How would you counter this Baptists' argument that the Sacrament of Confession is not necessary, nor is any distinction between perfect and imperfect

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I asked, regarding his sins in personal prayer how he knows they are forgiven. People saying they feel forgiven or think they’re forgiven is presuming God’s mercy, and probably the pinnacle of sin.

He responded with 1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
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Was left a little bit stumped because I used the “plain reading” from John 20 to talk about how Christ said “if you forgive anyones sins they are forgiven” and He said nothing more after that. But he pulled out this Reverse Uno card on me and I has got me pondering.

Ultimately I said that if this was the way Christianity ultimately formed then the way the Sacrament of Confession works must be divine revelation and a fundamental, built-in part of the Christian faith.

How would yall counter this?
 
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TexasLoneStar said:
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
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The verse does not say confess to God alone.

This is what the scribes all so believed, and Jesus set them did not agree with them.

(Mar 2:6 KJV) But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
(Mar 2:7 KJV) Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
(Mar 2:8 KJV) And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?

(Jas 5:16 ESV) Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.
 
Don’t get me wrong, the Catholic Sacrament of Reconciliation is totally a good thing since its institution, and the early church fathers would agree with this. But I’m just throwing it out there that technically, It’s not absolutely necessary if you are baptized (and all your sins by mortal and venial are forgiven) and then you consequently never mortal sin again. But that’s a stretch because I personally don’t know anyone who hasn’t needed confession.

That being said, 1 John also talks about sin that is deadly and not deadly. One you can pray for forgiveness and one that Paul says otherwise. Which would indicate that something (cough* Reconciliation) is necessary to forgive a mortal sin. The church father’s are also a VERY good resource for vindicating Catholic doctrine, but that’s of course if hes even willing to look at the quote with the whole “bible alone” argument, which Catholics of course don’t agree with, and protestants can’t back up.

Also, when Jesus says “whosoever sins you forgive are forgiven…etc.” he is talking to the apostles not to everyone that walks the earth. The whole Protestant/Catholic thing basically comes down to who has the authority over the church anyway, which is a much deeper argument, but again…comes down to the church fathers, that almost always agree with Catholic teaching.
 
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John 20: 22-23. And if he looks very carefully , he’ll see that Our Lord instituted the Sacrament of Penance the same day He rose from the dead.

IOW, the Sacrament of Penance is the “resurrection” of the soul, because it restores sanctifying grace, the Divine Life of God, in the soul.
 
I think this argument is about the authority of the Church. If “feeling forgiven” is good enough, then why confess at all?
 
TexasLoneStar said:
How would yall counter this?
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I wouldn’t.

After 74 years, I have found that some activities are a waste of time, and some are profitable. Among those wasting time is trying to convince someone not Catholic that the Church is right. I have not yet found where the crowbar is to open their minds.

Among those profitable is being a team member for RCIA; 25 + years of working with people who are open-minded.
 
John 20, 20-23:

21 …As the Father has sent me, so I send you."

This means that this authority comes from God, through Jesus, to those who will become apostles.

Verse 22 is beautiful because, as @(name removed by moderator) said, it is the second of two times in the Bible when it is recorded that God breathed on man. The first time is, of course, when He created man. That is how powerful this is.

23 “Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

This verse is not talking about sins people committed against the apostles. It is talking about the sins people have committed against God. And how are the apostles supposed to know what sins people have committed, unless they confess them by speaking?

Adam and Eve confessed their sin. God already knew what they had done. He still wants people to confess sins, and He gave us Jesus, in whom all the priests act in persona Christi during confession. And they have since the time of the apostles, and through apostolic succession.

The Catholic Church is the only church that can be traced back, in an unbroken, successive line, all the way back to the apostles. The Baptists try to say they can be traced back to John the Baptist, which is laughable. John Smyth founded the Baptist church in about 1609. What is interesting, is he baptized himself. Is that how the Bible said to do it? Did Jesus do it that way?

It is very timely and fitting that this is the sacrament Jesus gave the apostles after he was resurrected after dying for our sins.

One reason your friend might have dismissed John 20 is because a lot of non-Catholic Christians lump them together with the Great Commission in Matthew 28:19. They see it as the beginning of the Gospel because it is just before Jesus ascended to Heaven. It either means that to them, or it means, “be nice to each other.”

1 John 8-10 is a reminder about the danger of self-deception. We cannot forget we sin, but we also must remember we have Jesus who died so our sins may be forgiven.

Someone who has committed a grave sin, needs to have perfect contrition to be forgiven by God. See 1 John 5:16,17. The ordinary way we do this is through confession for mortal sins. Venial sins can be taken care of by going to Mass, or praying to God for forgiveness.

Why would a priest retain, or withhold, forgiveness? Because he feels the penitent does not have contrition.
 
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I like how Dr. Scott Hahn explains it in one of his books. If just confessing to God alone was all it took, then why make the Israelites go through animal sacrifice for forgiveness of sin? They also had to go to the temple and have a priest involved. If you look at the way the Church does Reconciliation, it has everything thing from the Old Covevenat as apart of Confession, with Jesus as the lamb. The book is “Lord, Have Mercy” I believe. He explains it much better than I can.
 
One can’t go by feelings. St. Ignatius talks about this in the rules of discernment for his Spiritual Exercises.
 
