue or to learn, his tone shows that he is only interested in Catholic bashing.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

So Catholics don’t have an answer. Other than to block sender. Funny, the e-mail from the fundamentalist said Catholics had no answer to this and would run from it. You may be affirming that.

Nonsense. You are being combative on this score.

Are you always a Biblical positivist, demanding that proof texting be offered from Scripture for any Tradition or tradition?

Eucharistic miracles are sensible enough “This IS my body” comes to mind.

Looking through the New Testament experience, any number of other signs and wonders come to mind… I am not sure why or what more one need demand as evidence God can do what God will do.

 

[RobbyS]

Nonsense. You are being combative on this score.

Are you always a Biblical positivist, demanding that proof texting be offered from Scripture for any Tradition or tradition?

Eucharistic miracles are sensible enough “This IS my body” comes to mind.

Looking through the New Testament experience, any number of other signs and wonders come to mind… I am not sure why or what more one need demand as evidence God can do what God will do.

To this one might add that Cathyolics don’t make such a hard and fast dinctions between thge natural and supernatural. “Miracles” are signs from God and they take many forms, vfrom the weeping statues to an illuminating flash that lets our minds cut through to the truth of things.

 

[Hunho]

How about this response:
I’ll ask my mother to pray for both of us.

 

[Highwayhound]

The suggestion to not respond is good advice.

Now just as an example - Moses did speak to a rock and water was brought forth. So it is not out of the realm of possibility for the omnipotent Creator of the universe to again have water in the form of tears come out of a rock shaped like a handmaiden of God, in this case the blessed virgin Mary.

A better recourse though would be along the lines of Saint Maximilian Kolbe and his approach to such matters. St. Kolbe dared to love God so fully that he had no enemies. He would pose for photos with German soldiers upon request (I believe in one photo a statue of Mary is there, although I cannot tell if she is crying).

May we all love God as St. Kolbe did.

 

[distracted]

An e-mail I got:

“The Bible and the facts of Jesus’s life, death and ressurection, are the ONLY, let me repeat in case you didn’t hear. ONLY hope for this nation and our planet. There is one way to heaven, and Catholic pomp and circumstance, with it’s Mary worship (I saw her statue cry!!!) coupled with ritual for rituals sake, certainly won’t get you there. No my misguided friends, the only way to heaven, and Jesus said it so if you “disagree” you aren’t disagrreing with me, you’re disagreeing with HIM- is to place your faith in him adn his atoning death on that cross, some 2008 years ago on Golgotha, ask him to take off those blinders and come into your heart and make you a new person, and then repent and live for HIM from this day forward.”

who does “ritual for ritual’s sake”??? There is a reason for every ritual the Church does… I don’t profess to understand what all the reasons are for all the various rituals… but that doesn’t mean they aren’t good ones…

Jesus established ONE earthly Church… ask the person which Church is it? (out of the 35,000 different ones to choose from )

He thinks the bible can save because that is all the knows… he doesn’t know about a Chruch where Jesus actually ABIDES 24/7… (the Real Presence… ). The RP is more real than the presence of a human being sitting next to you… because JESUS is… well… Jesus…

Of course this person doesn’t love the Church… never has heard of it… just probably hears what anti-Catholic protestants say about it…

He is to be commended for appreciating the Word of God… (produced by the Catholic Church… the NT anyway)… He is “1/2 Catholic” already…