GladTidings said:
Why would a priest retain, or withhold, forgiveness? Because he feels the penitent does not have contrition.
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Not quite. If a penitent goes to confession and says for example that he got drunk, the first time the priest may give him absolution. But if the same penitent keeps on getting drunk, going to confession and saying for example: "Bless me, Father, for I have sinned. I got drunk 5 times… ", the priest has an obligation to tell him that he has to avoid the occasion of sin, e.g. taverns, bars, parties where there is alcohol, otherwise he can’t give him absolution. If it persists, e.g. the penitent confesses “…I got drunk 6 times and I’m glad I got drunk, 'cause it feels good.”, the priest then has to tell the penitent that he cannot absolve him because the penitent is not intent on avoiding the occasions of sin where he knows he will get drunk.

Maybe one of the CAF priests could confirm it?
 
Would it be so terrible to believe that each mentioned mentioned in the bible are ways God wants us to seek forgiveness for our sins, because He wants us to seek His mercy and grace?

God knows His children… so He made it possible for us to perform the Sacrament of Reconciliation or simply ask for forgiveness, in a way that we will not only ask for it, do it, recieve it, and be able to accept His love mercy and grace, in a manner in which we believe we truly have it?

God wants us to seek forgiveness from each other Matthew 5:23-24 before we come to Him. He wants to make sure we have nothing against one another, we are okay with each other, so our minds are not burdon with other things so will be clear to hear Him.

God wants us to confess our sins out loud. He knew that some of His children after confessing something, they may feel unworthy of forgiveness, they would need to hear they are forgiven, to know they are forgiven, so He gave the Apostles the power to forgive. John 20: 22-23

God wants us to forgive each other, so He told His Apostles to also teach, what we bind on earth, we bind in heaven. He wants us all to understand we have to let things go, not hold grudges with one another, to free ourselves of our anger against each other. Matthew 18:18 When we do we have peace, forgiveness not only from God but from each other. He wants us to know when someone asks you to forgive them, you should, not only will that free from the sin of anger but those who sinned against you are also free from anger… you know what I mean?

God wants to forgive us, in order to do that we must confess, so for His children who would not be able to go the person they sinned against, or to another person. He made it know to them they can go directly to Him. 2 Corinthians 7:14, 2 Peter 3:9. God will hear you and He will change you, after you humble yourself before Him. Him who knows you better then you know yourself.

There is no doubt that God loves us, we all know John 3:16-17, we know He wants us to repent Acts 3:19, 1 John 1:9. So those who love the Lord and knows the Lord loves them, honestly think that if we choose one method to seek God forgiveness over another He would not forgive us?

Totally off topic but I just wanted to say if anyone was questioning weather 7 days was literally 7 days or not2 Peter 3:8 I just noticed that, so thanks for asking the question or I might not have ever seen this passage. 😉
 
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Well it necessarily wasn’t an argument in the traditional sense. He came onto another Catholic forum being honest and hoping to learn. So I just kept further answering questions.
 
Ah, my miss-reading. There have been some on these forums who have been in arguments. Hopefully he will listen to your replies. Good luck, and God bless.
 
1 John 1:9 actually supports the sacrament of confession. The Greek word in this case is ‘homogeleo’ which means confessing by speaking and not a confession from your heart to God.
 
TexasLoneStar said:
Ultimately I said that if this was the way Christianity ultimately formed then the way the Sacrament of Confession works must be divine revelation and a fundamental, built-in part of the Christian faith.

How would yall counter this?
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Why do you want to counter 1john 1.9
We confess to God. We aren’t yoked to a person .
That’s what the. Roman constine Empire wanted to do yoke people to an organization. We have the ministry of reconciliation. Not just the religious elite. But denominational elites say different. As Jesus said which is easer “pick up your mat” or your “your sins are forgiven”
 
mike70 said:
If just confessing to God alone was all it took, then why make the Israelites go through animal sacrifice for forgiveness of sin? They also had to go to the temple and have a priest involved.
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Good point.
On the evening of that first day of the week, when the doors were locked, where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. The disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord. [Jesus] said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

John 20:19–23 NABRE
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One thing that can be said of a high percentage of “bible” Christians: they do not know their bible - even the 91% of the bible which they possess. There is a trusim which states that Catholics know less about more of the bible and Protestant know more about less of the bible. We see that played out here daily.

The bible says to confess our sins to one another - which we do at each mass in the confiteor. However, the Apostles and their successors have the power over sin as given by Christ in the bible!

Saint Paul forgave sins in the person of Christ - in the bible! There is a name for people who willfully ignore the scriptures. Saint Peter wrote about them in 2 Peter 3:16.

Baptists generally disdain or sometimes viscerally hate the Catholic Church. But, their emperor has no clothes! Baptistry did not exist until 1609 in England, when John Smyth developed those peculiar Baptist beliefs. But John Smyth rebelled, not only against the (outlawed in England) Catholic Church, but also against the Church of England - which he grew up in.

The burden of proof is on the Baptist to prove, from the bible alone, that the Apostles did not have power over sin and that Saint Paul did not forgive sin in the person of Christ. Of course, this is impossible to prove, as the bible states the exact opposite. As we know: hatred blinds one to the truth.

The Catholic Church has nothing to prove. Those outside of her never rest as they must constantly “prove” her wrong so that they may feel justified in dividing the Body of Christ.
 
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